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Post by gomer on Aug 15, 2022 8:42:49 GMT -8
Individuals are not arbitrarily unconditionally sealed for some mysterious reason. To become sealed and remained sealed requires one CONDITIONALLY be faithful to God. In Corinthians and Ephesians Paul is addressing those who were Christians. Therefore to be of this sealed group called Christian one must become a Christian and faithfully remain a Christian. If one becomes unfaithful and falls from being a Christian, falls from the church the body of Christ, he no longer sealed for he is no longer of the sealed group. No sealing APART from the group Christian. The church at Ephesus was sealed but because they did not remain faithful they were on the verge of becoming lost (Rev 2:1-7) for they had fallen, left Christ and if they did not repent the church (candlestick) located at Ephesus would be removed...God would no longer recognize them as His church. The seal is no good apart from a faithful obedience.Paul used a form of the Greek word 'sealed' (sphragis) in Rom 4:11 that he used in Eph 1:13. In Rom 4:11 Abraham's circumcision was a 'seal' of his righteousness he had when he was uncircumcised. All Jews received this seal of circumcision but that seal did not mean a guaranteed unconditional salvation for most all Jews were lost except for an obedient remnant (Rom 11:5). Though the Jews had this seal they were still cast off due to unbelief (Rom 11:20). The seal was no good apart from a faithful obedience. The remnant of Jews who were sealed were the ones who obeyed the gospel (Acts 2:38). Therefore being sealed and remaining sealed is CONDITIONAL upon a CONTINUED faithful obedience to God. Again, the NT does not speak of individuals being given an UNconditional guaranteed sealing apart from the word of God, apart from obedience to that word, apart from the group Christian which is the body of Christ. The Bible does not teach being sealed is an unconditional guarantee regardless of how the Christian lives, what the Christian does. This would be called conditional life. Not eternal life. John said I can know I HAVE eternal life. If I can have it in my possession. Then lose it. It is not eternal life. It is conditional life. Nowhere in the NT is eternal life ever made an UNCONDITIONAL promise. John never said eternal life was unconditional. 1 Jn 5:13 " These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Those that CONDITIONALLY keep on believing know they have eternal life. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 15, 2022 9:16:37 GMT -8
Then we are basically back under law. Not under grace. and we had better live up to Gods standard.. for if we fail (and we will) then we lose We today are under Christ's NT law as Paul said he was under law to Christ (1 Cor 9:21). Paul also said in Rom 4:15 "for where no law is, there is no transgression." So if we today are under no law at all, then there would be no such thing as sin and all would be sinless. There must be law to define sin (Rom 7:7). The fact people sin (1 Jn 1:8f) is proof we are under law today, under Christ's NT law. God gives man laws for man's own good (Rom 7:12) and man's love to God is by keeping those law (1 Jn 5:3). Since no man other than Christ can keep God's laws sinlessly, then there is a need for grace. Sinning, transgressing God's law separates one from God (Isa 59:2) and grace is needed to bridge that separation. Therefore law and grace are not antagonistic to each other for man must keep God's law for it is for man's own good/well being, keeping God's law is how man loves God and obeying God's law keeps one from serving "sin unto death" (Rom 6:16). By obeying God's law one is serving "obedience unto righteousness" and grace is there for those times men do sin. Excuse me, But God did not lower his standard in the NT and make it easier to get to heaven than the origional. Your still required to meet Gods standard. Or you are dependent on Gods grace. You work will never save you |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 15, 2022 9:21:05 GMT -8
This would be called conditional life. Not eternal life. John said I can know I HAVE eternal life. If I can have it in my possession. Then lose it. It is not eternal life. It is conditional life. Nowhere in the NT is eternal life ever made an UNCONDITIONAL promise. John never said eternal life was unconditional. 1 Jn 5:13 " These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Those that CONDITIONALLY keep on believing know they have eternal life. Look at John. Jesus himself gave us the answer As moses lifted the serpent so to must the son of man be lifted. That whoever believes will never perish but HAS (present tense) eternal life. never dying and eternal life are equal. Whoever has it will never die. The people who looked up at the serpent never died they did not work to earn it. Moses did all the work. By raising the serpent jesus said in John 6 it is the work of God we believe. You did not come to faith of yoursel (If you actually came to faith) You came to faith by the work of God 1. The cross is his work 2. The word was his work 3. Revelation is his work (general and special) 4. the people who come and teach you and give you the gospel is his work 5. His helping you to understand is his work. Not of works lest anyone should boast is what Paul says at least twice. You can’t boast because you have faith. Unless your faith is in yourself. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 15, 2022 9:53:41 GMT -8
“ All Those That Believe In Me “ALREADY HAVE “ Eternal Life and shall “NEVER” come under Condemnation .... Would you mind sharing book,chapter and verse on your partial quote? It appears to be John 5 but I`m not completely sure. John 5:24 |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 15, 2022 9:57:58 GMT -8
1John5:5 “ And who is the one that overcomes the world , ( I.e. endures) But he who Believes that Jesus is the Son Of God” It was a marathon but you made it brother. Welcome to the forum !  This appears to be a great site!....thank you for the warm welcome! God bless... |
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Post by civic on Aug 15, 2022 10:12:10 GMT -8
It was a marathon but you made it brother. Welcome to the forum ! This appears to be a great site!....thank you for the warm welcome! God bless... You are more than welcome:) |
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 15, 2022 10:33:11 GMT -8
Would you mind sharing book,chapter and verse on your partial quote? It appears to be John 5 but I`m not completely sure. John 5:24 I appriciate the respose. I thought that was the verse but you are using a different translation than I use so wasnt completely sure. In the text from the King James below hearing the word of Jesus and believing in God are both qualifying requirements to pass from death to life. My point being once you learn about the gospel and you believe then God will give you everlasting life. The life is given to you by the Holy Spirit and you are not saved until the moment you recieve the Spirit. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 15, 2022 17:14:50 GMT -8
We today are under Christ's NT law as Paul said he was under law to Christ (1 Cor 9:21). Paul also said in Rom 4:15 "for where no law is, there is no transgression." So if we today are under no law at all, then there would be no such thing as sin and all would be sinless. There must be law to define sin (Rom 7:7). The fact people sin (1 Jn 1:8f) is proof we are under law today, under Christ's NT law. God gives man laws for man's own good (Rom 7:12) and man's love to God is by keeping those law (1 Jn 5:3). Since no man other than Christ can keep God's laws sinlessly, then there is a need for grace. Sinning, transgressing God's law separates one from God (Isa 59:2) and grace is needed to bridge that separation. Therefore law and grace are not antagonistic to each other for man must keep God's law for it is for man's own good/well being, keeping God's law is how man loves God and obeying God's law keeps one from serving "sin unto death" (Rom 6:16). By obeying God's law one is serving "obedience unto righteousness" and grace is there for those times men do sin. Excuse me, But God did not lower his standard in the NT and make it easier to get to heaven than the origional. Your still required to meet Gods standard. Or you are dependent on Gods grace. You work will never save you Paul did say he was under law to Christ, the fact people sin prove that men today are under Christ's NT law. Works of merit will not save (Eph 2:9) yet obedience to God's will does save (Heb 5:9). Works of merit and obedience are two completely different things. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2022 17:24:53 GMT -8
I do believe in non-meritorious requirements, but they are not keeping the Law. Paul talked about the Law of Love, but he was not using this wordplay in a legal sense. If we try to keep the Law TO BE saved, to accomplish something, we are not trusting in grace.
I am commanded not to come by God through my own performance, it is obedience to rest in his ability working in me.
Grace automatically keeps the attitudes of the Law in us, and the more we stop trying and start trusting, the more we automatically keep the moral law. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 15, 2022 17:31:44 GMT -8
Nowhere in the NT is eternal life ever made an UNCONDITIONAL promise. John never said eternal life was unconditional. 1 Jn 5:13 " These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Those that CONDITIONALLY keep on believing know they have eternal life. Look at John. Jesus himself gave us the answer As moses lifted the serpent so to must the son of man be lifted. That whoever believes will never perish but HAS (present tense) eternal life. never dying and eternal life are equal. Whoever has it will never die. The people who looked up at the serpent never died they did not work to earn it. Moses did all the work. By raising the serpent jesus said in John 6 it is the work of God we believe. You did not come to faith of yoursel (If you actually came to faith) You came to faith by the work of God 1. The cross is his work 2. The word was his work 3. Revelation is his work (general and special) 4. the people who come and teach you and give you the gospel is his work 5. His helping you to understand is his work. Not of works lest anyone should boast is what Paul says at least twice. You can’t boast because you have faith. Unless your faith is in yourself. Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The verb "believeth" is present tense showing an ongoing sustained belief. The verb 'should' is subjunctive mood which is "the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." (Strong's). This means that the action described (perish) may or may not happen depending upon the circumstance of one maintaining a present tense belief. "IF" one continues to believe he should have everlasting life but IF one quits believing he should not have everlasting life. ================ God does not do the work of believing for man, what Jesus is saying is that belief is a work of God that God has given to man to do. God is the genesis of the work much like when one does the work of the employer one is doing the work the employer has given one to do. --Jn 6:27 Jesus clearly told those people to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.....no work = no everlasting life. --The people respond by asking "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" --Jesus gave them the work of believing to do v29. If God does the work of believing for men, then: 1) it would make no sense to command men to believe (example, Acts 16:31) when men cannot possibly obey that command. 2) those who are in unbelief are so due to fault and culpability on God's part for failing to do that work for them. 3) God would have respect of persons for whom He does this work for from those He does not, yet God has not such respect of persons (Acts 10:24-35). =============== Again, works of merit do not save (Eph 2:9) but obedience to God does saved (Heb 5:9). |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 16, 2022 0:06:09 GMT -8
I do believe in non-meritorious requirements, but they are not keeping the Law. Paul talked about the Law of Love, but he was not using this wordplay in a legal sense. If we try to keep the Law TO BE saved, to accomplish something, we are not trusting in grace.
I am commanded not to come by God through my own performance, it is obedience to rest in his ability working in me.
Grace automatically keeps the attitudes of the Law in us, and the more we stop trying and start trusting, the more we automatically keep the moral law. I have heard it put “this” way—— “God will NOT SAVE those * Trying* to be Saved, but he will Save ANYBODY that is * Trusting* to be Saved..... |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 16, 2022 0:14:57 GMT -8
Again, works of merit do not save (Eph 2:9) but obedience to God does saved (Heb 5:9).
The Bible talks about “ The OBEDIENCE to the Gospel”.....I believe that if one lacks “ that” Obedience, all of his other Obedience May have been in vain....
Regardless, when one speaks of our everyday Obedience to God, one needs to realize that LOVE is the “ ENGINE” that drives Obedience —- not the fear of dropping into Hell every time we ”Stumble”.....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2022 0:31:00 GMT -8
bloodbought sounds spiritually based
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 16, 2022 3:01:56 GMT -8
Excuse me, But God did not lower his standard in the NT and make it easier to get to heaven than the origional. Your still required to meet Gods standard. Or you are dependent on Gods grace. You work will never save you Paul did say he was under law to Christ, the fact people sin prove that men today are under Christ's NT law. Works of merit will not save (Eph 2:9) yet obedience to God's will does save (Heb 5:9). Works of merit and obedience are two completely different things. Can you explain these verses in context of what you said above? Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, |
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Post by gomer on Aug 16, 2022 7:37:05 GMT -8
Paul did say he was under law to Christ, the fact people sin prove that men today are under Christ's NT law. Works of merit will not save (Eph 2:9) yet obedience to God's will does save (Heb 5:9). Works of merit and obedience are two completely different things. Can you explain these verses in context of what you said above? Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, None of the 'works' in the verses you cited above refer to obedience to God but refer to works of merit or man's own devised works and/or the perfect flawless works required by the OT law to be justified. Nowhere ever is obedience eliminated from becoming saved....."obedience UNTO righteousness" (Rom 6:16). One is either being obedient to God's will or disobedient, no other options. Therefore if "not of works" eliminates obedience that means salvation comes by being DISOBEDIENT/UNRIGHTEOUS which is the exact opposite of what the Bible does teach. No one can be saved while continuing to live in unrighteous rebellion to God's will. |
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