Do Dispensationalists Take Things To Far?

eg, fix the quote tags

Hello, it might be fun to debate pre trib with you if you can stay on topic. My position is called Pre-wrath.

Here, let me cite every scripture that supports pre-trib......................................................................................that`s about it    ~---------------

Here's the current problem. It's a three-fold problem that evidences the concern expressed in this op. First, we should ALL be able to agree on what is plainly stated in the Bible. We may agree or disagree on the way different people read into scripture but that's not what I asked. I asked for a specific statement, a specific explicit statement, NOT and inferentially read verse. The correct answer is, "There is no such verse, Josh." THAT answer instantly creates agreement. Yes, we both now agree there is no such statement in the Bible. Once we have that agreement, I can then ask my next question which, in this case, I TOLD EVERYONE ABOUT AHEAD OF TIME!!! "Great, given the fact there is not one single verse explicitly stating a third temple of stone will be built..... what do you think about building a doctrine solely on inference? What do you think about building a doctrine solely on inference while claiming to read scripture literally? What do you think about building a doctrine solely based on inference while claiming to read scripture literally.... AND ignoring what is plainly stated and reading THAT literally?

Second, this is important because not only should we all be able to agree on what is plainly stated in the Bible, AND because we should ALL also build from those truths, but also because anyone refusing to acknowledge the truth is NOT posting in the Spirit of truth. The Spirit of God has absolutely no problem whatsoever saying, "There is no such verse in the Bible," because THAT is the truth. From the very beginning of this trade of posts about the temple of stone I made it very clear this is also about METHOD, and NOT just about the methodology of handling scripture, but the methodology of conversation, of HOW we discuss what we're discussing.

This business about the temple started because one specific poster claimed a belief in the doctrine of imminence, an "AnyTime Rapture," in his words. THAT is why I asked about the land, the temple, the priesthood, etc. That originally solicited poster has not been in the forum since I asked my questions but at least two other posters saw fit to chime in with their perspectives and none of them answered the question(s) asked. They just piled into the thread stuff no one remotely requested. I point all of this out because IF a Christian sincerely believes Jesus might come back at any time, then s/he cannot also be waiting on an assortment of other events prior to Christ's coming! In order for a Dispensationalist to genuinely believe Jesus can actually come back tomorrow s/he'd ALSO have to believe the land boundaries, the temple, the priesthood, and the animal sacrifices are all going to occur between now and tomorrow when Jesus comes back. So, we NECESSARILY find the Dispensational eschatology directly contradicts the doctrine of imminence! They do NOT actually believe Jesus may come back ANY time. What they believe is any time after U, V, X, Y, and Z occur.


Lastly, I am available to discuss the matter of inferentially constructing a doctrine with anyone who can and will politely and respectfully handle their end of the conversation. THIS op is about whether or not Dispensationalists go too far. ANYONE, Dispensationalist or not, who asserts man-made inferences over what is plainly states is going too far. The FACT of scripture is that in reference to ALL the Old Testament prophecies about a temple there was, in fact, TWO temples built. One was of stone and the other was of royal priests. The former was built by human hands and the latter was built, and is still being built, by God's hands. I can point to explicit statements in scripture to prove that and I won't take three or four posts to prove it.

Good morning, rockson 

First, a little advice about the forum and quote boxes. I recommend that when you want to post and start with a quote from some other poster you immediately stick some text in the one-line space below their quote box. This forum is a bit odd this way. If you delete the final lines of someone's quote it also erases the space for the respondent's comments or inquiries. It can be frustrating for all. Really messes up the formatting of a post. You can also use the html tags {quote}insert text{/quote} replacing the { with [. 


Second, you've just asked the other poster to discuss the pre-trib pov if he can stay on topic because you'd like to discuss your pre-wrath pov but neither is the topic of this opening post. The broaching of the tribulation was off-topic from the moment it was brought into the thread. You're asking him to stay off topic and be on topic when he does so. You're asking that of someone who has demonstrated at least an ability, if not a willful propensity to NOT stay on topic (even though I agree with his last sentence ).

I suggest you find a op that is intentionally and specifically on the pre-trib/wrath aspect of eschatology and broach your views there, or author an op of your own where you can take some onus and influence over the discussion you want to have rather than hijacking Obadiah's. This op is about whether or not Dispensationalists take things to far and while the opening post is about various content within Dispensational theology I've also pointed out the relationship between that "too far" content and the inability to discuss that specified content.  

Dripping with irony since this op is not on the topic of "pre trib." 


Don't take the bait. 

@josheb "Will they take this too far?"

Only when you see them piling wood at the base of the stake. In other words, some people see it one way and some people see it another way. 

It's just one of those things people are going to disagree on no matter how many scriptures are used or how much logic is used.

Breaking News!

JERUSALEM—Last week, ALL ISRAEL NEWS was one of two outlets that initially covered a story intriguing to religious Jews, Messianic Jews and Evangelical Christians who believe that the Third Temple must be built in Jerusalem before the coming – or Second Coming – of the Messiah.

“Five rabbi-approved red heifers arrived from Texas on Thursday to a ceremonious welcome at Ben-Gurion Airport – and touched off a whirlwind of speculation as to the prophetic significance of their presence in Israel and whether we are barreling toward a Third-Temple period or the ‘last days,’” wrote Nicole Jansezian, our news editor and senior correspondent.

She noted that “the cows have been inspected by rabbis and were found to be red and unblemished, which means they are ritually pure for sacrifice as stipulated under the law of Moses. In order for someone following Mosaic law to become ritually pure, the ashes of a red heifer are required, according to the Book of Numbers.”

Nicole reported that “the farmers, in Texas, knew enough of the requirements and did not tag the ears of these cows, leaving them unblemished,” explaining that “the Christian organization, Boneh Israel, located the cattle and, along with the Temple Institute, was responsible for getting them to Israel. Earlier in the year, rabbis from the Temple Institute went to Texas to inspect the cows.”

At the end of her article, she wrote that ALL ISRAEL NEWS would follow up on these developments specifically exploring two important questions:

“Does the arrival of the heifers in Israel set in motion the coming of the Messiah – or the return of Jesus, as Christians believe?”

“Does it mean we’ve entered the fast track toward the End Times and the Tribulation?”

This week, let’s carefully consider both questions.

WHAT IS THE OLD TESTAMENT SIGNIFICANCE OF THE RED HEIFER?

First, we must better understand the Old Testament significance of the red heifer, and its ashes, to modern-day rabbis and to those who follow the New Testament.

Only then can we properly understand its eschatological significance.

In the Book of Numbers, the God of Israel commanded Moses and Aaron – the first Levitical priest – that the ashes of a perfectly pure and unblemished red heifer would be needed to purify and consecrate the Levitical priests, and thus the holy places where these priests would serve the Lord.

“Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, ‘This is the statute of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel that they bring you an unblemished red heifer in which is no defect and on which a yoke has never been placed. You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and it shall be brought outside the camp and be slaughtered in his presence. Next Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle some of its blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times. Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight; its hide and its flesh and its blood, with its refuse, shall be burned. The priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet material and cast it into the midst of the burning heifer. The priest shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward come into the camp, but the priest shall be unclean until evening. The one who burns it shall also wash his clothes in water and bathe his body in water, and shall be unclean until evening. Now a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and deposit them outside the camp in a clean place, and the congregation of the sons of Israel shall keep it as water to remove impurity; it is purification from sin. The one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening; and it shall be a perpetual statute to the sons of Israel and to the alien who sojourns among them.” (Numbers 19:1-10)

It would be impossible for the priests to be ritually pure to operate the Tabernacle unless the ashes of a pure red heifer were obtained and handled properly.

Likewise, such ashes were needed to consecrate the priests who would serve in the First Temple, the one that was built under the supervision of Israel’s King Solomon.

Such ashes were also needed to consecrate the priests who would serve in the Second Temple – rebuilt under the efforts of Nehemiah, the governor of Jerusalem, and Ezra the priest and later dramatically expanded by the Roman King Herod some 2,000 years ago.

After the Romans destroyed the Second Temple and burned Jerusalem in 70 A.D., Jews have not had a holy sanctuary on Mount Moriah, widely known today as the “Temple Mount.”

Throughout the Old and New Testaments, the prophets spoke of another Temple – a Third Temple – that would be built in the “last days” of history.

After the prophetic rebirth of Israel in May 1948 – and the subsequent reunification of Jerusalem under Jewish Israeli sovereign control in June 1967 – many religious Jews – as well as Christians – began speculating as to when the Third Temple could be built, and praying for it to happen in their lifetime.

And thus, many have wondered when a ritually pure red heifer would emerge that could be sacrificed in preparation for the building and operation of that Third Temple.

WHAT DO RABBIS TODAY BELIEVE ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE RED HEIFER?

Today, most Jews in Israel and worldwide are traditional or even secular.

Most have not carefully studied the Torah or the prophets.

Thus, they are not familiar with Numbers 19.

Nor do they think much about a Third Temple.

Deeply religious Jews, however, know that the Temple is the only place where proper sacrifices can be made to cleanse people from their sins and receive the forgiveness of an Almighty God.

Thus, they believe it is critically important to get a Third Temple up and running as quickly as possible.

The Temple Mount Institute (TMI), mentioned earlier, is an Orthodox Jewish organization based in Jerusalem whose leaders are determined to build the Third Temple.

Not surprisingly, their leaders were eagerly awaiting – even actively seeking – the appearance of pure red heifers.

On their website, the TMI leadership maintains that the Jewish sage Maimonides wrote that the appearance of a “tenth red heifer” – after the nine used to consecrate the priests serving in the earlier Temples – “is associated with the Messianic era.”

“Does this perhaps mean that the appearance of a red heifer in these waning End Times is an indication, a forerunner of the appearance of the Messiah himself, who will officiate at its preparation?” they ask. “If there has been no red heifer for the past 2,000 years, perhaps it is because the time was not right; Israel was far from being ready. But now, what could it mean for the times we live in, to have the means for purification so close at hand? With the words of Maimonides in mind, we cannot help but wonder and pray: If there are now red heifers, is ours the era that will need them?”

To be sure, there are many obstacles to building the Third Temple.

One is the fact the Temple Mount is today the site of the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque, two of the most sacred buildings in the world for 1.8 billion Muslims.

Any effort to remove those Islamic buildings – or even to build the Third Temple next to those buildings without the broad and deep consent of Muslims – could trigger an apocalyptic war against Israel.

But as we have seen, another critical obstacle has been the long absence of a pure and unblemished red heifer that could be ritually and properly sacrificed by trained Levitical priests able to obtain the required ashes.

That’s why our story last week was noteworthy.

Religious Jews, like those who work for and support the Temple Mount Institute, are beginning to wonder if the Messianic age is about to dawn.