|
|
Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 29, 2022 10:25:01 GMT -8
So first, you told me you showed me in the greek Then you respond when I asked where. And can not find your post. Then I asked you to show me in context of pauls words. Where he said these were only works of the flesh and you can not do that either. You just show me (in blue) what you think Paul meant to say. Thank you. But I will go with paul on this one. Since you can not show me literally where he meant anything but (good deeds) in his letter to titus.. since works of the flesh are NOT Good deeds.. as I have tried to explain to you a few times now. Paul NEVER once called them good deeds.. He called them works of the law. Or works of the flesh. NEVER did he call them works of righteousness. Or righteous deeds I have now posted it TWICE in blue colored font. It is you who has failed. Tts 3:5 makes a clear distinction between works of righteousness man has devised for himself contrasted against God's plan of salvation that requires water baptism (washing of regeneration). WASHING OF REGENERATION IS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.. 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
I have shown this to you a few times
Water baptism IS A WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS..
Spirit baptism IS A WORK OF GOD
|
|
|
|
Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 29, 2022 10:26:28 GMT -8
if those works are done to 1. Gain salvation 2. Keep salvation 3. Keep you from losing salvation. Then they are works of self righteousness. and are in Gods eyes. works of bloody rags or evil deeds.. because they are motivated to serve self, not serve others. ie. they are not based on love (expecting nothing in return) but self (expecting something in return) According to you maybe, but according to Scripture #2 & 3 are necessary, and flow from God-righteuosness, from grace. Again, the obligation to be righteous does not go away with the new covenant, as if sin no longer matters to God. We're enabled now to overcome sin, by the Spirit, and we must. #2 and #3 are only necessary according to your church Paul calls those who say we are found in the spirit but must perfect in the flesh fools You should listen to paul. Not your church. |
|
|
|
Post by hansen on Aug 29, 2022 12:02:26 GMT -8
Historically the church has viewed our responses to God's commands to be connected to 1) what we know, and, 2) what we're capable of doing. God is not a tyrant. But more will be expected of those given more, a principle outlined in Luke 12:48. Presumably, had the thief somehow been given more time and opportunity, he'd have come down from the cross and been baptized among other things. Exactly which church are we talking about? Because what we know and what we are capable of knowing would include a lot of variables. And presumptions can be a real slippery slope. No one can count on being given more time and more opportunity. What happened at the Cross is exactly what was meant to happen. Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.” 2 Corinthians 6:2 No one knows the day he will die. And after death comes the judgment ( Hebrews 9:27). The rich fool in Jesus’ parable ( Luke 12:16–20) thought he had plenty of time to enjoy life, but God had news for him: “This very night your life will be demanded from you” (verse 20). We have today—we have the present moment—and we should use it wisely. Also, you have Deathbed Conversions they are generally thought to occur when a Repentant sinner is saved while on his or her deathbed. And if that man genuinely repents and seeks God, God will grant him eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ. The keyword, it goes without saying, is genuinely, because God certainly knows whether we’re just faking it. I think it would be a little over the top I want to perform a baptismal ceremony when someone's lying dying. That would be like... hang on there a minute Sir. Stay with Me, we need to perform the baptismal ceremony otherwise... Well, we should agree that there can be only one church that Christ established, and that it should have a unity of faith. Going by Scripture alone such unity is impossible, incidentally. Either way, studying early church teachings, histories, the ECFs, councils, etc, we can understand what the universal church in the east and west believed and taught. All true that we should use the present moment wisely-and continue to do so every moment. Some will prove to be good soil, others not so good. We'll know with perfect certainty who persevered until the end only on judgment day -2 Cor 5:10. Some people want baptsim on their death bed. Whether it's sincere faith or just fear, God, alone will know, as you said. Either way your last paragraph is consistent with what I said. |
|
|
|
Post by hansen on Aug 29, 2022 12:04:33 GMT -8
According to you maybe, but according to Scripture #2 & 3 are necessary, and flow from God-righteuosness, from grace. Again, the obligation to be righteous does not go away with the new covenant, as if sin no longer matters to God. We're enabled now to overcome sin, by the Spirit, and we must. #2 and #3 are only necessary according to your church Paul calls those who say we are found in the spirit but must perfect in the flesh fools You should listen to paul. Not your church. I'll listen to Christ. My church just happened to listen well, too. His church heard Him at the beginning, and we can find that understanding throughout early church history. And Paul agrees with us anyway. He says unless we put to death the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit, we will not have eternal life. |
|
|
|
Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 29, 2022 13:28:34 GMT -8
#2 and #3 are only necessary according to your church Paul calls those who say we are found in the spirit but must perfect in the flesh fools You should listen to paul. Not your church. I'll listen to Christ. My church just happened to listen well, too. His church heard Him at the beginning, and we can find that understanding throughout early church history. And Paul agrees with us anyway. He says unless we put to death the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit, we will not have eternal life. If you listened to christ. You would not listen to your church. Sorry Bro. But I can;t follow your teachings. |
|
|
|
Post by gomer on Aug 29, 2022 14:02:55 GMT -8
I have now posted it TWICE in blue colored font. It is you who has failed. Tts 3:5 makes a clear distinction between works of righteousness man has devised for himself contrasted against God's plan of salvation that requires water baptism (washing of regeneration). WASHING OF REGENERATION IS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.. 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
I have shown this to you a few times
Water baptism IS A WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS..
Spirit baptism IS A WORK OF GOD
Nowhere does the Bible define water baptism as a work that man does. As I posted earlier, God is the one doing the work in removing the body of sin (Col 2) when one passively submits himself to God in water baptism....one has faith in the operation of God when one submits to God in water baptism. Even Martin Luther understood this therefore had no objections to water baptism yet many today have taken Luther's faith onlyism to a greater extremism than Luther did himself...... apologeticspress.org/martin-luther-speaks-on-faith-only-and-baptism-958/There is no baptism with the HS that occurs today, just the water baptism of Christ's great commission which is the one baptism in effect today.....that saves, that is commanded, that is how disciples are made, that is to be taught and that lasts till the end of time. |
|
|
|
Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 29, 2022 15:45:57 GMT -8
WASHING OF REGENERATION IS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.. 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
I have shown this to you a few times
Water baptism IS A WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS..
Spirit baptism IS A WORK OF GOD
Nowhere does the Bible define water baptism as a work that man does. As I posted earlier, God is the one doing the work in removing the body of sin (Col 2) when one passively submits himself to God in water baptism....one has faith in the operation of God when one submits to God in water baptism. Even Martin Luther understood this therefore had no objections to water baptism yet many today have taken Luther's faith onlyism to a greater extremism than Luther did himself...... apologeticspress.org/martin-luther-speaks-on-faith-only-and-baptism-958/There is no baptism with the HS that occurs today, just the water baptism of Christ's great commission which is the one baptism in effect today.....that saves, that is commanded, that is how disciples are made, that is to be taught and that lasts till the end of time. God does not immerse you in water, Your pastor or whoever baptizes you does. If the baptism with the HS does not occur today. You and I have no hope. We will die in our sin. Because we have no hope that God will give us his MERCY through the washing (baptism) of regeneration (new birth) of the Holy Spirit |
|
|
|
Post by hansen on Aug 29, 2022 18:15:29 GMT -8
I'll listen to Christ. My church just happened to listen well, too. His church heard Him at the beginning, and we can find that understanding throughout early church history. And Paul agrees with us anyway. He says unless we put to death the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit, we will not have eternal life. If you listened to christ. You would not listen to your church. Sorry Bro. But I can;t follow your teachings. And its obvious to the initated that you've been listening to many who've come before you. |
|
|
|
Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 29, 2022 20:12:39 GMT -8
let me get this straight works of righteousness which we have done good deeds which we did in the past = works of self righteousness we have done? sorry bro. I can not do that to the word of God.. for 1 works of self righteousness are not good deeds. they are called evil deeds. They are called bloody rags (int he OT) they are called works of the flesh. ANY type of “Work” that you put forth that you think “GOT” you Saved, or is “ KEEPING” you Saved is Nothing But a * DEAD* Work......When It comes to “getting” Saved or “staying” Saved, it’s Two Things and Two Things ONLY—- #1 The Blood Of Jesus. #2 Your TOTAL FAITH in #1 .......Maybe you have decided to be like the Galatians who “Started out so well” But then started going down the wrong road thinking that “ They” had to ADD to Paul’s Gospel That mentioned **NO** types of “ works”.......Paul preached that all one had to do to be Saved was to Believe that Jesus died for your Sins and Rose from the grave......ADD to that with ANYTHiNG and you “Fall From Grace” and are “ Severed from Christ”....If That does not Scare you, It Should.....Adding to the Gospel Of Grace is equivalent to saying that The Blood Of Jesus might be “Essential” —— it just ain’t “ADEQUATE”........I think that God Frowns on that type of thinking....SERIOUSLY Frowns! Yes, everyone here agrees that works of self-righteouness are not good deeds. That's been the point here throughout in fact. |
|
|
|
Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 29, 2022 20:14:56 GMT -8
Sorry.....the computer Dotard put this in the wrong place in the previous post....
ANY type of “Work” that you put forth that you think “GOT” you Saved, or is “ KEEPING” you Saved is Nothing But a * DEAD* Work......When It comes to “getting” Saved or “staying” Saved, it’s Two Things and Two Things ONLY—- #1 The Blood Of Jesus. #2 Your TOTAL FAITH in #1 .......Maybe you have decided to be like the Galatians who “Started out so well” But then started going down the wrong road thinking that “ They” had to ADD to Paul’s Gospel That mentioned **NO** types of “ works”.......Paul preached that all one had to do to be Saved was to Believe that Jesus died for your Sins and Rose from the grave......ADD to that with ANYTHiNG and you “Fall From Grace” and are “ Severed from Christ”....If That does not Scare you, It Should.....Adding to the Gospel Of Grace is equivalent to saying that The Blood Of Jesus might be “Essential” —— it just ain’t “ADEQUATE”........I think that God Frowns on that type of thinking....SERIOUSLY Frowns!
|
|
|
|
Post by hansen on Aug 29, 2022 21:34:58 GMT -8
Sorry.....the computer Dotard put this in the wrong place in the previous post.... ANY type of “Work” that you put forth that you think “GOT” you Saved, or is “ KEEPING” you Saved is Nothing But a * DEAD* Work......When It comes to “getting” Saved or “staying” Saved, it’s Two Things and Two Things ONLY—- #1 The Blood Of Jesus. #2 Your TOTAL FAITH in #1 .......Maybe you have decided to be like the Galatians who “Started out so well” But then started going down the wrong road thinking that “ They” had to ADD to Paul’s Gospel That mentioned **NO** types of “ works”.......Paul preached that all one had to do to be Saved was to Believe that Jesus died for your Sins and Rose from the grave......ADD to that with ANYTHiNG and you “Fall From Grace” and are “ Severed from Christ”....If That does not Scare you, It Should.....Adding to the Gospel Of Grace is equivalent to saying that The Blood Of Jesus might be “Essential” —— it just ain’t “ADEQUATE”........I think that God Frowns on that type of thinking....SERIOUSLY Frowns! God is seriously pleased when, by His grace, with His life in us, we set about to do His will in whatever way we can, who strive to increase the seed of righteousness, the love, He’s planted in us at justification. He frowns on those who bury that gift. You don’t fully understand the nature and role of faith, or justification. |
|
|
|
Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 30, 2022 3:16:31 GMT -8
If you listened to christ. You would not listen to your church. Sorry Bro. But I can;t follow your teachings. And its obvious to the initated that you've been listening to many who've come before you. yawn.. mind if I ask why you come to places like this? You can't discuss the word when you do not even believe YOU can interpret the word correctly. in fear you may get it wrong. and you MUST listen to men. All you can do do is attack others? Why don;t you find a catholic chat where you can be like minded? |
|
|
|
Post by gomer on Aug 30, 2022 3:35:32 GMT -8
Nowhere does the Bible define water baptism as a work that man does. As I posted earlier, God is the one doing the work in removing the body of sin (Col 2) when one passively submits himself to God in water baptism....one has faith in the operation of God when one submits to God in water baptism. Even Martin Luther understood this therefore had no objections to water baptism yet many today have taken Luther's faith onlyism to a greater extremism than Luther did himself...... apologeticspress.org/martin-luther-speaks-on-faith-only-and-baptism-958/There is no baptism with the HS that occurs today, just the water baptism of Christ's great commission which is the one baptism in effect today.....that saves, that is commanded, that is how disciples are made, that is to be taught and that lasts till the end of time. God does not immerse you in water, Your pastor or whoever baptizes you does. If the baptism with the HS does not occur today. You and I have no hope. We will die in our sin. Because we have no hope that God will give us his MERCY through the washing (baptism) of regeneration (new birth) of the Holy Spirit God is the One doing the work in removing the body of sin when one submits to baptism, man is totally passive therefore baptism is not defined in the Bible as a work that man does. Baptism with the HS does not exist today. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone commanded to be baptized with the HS, nowhere in the Bible says baptism with the HS saves. Yet Christ's water baptism of the great commission is commanded and does save therefore for one to be born again he must be water baptized...born of water. Jn 3:5---------born of water >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom Mt 7:21-----do the will of the Father >>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom Since there is but one way to be saved/enter the kingdom, no alternatives. then there is a definite connection between being born of water and DOING the will of the Father. God has commanded water baptism therefore those who obey this command are doing the will of the Father and are therefore born again...born of water. There is a required doing on the part of man for man to be born again and that doing is submitting to God in water baptism whereby God does the work of removing the body of sin THEN man can walk in newness of life. |
|
|
|
Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 30, 2022 3:50:58 GMT -8
God does not immerse you in water, Your pastor or whoever baptizes you does. If the baptism with the HS does not occur today. You and I have no hope. We will die in our sin. Because we have no hope that God will give us his MERCY through the washing (baptism) of regeneration (new birth) of the Holy Spirit God is the One doing the work in removing the body of sin when one submits to baptism, man is totally passive therefore baptism is not defined in the Bible as a work that man does. Baptism with the HS does not exist today. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone commanded to be baptized with the HS, nowhere in the Bible says baptism with the HS saves. Yet Christ's water baptism of the great commission is commanded and does save therefore for one to be born again he must be water baptized...born of water. Jn 3:5---------born of water >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom Mt 7:21-----do the will of the Father >>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom Since there is but one way to be saved/enter the kingdom, no alternatives. then there is a definite connection between being born of water and DOING the will of the Father. God has commanded water baptism therefore those who obey this command are doing the will of the Father and are therefore born again...born of water. There is a required doing on the part of man for man to be born again and that doing is submitting to God in water baptism whereby God does the work of removing the body of sin THEN man can walk in newness of life. is a greek word. It means to be plunged into, to be immersed into. to be overwhelmed. to be placed into. when we see it, we need to taker ITS defenition. because it is NOT a native english word The bible says we were immersed into Christ (baptised) it is not a command, it is something that happened. It Also says we were placed into (baptized) his death. again, this is not a command, it is something that occurred. in both cased. God is the one who did the immersing/baptizing. and it has nothing to do with water. There is no command to be anointed by the spirit either. It is something that happens. Same with the sealing of the spirit. there is no command, yet we are told to those who have been born of God that they are sealed with the spirit who is a pledge of Gods promise until resurrection day. PS. John 3 is not water baptism./ Not once when Jesus told nicodemus HOW to be born again, did he tell him to be baptized. |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Aug 30, 2022 5:10:31 GMT -8
We cannot take away the commands of Jesus and the Apostles on our obedience and responsibility to deny self.
Jesus teaching
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?
Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it
John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples
John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you
John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments
John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching:
1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith
Paul's teaching:
Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be !
Galatians 5
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Colossians 3
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.
Peters Teaching
1 Peter 1
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
1 Peter 4
As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.
2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
|
|
