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Post by Obadiah on Jul 26, 2022 7:15:56 GMT -8
The biblical doctrine of salvation is one of the many special aspects of Christian faith, and it serves to illustrate the uniqueness of the Christian faith compared to all other religions. There are only two religions in the world: the religion of grace and the religion of works. In essence, all non-Christian religions in the world, large and small, are religions of works. Only biblical Christianity teaches that salvation is a free gift resulting solely from God’s grace. This makes Christianity unlike any other religion that has ever existed, past or present. With this in mind it's easy to see how a works salvation will try to become part of our salvation.
Christian salvation is unique, but it is also not without controversy, even within the church. Different interpretations exist, for example, on the meaning of the doctrine of election and whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. This is what I want to take a look at in this thread.
If salvation can be lost, it is vital that Christians are not given a false sense of security. If salvation is secure, it is vital that Christians do not anguish over a nonexistent possibility.
If salvation is truly by grace, we think there can be only one possible resolution to the issue.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.
Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
Romans 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants—not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all
Romans 11:5-6 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace
Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.
Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
2 Timothy 1:9-10 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago, 10 and now has manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
Hebrews 6:13-20 13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14 saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15 And thus Abraham, having patiently endured, obtained the promise. 16 Men indeed swear by a greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he interposed with an oath, 18 so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible that God should prove false, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek
1 Peter 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials,
1 John 2:25 And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.
1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.
I like what Lewis Sperry Chafer says about this topic, “The truth of eternal security is inherent in the nature of salvation itself.”
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 27, 2022 6:59:53 GMT -8
The Scriptures are clear that salvation is a gift.
Ephesians 2:8 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
John 10:28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Scripture also teaches that the grace of God is a gift given the believer.
First Corinthians 1:4 “the grace of God which was given you.”
Ephesians 3:7 “the gift of God’s grace.”
The Bible also says that we have been “justified as a gift”
Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 5:17 If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Now for the sixty-four thousand dollar question, Would God ever take back the gifts He has freely given? If salvation is a gift consisting of irreversible actions, can it ever be returned?
Romans 11:29 says that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
Consider this verse in other translations. Wuest renders it, “For the gifts in grace and the calling of God are with respect to a change of mind irrevocable.”
The Living Bible reads, “For God’s gift and his call can never be withdrawn; he will never go back on his promises.”
The Amplified Bible teaches, “For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]”
But there is an even stronger argument here: Scripture also teaches that it is actually the believer who is a gift from God the Father to His Son, Jesus Christ. Consider the following statements by Jesus Himself:
All that the Father gives me will come to me John 6:37.
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him (John 17:2).
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me John 17:6.
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours John 17:9.
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am and to see my glory John 17:24.
In all these verses, and others, Jesus tells us that every true believer in Christ has been a special gift from the Father to Him. Here are some questions to ponder...
Would Jesus ever refuse a gift from the Father? Is this even conceivable?
If Christians could lose their salvation, doesn’t this mean that the Father would have to take back those whom He gave to His Son as a special gift?
Would Jesus ever allow a precious gift from the Father to be sent to hell and eternally lost?
If so, why would God ever present a man or woman to his own Son as a gift in the first place—when He knew that one day the gift would be taken from Him and consigned to eternal judgment?
That is an impossibility because God’s purpose, omniscience, and character could not allow it.
That is why Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand” John 10:28
“All that the Father gives me will come to me and...I shall lose none of all that he has given me.… And I will raise him up at the last day” John 6:37-40
“I have not lost one of those you gave me” John 18:9.
Jesus Said it and I believe it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2022 11:39:07 GMT -8
I don't believe we need a form of eternal security to feel secure. We should not be trusting a doctrine anyway, we should be directly trusting God himself. OSAS assumes any promise it finds in the Bible is unconditional, but this assumption is unwarranted. Consider this verse: "I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!" 1 Sam. 2:30.The original promise did not directly address the conditions involved, they were assumed from other Bible passages. OSAS assumes ALL warnings that sound salvific HAVE to necessarily be addressing unsaved people who are "almost" saved, but these warnings both describe elements of salvation in those they are addressed to, and they also make absolutely no sense to be addressed to people that have no commitment or belief in God anyway, for those people have no promise of salvation, nor can they fall from anything, nor have the partaken of Christ, nor have they escaped corruption. Rejecting OSAS does not mean you have to confess every single sin every second of every day or you instantly lose your salvation, nor does it even mean you have to leave in fear and anxiety and worry about your salvation. These things are gross straw men that don't logically follow. Rejecting OSAS means you take God's warnings as if they actually applied, but in so doing, it drives you even deeper to grace, dependence, trust, reliance, and faith in the merits and strength of Christ. God does not ask us to do what we cannot do, but always provides the grace for it.
Rejecting OSAS does not mean salvation by works. It is a logical error to insist that an action that produces a result necessarily means an attempt to merit it. Christ asks us to meet non-meritorious requirements that are easily achievable and only require trust in Christ's merit and not our own.
There is no single verse anywhere that indicates you can reject and leave your faith in Christ, and still expect salvation. And so many forms of OSAS become completely legalistic, the very thing they "claim" to want to save you from, by preaching you can't be saved without believing OSAS, or that if you later fall away it means you were never saved at all. If you have to bear fruit to prove you are saved, this is logically no different than works salvation.
Don't listen to the devil offering a false security. Ask God directly and persistently, and he will show you that you don't have to believe the lie of Eternal Security to be saved, nor do you have to live in fear without it.
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 28, 2022 5:11:03 GMT -8
Here in John Jesus tells us, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one”. John 10:27-30
Here are five distinct points made by Jesus:
1. His sheep hear His voice.
2. He knows them.
3. They follow Him.
4. He gives them eternal life.
5. They shall never perish because:
a. His Father gave them to Him;
b. No one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand because He is greater than all;
c. He and the Father are One; therefore, no one can snatch them out of His hand either.
Could eternal security be more clearly stated?
The category of “no one” is every believer, no believer is excluded from this category. So no one, not even the believer, can take himself from the Father’s hand.
If we examine other translations, we again see the emphasis of this passage.
The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28: “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed. And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.”
My personal favorite, Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament renders it, “And they shall positively not perish, never.”
Again, what could be clearer?
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 28, 2022 7:21:00 GMT -8
If you and I have any part in maintaining our salvation, it will be difficult to live with much assurance because we blow it on a daily basis as we are told in 1 John 1:8-10.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Actually, the whole epistle of 1 John is about assure a group of people, that were in fact saved and had the assurance of eternal life: These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. —1 John 5:13
Where there is no assurance of God’s acceptance, there is no peace. Where there is no peace, there is no joy. Where there is no joy, there is a limitation on one’s ability to love unconditionally. Why? Because a person with no assurance is by definition partially motivated by fear. Fear and love do not mingle well. One will always dilute the other. Furthermore, fear spills over into worry. Let’s be realistic for a moment. If my salvation is not a settled issue, how can I be anxious for nothing as in Phil. 4:6?
Do not fret or have any anxiety about anything, but in every circumstance and in everything, by prayer and petition (definite requests), with thanksgiving, continue to make your wants known to God.
7 And God’s peace [shall be yours, that tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and being content with its earthly lot of whatever sort that is, that peace] which transcends all understanding shall garrison and mount guard over your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
If Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost, and yet we can somehow become unsaved—and therefore undo what Christ came to do. I know of no one powerful enough to undo what Jesus accomplished on the cross.
Also at stake here is the extent of God’s forgiveness. When Christ died, which of your sins did He die for? Which sins were you forgiven of when you trusted Him as Savior? If the sins you commit after becoming a Christian can annul your relationship with the Savior, clearly those sins were not covered at Calvary. Forgiven is forgiven. To differentiate between forgiven and unforgiven sins is to make a distinction foreign to Scripture. The timing of your sins is irrelevant since they were all in the future from the perspective of the Cross. To disregard eternal security is to take away from what happened at Calvary.
Salvation by faith is at stake. Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. (That trick never works) In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:9
If salvation is not forever, salvation cannot be through faith alone.
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 29, 2022 6:10:51 GMT -8
Some people reject the teaching of eternal security out of simple bias: They just don’t like it. For them, the issue is not what Scripture says but what they wish to believe. No amount of Scripture, logic, or common sense will convince some people to change their minds. Again, the doctrine of eternal punishment is disbelieved by most people today, even some Christians, not because the Bible does not teach it but because people wish not to believe it. In all such cases, the Scriptures that support a given doctrine are either ignored or reinterpreted into conformity with what people prefer to believe. The problem is never with any doctrine that is truly biblical, but only with those people who refuse to accept it for whatever reason.
I think the main reason that some reject the teaching of eternal security is a natural tendency toward self-sufficiency or pride. If we must keep ourselves saved in order to not be lost, the simple conclusion is that we have something to boast about concerning the quality of our performance in comparison to those who have never kept themselves saved. Salvation is ultimately dependent upon us for, in the end, even God cannot save us unless we allow it.
But in effect, isn’t this is a form of earning our salvation by our own righteousness? And isn’t such a teaching thoroughly rejected in Scripture? Granted, most Christians who believe that salvation can be lost do not think in these exact terms, but if they are trusting in their own performance to keep themselves saved, isn’t this the only logical conclusion?
The really bad news of this belief is that it denies the doctrine that salvation is entirely by grace. God tells us that boasting is excluded if salvation is by grace through faith: “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith”
Romans 3:22-27 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
Galatians 1:6-8 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 10:40:11 GMT -8
Could eternal security be more clearly stated?
100% yes, it could be more clearly stated.
For this promise to mean eternal security it must with absolute clarity and precision make it clear that there are no conditions and variables that could apply to it.
This is a presupposition brought to the text from man made ideologies, that clearly does not fit the verse I quoted nor all the times the Bible gives clear conditional warnings that express an actual potential and hypothetical.
To make someone "feel secure" by giving them hundreds of warnings that don't apply to them but sound like they do, is the most unreliable and dishonest way God could possibly bring security to us.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 11:42:38 GMT -8
Also when you say "by faith" you are implying we have to do something volitionally to apply the Work of the Cross.
Under the logic that if you do anything it is meritorious works added to the Cross, you have to completely eliminate all free will and say a person is born saved.
But the Bible says we are born children of wrath, therefore the Atonement and Merits of Jesus logically have to be conditionally applied, since there is a point in time when they are not.
If you claim fear and love "can't mix," you have thrown out the beginning of wisdom and knowledge itself, which Scripture clearly says is the fear of the Lord. Even Christ clearly said "fear him."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 11:46:24 GMT -8
In conclusion OSAS is actually that doctrine that brings man-made philosophical rationalizations to dismiss the clear warnings of Scripture and mischaracterizes grace as having to only be monergism. Both of these do not match the Bible, nor are they confirmed by the Holy Spirit, nor do they match the experience of devout believers we later find fallen away. Should we believe a lie just to make ourselves feel secure? I think the clear answer is, no.
By the way, this is a great thread to start the forum off with, and I think you are a very polite interlocuter!
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 29, 2022 13:11:58 GMT -8
In conclusion OSAS is actually that doctrine that brings man-made philosophical rationalizations to dismiss the clear warnings of Scripture and mischaracterizes grace as having to only be monergism. Both of these do not match the Bible, nor are they confirmed by the Holy Spirit, nor do they match the experience of devout believers we later find fallen away. Should we believe a lie just to make ourselves feel secure? I think the clear answer is, no.
By the way, this is a great thread to start the forum off with, and I think you are a very polite interlocuter!
Thank you, feel free to start your own thread on your favorite Bible topic. I'm sure I could learn something from it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 14:13:39 GMT -8
You're so kind, I'm praying for you. I have a lot of posts on: theos.org/forum/I may post some more here. |
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 29, 2022 14:45:42 GMT -8
I'm sorry I thought Chalcedon told you I was Predestined from carm. I read your posts there all the time. I checked out theos.org/forum/ and read your post Re: OT Saul's Salvation and Fall From Grace?. It seems a lot cooler there as compared to carm. I like to hear what people that know what they are talking about have to say as I can learn something. I'm not into the sword fighting and mocking and ridicule thing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 15:35:59 GMT -8
I'm sorry I thought Chalcedon told you I was Predestined from carm. I read your posts there all the time. I checked out theos.org/forum/ and read your post Re: OT Saul's Salvation and Fall From Grace?. It seems a lot cooler there as compared to carm. I like to hear what people that know what they are talking about have to say as I can learn something. I'm not into the sword fighting and mocking and ridicule thing.
Ohhh, I asked Chalcedon who you are but I think he is busy right now, lol.
Man they deleted the post just because I quoted him, it's absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah, all that hostility is just not fun and not very loving.
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 29, 2022 15:52:41 GMT -8
I'm sorry I thought Chalcedon told you I was Predestined from carm. I read your posts there all the time. I checked out theos.org/forum/ and read your post Re: OT Saul's Salvation and Fall From Grace?. It seems a lot cooler there as compared to carm. I like to hear what people that know what they are talking about have to say as I can learn something. I'm not into the sword fighting and mocking and ridicule thing.
Ohhh, I asked Chalcedon who you are but I think he is busy right now, lol.
Man they deleted the post just because I quoted him, it's absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah, all that hostility is just not fun and not very loving.
I saw that. It was a good post. I asked Chalcedon to start a thread here about the character and attributes of God. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 4:31:03 GMT -8
Some interesting debates:
NOTE: I do not fully support the anti-OSAS views in all their doctrine but they still make some good points.
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