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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 24, 2022 7:39:32 GMT -8
johann Said: Was the repentant thief on the cross saved? 1) "And he said unto Jesus, Lord," (kai legen lesou) "And he said, Jesus," Savior or Deliverer, liberator, who sets men free from sin and death, Luk_4:18; Heb_2:14; Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36. He may have been encouraged by hearing Jesus pray for His murderers. 2) "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." (mnestheti mou horan elthes eis ten basilelan sou) "Remember me when you come into your kingdom," to intercede for sin, Heb_7:25; 1Jn_2:1-2. It was a cry for mercy, much as the publican prayed, Luk_18:13; Psa_106:4-5; Psa_145:18-19; Rom_10:9-10; 1Co_6:10-11.
That's the most common reply I always hear to the topic of "You must be water baptized" in order to be saved" Then the next statement is the thief on the cross was water baptized and his own perspiration. But of course, I always like to dig deeper than that. So I found this: The thief on the cross was taken to Paradise under the old dispensation, he did not need to be baptized, his situation was like OT saints who had died; the church had not even come into existence yet. Peter on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38 told prospective members of the church: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call." And this: Remember Jesus' own baptism? Mat.3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Baptism makes us sons also! Gal. 3:26-27 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
One thing to remember, Gal 3 is not water or physical baptism here. It is the spiritual baptism performed by God. I think alot of people see the english word baptize (which is really not a native english word to begin with) and automatically assume it means the physical baptism in water. The greek word, from which the english word was transliterized from (baptizo) is just an action verb of one being overwhelmed or immersed into something. Water was just one of the things one could be immersed into I wish they interpreted the word instead of make up a new word. I think there would be less arguments and confusion about what baptism is |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 24, 2022 8:15:55 GMT -8
eternallygratefulJust to clear up where I'm coming from on this topic. I'd go for: Baptism is an outward display of an Inward conversion. Is Baptism Really an Outward Sign of Inward Grace? Deep Dive>
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 24, 2022 8:26:12 GMT -8
johann said:
Why was Messiah baptized Obadiah, He had NO hamartia to confess..
I didn't want to enter into dialogue re "baptisms" but sure would like your answer to this.
Shalom brother.
J.
My Answer are the words of Jesus found in Matthew 3:15
The Baptism of Jesus
13At that time Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15“Let it be so now,” Jesus replied. “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this way.” Then John permitted Him.…
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Post by civic on Aug 24, 2022 8:29:30 GMT -8
johann said: Why was Messiah baptized Obadiah, He had NO hamartia to confess.. I didn't want to enter into dialogue re "baptisms" but sure would like your answer to this. Shalom brother. J.
My Answer are the words of Jesus found in Matthew 3:15 The Baptism of Jesus 13At that time Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15“Let it be so now,” Jesus replied. “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this way.” Then John permitted Him.… Yes that’s my final answer:) |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 24, 2022 8:35:12 GMT -8
eternallygratefulJust to clear up where I'm coming from on this topic. I'd go for: Baptism is an outward display of an Inward conversion. Is Baptism Really an Outward Sign of Inward Grace? Deep Dive> We use it as an outreach ministry as the ones who get baptized invite their families and friends, and are able to give a testimony to them and the world |
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Post by civic on Aug 24, 2022 8:53:34 GMT -8
Yes that’s my final answer:) That is not answering the question brother, maybe the Logos users can come up with the answer. J. Maybe you can enlighten us as I’m at work  |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 24, 2022 8:55:13 GMT -8
John 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit
this is why Jesus was baptised. To reveal who he is. Remember, Even the father spoke to everyone, This is my son, who I am well pleased….
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 24, 2022 9:01:53 GMT -8
Yes that’s my final answer:) That is not answering the question brother, maybe the Logos users can come up with the answer. J. Here you go straight from Logos Bible Software: In the Footsteps of the Master: Sermon Outlines on St. Mark's Gospel by J. H. B. Masterman Why was Jesus baptized, since He had no need of repentance? Perhaps the answer is indicated by His question to the Pharisees (St. Matt. 21:25). The King will claim immunity from no act that is included in the divinely appointed preparation for the kingdom. And while His baptism involved for Him no change of heart, it did involve a change of outlook. This change is expressed in the events connected with His baptism, as told by St. Mark. St. John tells us that the Baptist was permitted to see and hear what was invisible and inaudible to the crowds, but according to St. Mark the revelation was given primarily to our Lord Himself. 1. He Saw the Heavens being Rent Asunder.—It was as though the eternal world, pressing on the frontiers of the world of time and space, broke through at the moment when He was consecrated to His mission. The veil of the material world was rent (cf. St. Matt. 27:51), that a way might be opened from heaven to earth and from earth to heaven (Heb. 10:20). 2. The Descent of the Spirit.—Through the open heavens there came, not a symbol of judgment or awful power, but a Power that descended dove-like, as It hovered over the face of the waters as did the creative Power of God (Gen. 1:2). At the moment of His consecration, Jesus felt the caress of God, as love met love in the one life of the Father and Son. It was the assurance that the unity of the Godhead was still unbroken, though veiled in flesh among human things. 3. The Voice from Heaven.—Love comes down to earth, but love also abides in heaven. The assurance that every step of His earthly ministry was the fulfilment of the good pleasure of the Father came thus at the opening of His public career (St. John 8:29). It may be that the voice represents a deepening of our Lord’s consciousness of Sonship, the coming to maturity of the growth in wisdom (St. Luke 2:52) that belonged to His humanity. It means for us that He was the perfect expression of the whole will and purpose of God. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 24, 2022 9:30:03 GMT -8
Here you go straight from Logos Bible Software: In the Footsteps of the Master: Sermon Outlines on St. Mark's Gospel by J. H. B. Masterman Why was Jesus baptized, since He had no need of repentance? Perhaps the answer is indicated by His question to the Pharisees (St. Matt. 21:25). The King will claim immunity from no act that is included in the divinely appointed preparation for the kingdom. And while His baptism involved for Him no change of heart, it did involve a change of outlook. This change is expressed in the events connected with His baptism, as told by St. Mark. St. John tells us that the Baptist was permitted to see and hear what was invisible and inaudible to the crowds, but according to St. Mark the revelation was given primarily to our Lord Himself. 1. He Saw the Heavens being Rent Asunder.—It was as though the eternal world, pressing on the frontiers of the world of time and space, broke through at the moment when He was consecrated to His mission. The veil of the material world was rent (cf. St. Matt. 27:51), that a way might be opened from heaven to earth and from earth to heaven (Heb. 10:20). 2. The Descent of the Spirit.—Through the open heavens there came, not a symbol of judgment or awful power, but a Power that descended dove-like, as It hovered over the face of the waters as did the creative Power of God (Gen. 1:2). At the moment of His consecration, Jesus felt the caress of God, as love met love in the one life of the Father and Son. It was the assurance that the unity of the Godhead was still unbroken, though veiled in flesh among human things. 3. The Voice from Heaven.—Love comes down to earth, but love also abides in heaven. The assurance that every step of His earthly ministry was the fulfilment of the good pleasure of the Father came thus at the opening of His public career (St. John 8:29). It may be that the voice represents a deepening of our Lord’s consciousness of Sonship, the coming to maturity of the growth in wisdom (St. Luke 2:52) that belonged to His humanity. It means for us that He was the perfect expression of the whole will and purpose of God. ...and I don't agree with...Logos Bible Software: In the Footsteps of the Master: Sermon Outlines on St. Mark's Gospel by J. H. B. Masterman Sorry, I can be blunt, a character trait our Lord Christ Jesus is still working on. Read what the Rabbis are saying re water baptism and why Yeshua HaMashiach was baptized, here's a clue...identification, resemblance. J. Ok here is the deal I will make with you, when we get to Heaven, we can ask Our Lord Jesus why He was Baptized. In the meantime, if you would like to explain in your own words What you have learned from Rabbis on the water baptism of Jesus, I would love to hear it. Please Note...I'm not asking for a copy and paste I'm interested in hearing your understanding. |
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Post by civic on Aug 24, 2022 9:35:29 GMT -8
...and I don't agree with...Logos Bible Software: In the Footsteps of the Master: Sermon Outlines on St. Mark's Gospel by J. H. B. Masterman Sorry, I can be blunt, a character trait our Lord Christ Jesus is still working on. Read what the Rabbis are saying re water baptism and why Yeshua HaMashiach was baptized, here's a clue...identification, resemblance. J. Ok here is the deal I will make with you, when we get to Heaven, we can ask Our Lord Jesus why He was Baptized. In the meantime, if you would like to explain in your own words What you have learned from Rabbis on the water baptism of Jesus, I would love to hear it. Please Note...I'm not asking for a copy and paste I'm interested in hearing your understanding. Me too |
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Post by civic on Aug 24, 2022 10:49:39 GMT -8
Me too Still working brother? J. Until 5:30 PST |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 24, 2022 11:41:32 GMT -8
Ok here is the deal I will make with you, when we get to Heaven, we can ask Our Lord Jesus why He was Baptized. In the meantime, if you would like to explain in your own words What you have learned from Rabbis on the water baptism of Jesus, I would love to hear it. Please Note...I'm not asking for a copy and paste I'm interested in hearing your understanding. Patience dear brother Obadiah, "...when we all..get to heaven..what a glorious day that will be.." Are you a Logos user? I have posted links on questions that Jesus asked and wonder how many have read them. Amazing, Christ always asked a question WITH a question, a valuable lesson right there in the red letters, wonder why? Why was Christ Jesus baptized since He had NO sin/sins u·me·chat·ta·Tam to confess? Mat 3:14 But Yochanan would have deterred him, saying, I have need to submit to your tevilah [T.N. i.e., Moshiach’s tevilah], and yet you come to me? Mat 3:15 But answering him, Yehoshua said, Permit it now, for thus it is proper to fulfill all Tzidkat Hashem [Dan 9:24]. OJB By demanding not a "copy and paste" you cut my hands off brother since English is not my first lingo, I need an "Aaron" Lol! ὁ δὲ ’Ιωάννης διεκώλυεν αὐτὸν λέγων, ’Εγὼ χρείαν ἔχω ὑπὸ σοῦ βαπτισθῆναι, καὶ σὺ ἔρχῃ πρός με; ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ ’Ιησοῦς εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν, ῎Αϕες ἄρτι, οὕτως γὰρ πρέπον ἐστὶν ἡμῖν πληρῶσαι πᾶσαν δικαιοσύνην. τότε ἀϕίησιν αὐτόν. Now, we need a proper exegesis, not from the Puritans or Reformers, but from a Eastern viewpoint and illumination from the Holy Spirit. So, if you are a Logos user, anything on the Jewish resources or sources re this verse? J. ὁ δὲ ’Ιωάννης διεκώλυεν αὐτὸν λέγων, ’Εγὼ χρείαν ἔχω ὑπὸ σοῦ βαπτισθῆναι, καὶ σὺ ἔρχῃ πρός με; you can read that? How cool in that? |
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Post by gomer on Aug 29, 2022 4:41:43 GMT -8
Tts 3:5 refers to man trying to achieve justification by doing his OWN devised righteousness versus doing God's righteousness. where do you get this from? Please show me in titus chapter 1 where paul is arguing about self righteousness.. Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
SHow me where you see self righteous works in context? "works of righteousness we have done" refers to self-righteous works man devises for himself to do in order to obtain justification as in Romans 10:3 those Jews were lost for they went about establishing their OWN righteousness rather than obey GOD'S righteousness. Here is a breakdown of " works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves" per Tts 3:5: " (1) Human salvation is not achieved “by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves”(v. 5a). The term “works” can refer to efforts of human merit – of which one might boast (cf. Ephesians 2:9), or it may refer to acts of obedience required by God (cf. John 6:27-29). Clearly, in this instance, the former is in view. One cannot earn his salvation with meritorious deeds. Note the concluding phrase, “which we did ourselves.”
The root verb is poieo, which simply means to “do” something. J.H. Thayer noted, however, that the term may be used with “nouns describing a plan or course of action,” and he cited Titus 3:5 as an example (Greek Lexicon, p. 526). Paul’s meaning is this; No man has the ability to plan and execute a course of action by which he can achieve salvation on his own. Redemption, as system, proceeds from God alone.
(2) Following the phrase, “which we did ourselves,” there is a contrasting conjunction, alla, which indicates that an “opposing thought” follows. One is not saved by his own righteousness; rather salvation is by God’s mercy. The preposition dia (translated “through”) is employed, which suggests that “by the agency of” or “means of” the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit" salvation is received.
One thing is clear. The “washing” and the “renewing” are not a part of those works of human righteousness that are repudiated."www.christiancourier.com/articles/941-pauls-instruction-to-the-saints-of-creteWayne Jackson |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 29, 2022 4:55:51 GMT -8
where do you get this from? Please show me in titus chapter 1 where paul is arguing about self righteousness.. Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
SHow me where you see self righteous works in context? "works of righteousness we have done" refers to self-righteous works man devises for himself to do in order to obtain justification as in Romans 10:3 those Jews were lost for they went about establishing their OWN righteousness rather than obey GOD'S righteousness. Here is a breakdown of " works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves" per Tts 3:5: let me get this straight works of righteousness which we have done good deeds which we did in the past = works of self righteousness we have done? sorry bro. I can not do that to the word of God.. for 1 works of self righteousness are not good deeds. they are called evil deeds. They are called bloody rags (int he OT) they are called works of the flesh. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 29, 2022 5:07:32 GMT -8
johann Said: Was the repentant thief on the cross saved? 1) "And he said unto Jesus, Lord," (kai legen lesou) "And he said, Jesus," Savior or Deliverer, liberator, who sets men free from sin and death, Luk_4:18; Heb_2:14; Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36. He may have been encouraged by hearing Jesus pray for His murderers. 2) "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." (mnestheti mou horan elthes eis ten basilelan sou) "Remember me when you come into your kingdom," to intercede for sin, Heb_7:25; 1Jn_2:1-2. It was a cry for mercy, much as the publican prayed, Luk_18:13; Psa_106:4-5; Psa_145:18-19; Rom_10:9-10; 1Co_6:10-11.
That's the most common reply I always hear to the topic of "You must be water baptized" in order to be saved" Then the next statement is the thief on the cross was water baptized and his own perspiration. But of course, I always like to dig deeper than that. So I found this: The thief on the cross was taken to Paradise under the old dispensation, he did not need to be baptized, his situation was like OT saints who had died; the church had not even come into existence yet. Peter on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38 told prospective members of the church: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call." And this: Remember Jesus' own baptism? Mat.3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Baptism makes us sons also! Gal. 3:26-27 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
One thing to remember, Gal 3 is not water or physical baptism here. It is the spiritual baptism performed by God. You made the statement I underlined above based on theological bias, not on context. A basic principle of proper exegesis is to take words at their literal face value unless something in the context dictates otherwise: " The literal principle of biblical exegesis simply seeks to take a biblical text at face value unless the context gives a reason to understand it otherwise. When a passage speaks of a boat, then the understanding is that a literal boat is in mind." www.compellingtruth.org/biblical-exegesis.htmlF.F. Bruce: " baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning" (Questions Answered, p. 106) " We can get ourselves into an awful mess by not knowing how to interpret the Bible. However, we can avoid most of those problems by adopting the following approach as our starting point. This is often referred to as “the golden rule”. That is to simply take everything that is said at its literal, ordinary, face value meaning unless the words used, or the context, clearly indicate that you are meant to do otherwise." realchristianity.com/how-to-interpret-the-bible-the-golden-rule/#:~:text=This%20is%20often%20referred%20to%20as%20%E2%80%9C%20the,it%20is%20saying%20in%20plain%20and%20literal%20terms. " Interpretation must be based on the author’s intention of meaning and not the reader. Interpret the Bible literally (or normally) allowing for normal use of figurative language. Take the plain meaning of the text at face value." bible.org/seriespage/lesson-6-principles-biblical-interpretationI could cite other sources but these three should suffice. Gal 3:27 when taken at its normal, literal face value means "baptized" refers to a literal immersion for nothing in the context shows it to be used in a figurative sense. |
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