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Post by gomer on Aug 30, 2022 5:28:43 GMT -8
We cannot take away the commands of Jesus and the Apostles on our obedience and responsibility to deny self. Jesus teaching Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Luke 6:46 Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say? Luke 11:28 Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it John 8:31 If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples John 15:14 You are My friends if you do what I command you John 13:17 If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. John 14:15 If you love Me you will keep My commandments John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching: 1 John 2 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. 1 John 2 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. 1 John 3 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 4 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. 1 John 5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith Paul's teaching: Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be ! Galatians 5 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Colossians 3 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Ephesians 2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. Titus 2:11-15 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you. Peters Teaching 1 Peter 1 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Peter 4 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 2 Peter 1:3-11 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. With all the verses you cited, it is still amazing how some people still think that they can be saved apart from obedience, that one can be disobedient/rebellious to God's will yet God will unconditionally save them anyway. And Paul's point "Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be !" Because the Christian is saved by grace does not mean the Christian can live any old way he wants to. The Christian must live in obedience to be recipients of God's grace. We each are living our lives serving either "obedience unto righteousness" or serving "sin unto death". |
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Post by gomer on Aug 30, 2022 5:41:32 GMT -8
God is the One doing the work in removing the body of sin when one submits to baptism, man is totally passive therefore baptism is not defined in the Bible as a work that man does. Baptism with the HS does not exist today. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone commanded to be baptized with the HS, nowhere in the Bible says baptism with the HS saves. Yet Christ's water baptism of the great commission is commanded and does save therefore for one to be born again he must be water baptized...born of water. Jn 3:5---------born of water >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom Mt 7:21-----do the will of the Father >>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom Since there is but one way to be saved/enter the kingdom, no alternatives. then there is a definite connection between being born of water and DOING the will of the Father. God has commanded water baptism therefore those who obey this command are doing the will of the Father and are therefore born again...born of water. There is a required doing on the part of man for man to be born again and that doing is submitting to God in water baptism whereby God does the work of removing the body of sin THEN man can walk in newness of life. is a greek word. It means to be plunged into, to be immersed into. to be overwhelmed. to be placed into. when we see it, we need to taker ITS defenition. because it is NOT a native english word The bible says we were immersed into Christ (baptised) it is not a command, it is something that happened. It Also says we were placed into (baptized) his death. again, this is not a command, it is something that occurred. in both cased. God is the one who did the immersing/baptizing. and it has nothing to do with water. There is no command to be anointed by the spirit either. It is something that happens. Same with the sealing of the spirit. there is no command, yet we are told to those who have been born of God that they are sealed with the spirit who is a pledge of Gods promise until resurrection day. PS. John 3 is not water baptism./ Not once when Jesus told nicodemus HOW to be born again, did he tell him to be baptized. In Acts 2:38 'be baptized' is an imperative, a command, a necessity not an option. Jesus in Jn 3 said ye MUST be born again with must making it a necessity, not an option. The eunuch obeyed God's command to be water baptized and he was water baptized by Phillip...the eunuch obediently submitted himself to God in water baptism and God did the work or removing the body of sin and the eunuch went on his way rejoicing. Jn 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". In v5 Jesus tells HOW a man is born again "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Being born of water is part of the HOW one is born again with water in the context (Jn 3:23) referring to water baptism. When one obeys by submitting to water baptism one is then and only then DOING the will of the Father (Mt 7:21) whereby one can then enter the kingdom. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 30, 2022 5:50:53 GMT -8
Baptizo is a greek word. It means to be plunged into, to be immersed into. to be overwhelmed. to be placed into. when we see it, we need to taker ITS defenition. because it is NOT a native english word The bible says we were immersed into Christ (baptised) it is not a command, it is something that happened. It Also says we were placed into (baptized) his death. again, this is not a command, it is something that occurred. in both cased. God is the one who did the immersing/baptizing. and it has nothing to do with water. There is no command to be anointed by the spirit either. It is something that happens. Same with the sealing of the spirit. there is no command, yet we are told to those who have been born of God that they are sealed with the spirit who is a pledge of Gods promise until resurrection day. PS. John 3 is not water baptism./ Not once when Jesus told nicodemus HOW to be born again, did he tell him to be baptized. In Acts 2:38 'be baptized' is an imperative, a command, a necessity not an option. Jesus in Jn 3 said ye MUST be born again with must making it a necessity, not an option. The eunuch obeyed God's command to be water baptized and he was water baptized by Phillip...the eunuch obediently submitted himself to God in water baptism and God did the work or removing the body of sin and the eunuch went on his way rejoicing. Jn 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". In v5 Jesus tells HOW a man is born again "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Being born of water is part of the HOW one is born again with water in the context (Jn 3:23) referring to water baptism. When one obeys by submitting to water baptism one is then and only then DOING the will of the Father (Mt 7:21) whereby one can then enter the kingdom. Acts 2:38. Peter tells EVERYONE to repent. and they would recieve the gift of the spirit. He then tells INDUVIDUALS to be baptised because they recieved remission of sin. Again, the greek would be your best friend. In john 3. When Jesus told nicodemus HOW to be born again or born of water and spirit. he said this 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Can you please tell me where the command to be baptized is?? Because I do not see it, if it is that important. then why did Jesus forget to tell him to be baptized?
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Post by civic on Aug 30, 2022 5:58:19 GMT -8
In the great commission Jesus instruction to the disciples/ Apostles was to make disciples- baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit teaching them to do all that I have commanded you. See Matthew 28:18-20.
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
hope this helps !!!
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 30, 2022 6:14:51 GMT -8
In the great commission Jesus instruction to the disciples/ Apostles was to make disciples- baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit teaching them to do all that I have commanded you. See Matthew 28:18-20. "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” hope this helps !!! Amen, Baptize THEM,, they are already saved.. |
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Post by civic on Aug 30, 2022 6:17:48 GMT -8
In the great commission Jesus instruction to the disciples/ Apostles was to make disciples- baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit teaching them to do all that I have commanded you. See Matthew 28:18-20. "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” hope this helps !!! Amen, Baptize THEM,, they are already saved.. Yes the first act of obedience is baptism after salvation- after becoming a disciple- a follower of Christ. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 30, 2022 6:21:21 GMT -8
Amen, Baptize THEM,, they are already saved.. Yes the first act of obedience is baptism after salvation- after becoming a disciple- a follower of Christ. it should be.. But not always possible right away. My sister in law had a medical condition she could not be immersed in water.. So she could never get fully baptized.. In my church, we have a few baptism celebrations a year.. when we have enough people.. It become a party and celebration and outreach.. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 30, 2022 7:46:34 GMT -8
In Acts 2:38 'be baptized' is an imperative, a command, a necessity not an option. Jesus in Jn 3 said ye MUST be born again with must making it a necessity, not an option. The eunuch obeyed God's command to be water baptized and he was water baptized by Phillip...the eunuch obediently submitted himself to God in water baptism and God did the work or removing the body of sin and the eunuch went on his way rejoicing. Jn 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". In v5 Jesus tells HOW a man is born again "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Being born of water is part of the HOW one is born again with water in the context (Jn 3:23) referring to water baptism. When one obeys by submitting to water baptism one is then and only then DOING the will of the Father (Mt 7:21) whereby one can then enter the kingdom. Acts 2:38. Peter tells EVERYONE to repent. and they would recieve the gift of the spirit. He then tells INDUVIDUALS to be baptised because they recieved remission of sin. Again, the greek would be your best friend. In john 3. When Jesus told nicodemus HOW to be born again or born of water and spirit. he said this 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Can you please tell me where the command to be baptized is?? Because I do not see it, if it is that important. then why did Jesus forget to tell him to be baptized?
Peter commanded you all repent and each one of you all be baptized, hence repentance and baptism are both commanded making both an equal necessity in becoming saved. The impenitent cannot be saved no more than the unbaptized can be saved for without repentance AND baptism there is no remission of sins. Again, in Jn 3 the words "must" and "except" make the new birth a necessity (not an option) on entering the kingdom. Acts 2:38 Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, COMMANDED repentance and baptism. Paul was commanded to be water baptized (Acts 22:16). The Gentiles were commanded to be water baptized (Acts 10:47-48). If for no other reason, the command alone makes water baptism essential to salvation. There is no salvation apart from doing the will of the Father (Mt 7:21), apart from doing what Christ says to do (Lk 6:46). |
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Post by gomer on Aug 30, 2022 8:09:28 GMT -8
Mk 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Matt 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.Facts/truths that are found within the great commission: 1) BOTH belief AND baptism come BEFORE salvation with the conjunction 'and' making BOTH of equal necessity in being saved...no belief = no salvation...no baptism = no salvation. 2) baptism is administered by humans and humans can only administer water baptism. 3) baptism is the means by which disciples are made...not baptized = not a disciple = not in Christ's possession: " The expression “into the name” (eis to onoma) is interesting. In New Testament Greek it signified that “the one who is baptized becomes the possession of and comes under the protection of” the one into whose name he is immersed (Arndt & Gingrich, p. 575).
Hence, one is not possessed by the divine Godhead until he submits to baptism. Mueller contends that baptism “into the name” of the Triune God means that one enters a relationship of “communion” with deity by that act (p. 371)." www.christiancourier.com/articles/247-the-great-commission-according-to-matthew4) this baptism that saves bringing one into the possession of Christ lasts till the end of the world. 5) there is to be a continuing teaching. New converts/disciples are to be taught which includes teaching water baptism as Christ taught water baptism. Then these newly taught converts go and make new disciples by baptizing them and then teach those new converts what Christ taught including what Christ taught on water baptism. This continued teaching is how Christianity is perpetuated through the centuries and how new Christians were made by perpetuation of water baptizing men. 6) Christ promised an abiding present with those who participate in this making of new disciples through baptizing and teaching. 7) none of these things are true about baptism with the Holy Spirit thereby making it impossible for baptism with the HS to be the one baptism of Eph 4:5 |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 30, 2022 8:14:27 GMT -8
Acts 2:38. Peter tells EVERYONE to repent. and they would recieve the gift of the spirit. He then tells INDUVIDUALS to be baptised because they recieved remission of sin. Again, the greek would be your best friend. In john 3. When Jesus told nicodemus HOW to be born again or born of water and spirit. he said this 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Can you please tell me where the command to be baptized is?? Because I do not see it, if it is that important. then why did Jesus forget to tell him to be baptized?
Peter commanded you all repent and each one of you all be baptized, hence repentance and baptism are both commanded making both an equal necessity in becoming saved. The impenitent cannot be saved no more than the unbaptized can be saved for without repentance AND baptism there is no remission of sins. Again, in Jn 3 the words "must" and "except" make the new birth a necessity (not an option) on entering the kingdom. Acts 2:38 Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, COMMANDED repentance and baptism. Paul was commanded to be water baptized (Acts 22:16). The Gentiles were commanded to be water baptized (Acts 10:47-48). If for no other reason, the command alone makes water baptism essential to salvation. There is no salvation apart from doing the will of the Father (Mt 7:21), apart from doing what Christ says to do (Lk 6:46). once again, you should try as I did many years ago when I questioned this verse and seek the greek repent is second person plural, and the object gift of the holy spirit goes with this verb be baptised is third person singular, and the object remission of sin goes with this verb the greek work kai (for) the remiision of sin can be translated in order to recieve or because you have already recieved, Considering the fact the gift of the spirit was given ONLY for repenting. then we need to interpret that they already had remission of sin before they were baptized. In fact the next verse shows this (and those who believed (repented) were baptized) As for John 3, I agree. new birth is MUST.. the problem is adding that baptism is required. this I can not agree Once again, please show me where the word baptized is used.. If you can;t then I can not see the water = baptism. I will continue to believe that water and flesh are the same. That which is born of the flesh (water) is flesh, that which is born of the spirit (spirit) is spirit. Again, Jesus told Nicodemus HOW to bew born again. I pasted the words of Jesus, show me the word baptize. |
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Post by hansen on Aug 30, 2022 16:38:25 GMT -8
And its obvious to the initated that you've been listening to many who've come before you. yawn.. mind if I ask why you come to places like this? You can't discuss the word when you do not even believe YOU can interpret the word correctly. in fear you may get it wrong. and you MUST listen to men. All you can do do is attack others? Why don;t you find a catholic chat where you can be like minded? Oh, it simple. It's because I've know the gospel. So, why do you come around? I doubt it's because you knowingly wish to spread and support error, even though you do that very thing. And I at least acknowledge that my beliefs are nothing new for Christ's followers, that others have laid the groundwork and others yet have witnessed to it down through the centuries because those beliefs have been around since the beginning, in fact, whereas yours have not, unless for perhaps some early antinomians who may not reflect your views exactly while being the nearest thing in pratical terms. Either way it's ironic that you should be so certain while opposing the full-true faith-reminds me a bit of Paul as a Pharisee. I once believed as you do; I later came to agree with the ancient churchs instead of the novel ones, by continuing to seek truth for myself. And unless you haven't noticed, there's not necessarily a great deal of like-mindedness on these forums, even where no Catholics are lurking and even where sola scriptura rules the day. That doctrine, alone, has arguably caused more division in Christianity than anything else. Luther predicted that it could. Anyway, if you don't like the heat, if the truth is uncomfortable... |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 31, 2022 2:46:44 GMT -8
yawn.. mind if I ask why you come to places like this? You can't discuss the word when you do not even believe YOU can interpret the word correctly. in fear you may get it wrong. and you MUST listen to men. All you can do do is attack others? Why don;t you find a catholic chat where you can be like minded? Oh, it simple. It's because I've know the gospel. So, why do you come around? I doubt it's because you knowingly wish to spread and support error, even though you do that very thing. And I at least acknowledge that my beliefs are nothing new for Christ's followers, that others have laid the groundwork and others yet have witnessed to it down through the centuries because those beliefs have been around since the beginning, in fact, whereas yours have not, unless for perhaps some early antinomians who may not reflect your views exactly while being the nearest thing in pratical terms. Either way it's ironic that you should be so certain while opposing the full-true faith-reminds me a bit of Paul as a Pharisee. I once believed as you do; I later came to agree with the ancient churchs instead of the novel ones, by continuing to seek truth for myself. And unless you haven't noticed, there's not necessarily a great deal of like-mindedness on these forums, even where no Catholics are lurking and even where sola scriptura rules the day. That doctrine, alone, has arguably caused more division in Christianity than anything else. Luther predicted that it could. Anyway, if you don't like the heat, if the truth is uncomfortable... Actually Unlike you 1. I do not follow men. so I am open to the fact I may be wrong 2. I have learned many things in these chat rooms I either did not know before. or have changed my view because, again, I am open 3. I do not consider you giving me any heat.. I see no truth in you. I see you following men. and then trying to get over people who do not follow men. who do as God commanded. But hey.. My question still stands. Your not here to learn anything. so why are you here? |
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Post by gomer on Aug 31, 2022 7:46:23 GMT -8
Peter commanded you all repent and each one of you all be baptized, hence repentance and baptism are both commanded making both an equal necessity in becoming saved. The impenitent cannot be saved no more than the unbaptized can be saved for without repentance AND baptism there is no remission of sins. Again, in Jn 3 the words "must" and "except" make the new birth a necessity (not an option) on entering the kingdom. Acts 2:38 Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, COMMANDED repentance and baptism. Paul was commanded to be water baptized (Acts 22:16). The Gentiles were commanded to be water baptized (Acts 10:47-48). If for no other reason, the command alone makes water baptism essential to salvation. There is no salvation apart from doing the will of the Father (Mt 7:21), apart from doing what Christ says to do (Lk 6:46). once again, you should try as I did many years ago when I questioned this verse and seek the greek repent is second person plural, and the object gift of the holy spirit goes with this verb be baptised is third person singular, and the object remission of sin goes with this verb the greek work kai (for) the remiision of sin can be translated in order to recieve or because you have already recieved, Considering the fact the gift of the spirit was given ONLY for repenting. then we need to interpret that they already had remission of sin before they were baptized. In fact the next verse shows this (and those who believed (repented) were baptized) As for John 3, I agree. new birth is MUST.. the problem is adding that baptism is required. this I can not agree Once again, please show me where the word baptized is used.. If you can;t then I can not see the water = baptism. I will continue to believe that water and flesh are the same. That which is born of the flesh (water) is flesh, that which is born of the spirit (spirit) is spirit. Again, Jesus told Nicodemus HOW to bew born again. I pasted the words of Jesus, show me the word baptize. 1) The same people Peter commanded to repent was the same people he commanded to be baptized and the fact 1) both repentance and baptism are commanded and 2) both are connected by the conjunction "and" which makes BOTH of equal importance in obtaining remission of sins and no amount of grammatical gymnastic can undo or change what Peter commanded. 2) the underlying Greek word in Acts 2:38 is eis not kai. Eis does not mean 'because' therefore it is never translated 'because'. Mt 26:28 Christ did not shed His blood BECAUSE sin were already remitted, that would be impossible (Heb 9:22). Christ shed His blood in order (eis) for sins to be remitted. Heb 11:7 Noah did not build the ark because he was already saved from a flood that had not even occurred but in order (eis) to be saved. --Peter tied repentance to baptism with the conjunction 'and'. If eis means because and one is baptized because he already has his sins remitted then one repents because one already has sins remitted which makes no sense. --if those Jews were already saved PRIOR to verse 38 then why does Peter tell them to "save yourselves" in v40? And if they were saved prior to verse 38 can you pinpoint the verse in which they were saved and prove why/how they were saved at that point? --Acts 2:41 " Then they that gladly received his word were baptized...". Those who rejected the gospel word preached by Peter rejected baptism logically implying rejecting baptism is rejecting the gospel. Water baptism is how the "gospel of Christ" (2 Thess 1:8) is obeyed. Those in Samaria believed and were baptized per (Acts 8:12 cf Mark 16:16). Acts 8:14 says " Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:" and those Samarians received the word of God by being baptized. The Gentiles in Acts 10 were commanded to be water baptized and Acts 11:1 says " And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God." Those Gentiles in Acts 10 also received the word of God by being water baptized. Again, rejecting water baptism is rejecting the gospel word....rejecting water baptism is rejecting obeying the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8)......the fact that God, in flaming fire, will have vengeance upon those who " obey not" the gospel of Christ proves yet again obedience is necessary IN ORDER to be saved. --In Acts 2:21 Peter quotes Joel's prophecy " And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." This was fulfilled in v38: call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved repent & be baptized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/sins remitted Two points: 1) "calling on the name of the Lord means DOING what the Lord says (Lk 6:46) and the Lord said to repent (Lk 13:3) and be baptized (Mk 16:16). Jesus is not Lord of those who disobey what He says. 2) one calls on the name of the Lord IN ORDER to be saved not BECAUSE one is already saved. Since the prophecy is IN ORDER to be saved then the fulfillment in v38 of that prophecy must also be IN ORDER to be saved/sins remitted. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 31, 2022 22:49:53 GMT -8
he same people Peter commanded to repent was the same people he commanded to be baptized and the fact 1) both repentance and baptism are commanded and 2) both are connected by the conjunction "and" which makes BOTH of equal importance in obtaining remission of sins and no amount of grammatical gymnastic can undo or change what Peter commanded.#
Both of you guys make excellent points in your on- going debate, yet there is a possibility that there is something going on that you have never seen before—-
One MUST receive the Holy Spirit in order to be Saved.....The Problem arises when we are presented with TWO totally different ways to “obtain” that Mandatory Spirit That results in an Unsaved Man’s Being “Born Again”...
Too many people do not understand that the Bible Book where they obtain their Salvation Doctrine by emulating the Early Church—- That would be the Book Of Acts—- is a Book Of Transition....At the beginning of this Book, Peter us preaching the message that he was told to teach—- if you want to receive the Holy Spirit, you must “ Repent and be Baptized”.......People read Acts2:8 and think that that is supposed to be our Doctrine for today and they tend to just stop there —— they pay no attention to the fact thsvas thisBook unfolds.....
Oops....something came up....will finish later..
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Post by eternallygrateful on Sept 1, 2022 2:54:34 GMT -8
once again, you should try as I did many years ago when I questioned this verse and seek the greek repent is second person plural, and the object gift of the holy spirit goes with this verb be baptised is third person singular, and the object remission of sin goes with this verb the greek work kai (for) the remiision of sin can be translated in order to recieve or because you have already recieved, Considering the fact the gift of the spirit was given ONLY for repenting. then we need to interpret that they already had remission of sin before they were baptized. In fact the next verse shows this (and those who believed (repented) were baptized) As for John 3, I agree. new birth is MUST.. the problem is adding that baptism is required. this I can not agree Once again, please show me where the word baptized is used.. If you can;t then I can not see the water = baptism. I will continue to believe that water and flesh are the same. That which is born of the flesh (water) is flesh, that which is born of the spirit (spirit) is spirit. Again, Jesus told Nicodemus HOW to bew born again. I pasted the words of Jesus, show me the word baptize. 1) The same people Peter commanded to repent was the same people he commanded to be baptized and the fact 1) both repentance and baptism are commanded and 2) both are connected by the conjunction "and" which makes BOTH of equal importance in obtaining remission of sins and no amount of grammatical gymnastic can undo or change what Peter commanded. No, it was not. Not everyone he spoke to God baptised. And in the greek he did not tell everyone to be baptized. You need to study up on Language skills As for eis. I take this from a document i read on baptism, concerning the word EIS Unfortunately, the most of us are restricted to the poverty of the English language. In doing so, we are robbed at times of the rich and exacting connections that are made in the original Greek. We are also at a loss at times to find the best word for certain translations. Am I saying that the traditional translation for Acts 2:38 is in error? No I am not. The trouble is at times that when translating a meaning for a word, exegetical experts like to translate on a word for word basis. What this means is, they pick the best single English word to replace the meaning of the singular Greek word in the passage. What happens here are that some Greek words would be better translated as several words to arrive at the best understanding of the passage in English. “For” the remission of sins is by far the best single word translation as is proven by its popularity in most translations.
Even in the English usage we can see there are different meanings as to how the word "for" is used and applied. This we will discuss later on in our discussion. Many read into this passage that the word for means “purpose of ” or “in order to obtain.” While this is a just interpretation that can be used in many cases, it is cannot be here. There are many options that can be used for the Greek word eis in this passage, especially ones that do not make this passage contradict hundreds of other Scriptures. It would be a better multiple word translation to interpret the meaning of eis as, “on account of,” “because of ” (Matt. 12:41; Luke 11:32), “in accordance ”or “with reference to," the remission of sins. This would be more appropriate since this would keep in harmony with the passages that assert that we are saved by faith and not by any works. (See Brown, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 3:1208; Perschbacher, The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, page 121, eis, (with reference to; as in 2 Cor. 10:13,); Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich, Greek Lexicon, page 230 , eis, (with respect or reference to); Moulton, The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, page 119, eis, (with a view to; with reference to; in accordance with).
Two bits of misinformation are used in an attempt to salvage baptism as a requirement for salvation. First, the misnomer that some have propagated, " eis never means "because of." This is emphatically proven wrong by the use of eis in Matt. 12:41. The other false claim is, "the word "eis" never looks backwards." Once again, this is proven to be patently false according to Matt. 12:41. Look at the example of Scripture they say never "looks backwards." " My children are with me in (eis) bed." Luke 11:7. They were already with him in bed, there is not any reference to the future. The argument which claims that eis in Acts 2:38 can only mean that baptism is required for salvation, is clearly a false, and is either propagated out of ignorance, or by deliberate deception. It only takes one example to prove their assertion is false!
The argument is made that the term cannot be used as "reference to," or "with reference to." In Romans 6: 3 we read, "that so many of us as were baptized into (eis) Christ were baptized into (eis) his death..." 1 Corinthians 10: 2, "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto (eis) Moses in the cloud and in the sea." "And that "baptized unto Moses" again uses the little preposition eis, so the Bible says, "baptized eis Jesus Christ," " baptized eis his death," and "baptized eis Moses." So if baptism puts the penitent sinner into Christ, then all the nation of Israel were put into Moses. If the one is literally put into, then the other is literally put into." False Doctrines, John R. Rice, Sword of the Lord Publishers, Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Page 92. The meaning of eis is clearly used as a term of being "in reference to"; a legitimate meaning of the word. So to argue that eis cannot mean "reference to" or "with reference to" in many passages of Scripture, and it cannot hold the same meaning in Acts 2:38, is to dodge reality.
"In reference to" can be seen in another example, this time in the English usage of the word. Here are a few expressions that show that there can be more than just one justifiable use of the word. We can "take an aspirin for a headache," and we can “get paid for our work.” We do not take aspirin “for the purpose of ” getting a headache anymore than we get paid “in order to obtain ”our work. The meaning of "because" or "on account of" makes more sense in these examples, just as on account of the remission of sins does in Acts 2:38.
We are told of a leper in Luke 5:13 that was healed by the touch of Jesus. In 5:14, Jesus tells him, “go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing. ”Notice that he was not ordered to make an offering “in order to obtain” this cleansing, this would not make sense, for the healed leper already had it!
Another illustration is as follows:
1. I phoned the Doctor for (in order to) some medicine.
2. I phoned the Doctor for (in behalf of) my child.
3. I phoned the Doctor for (on account of) my sickness.
4. I phoned the Doctor for (with respect to) the bill he sent. (Bob Ross, Acts 2:38 and Baptismal Remission, pp.45-48 , Pilgrim Publications, Pasadena, TX, 1987)
Just as English translation does not lock us into the idea that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation, the English does not assert or demand which of the meanings of "eis" we should choose. The laws of hermeneutics however, demand that “on account of the remission of sins” is the only Scripturally consistent translation to consider.
As you can see. Your thoughts about eis/for are wrong in any langiage
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