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Post by gomer on Aug 16, 2022 7:43:59 GMT -8
Again, works of merit do not save (Eph 2:9) but obedience to God does saved (Heb 5:9). The Bible talks about “ The OBEDIENCE to the Gospel”.....I believe that if one lacks “ that” Obedience, all of his other Obedience May have been in vain.... Regardless, when one speaks of our everyday Obedience to God, one needs to realize that LOVE is the “ ENGINE” that drives Obedience —- not the fear of dropping into Hell every time we ”Stumble”..... Obedience is to be done out of love for God not because one feels I 'have to' obey. And obedience is how man loves God, (Jn 14:15). Therefore obtaining salvation is impossible apart from obedience to God |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 16, 2022 7:58:32 GMT -8
Can you explain these verses in context of what you said above? Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, This is not true there was no law in romans 4, Romans 11 spoke of any work, vs grace 2 timothy spoke of our deeds and titus 3 actual speaks of righteous works. Obedience to the law of christ would be performing righteous works. in fact. biblical defenition of works is this 1. work is something we do to earn a wage 2. something we do in which we earn rewards the reason paul differentiates grace and works is because grace is unmerited. if any work is required to maintain grace. it would not be grace, it would be through works. this is also not true. if it is of works, it is not of grace.. I am not saved by my good deeds, but by Gods mercy (titus 3) A child of God does not live in rebellion. Thats impossible. Only those who are not in christ can live in rebellion But A child of God will not be sinless. he will still sin and FALL SHORT of the glory of God. As james said, if we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty We are either under the law. or we are under grace. there is no ohter option. Your either perfect. Or you must come to Christ as the tax collector.. those are your only two options |
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Post by gomer on Aug 16, 2022 9:18:12 GMT -8
there was no law in romans 4, Romans 11 spoke of any work, vs grace 2 timothy spoke of our deeds and titus 3 actual speaks of righteous works. Obedience to the law of christ would be performing righteous works. in fact. biblical defenition of works is this 1. work is something we do to earn a wage 2. something we do in which we earn rewards the reason paul differentiates grace and works is because grace is unmerited. if any work is required to maintain grace. it would not be grace, it would be through works. this is also not true. if it is of works, it is not of grace.. I am not saved by my good deeds, but by Gods mercy (titus 3) A child of God does not live in rebellion. Thats impossible. Only those who are not in christ can live in rebellion But A child of God will not be sinless. he will still sin and FALL SHORT of the glory of God. As james said, if we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty We are either under the law. or we are under grace. there is no ohter option. Your either perfect. Or you must come to Christ as the tax collector.. those are your only two options Those who follow Luther's faith only idea have consistently taken Rom 4:5 OUT OF CONTEXT and ASSUME it eliminates ALL works of ALL kinds including obedience. If "not of works" eliminates obedience, then: --that has God saving those who live in unrighteousness and rebellion to His will, yet the unrighteous are the ones who are lost --it would create obvious logical contradictions for Paul in Rom 6:16-18 required obedience BEFORE justification/freed from sin --from Heb 11:8,17 that Abraham DID DO obedient works and according to James was justified by those works therefore 'not of works' cannot logically eliminate all works, it cannot eliminate obedience If we examine the CONTEXT of the first 4 chapters of Romans, Paul's theme is justification and that justification is by an obedient faith and not by perfect flawless works as required by the OT. Paul is proving to the Jews, and uses as an example 2 famed men the Jews would know well Abraham and David, and prove they were both justified by an obedient faith not by perfect flawless works. Romans 1 and 2 Paul proves both Jew and Gentile have sinned therefore both are under sin and those under sin are in need of justification. Romans 3, Paul spends the first half or more of this chapter telling his readers what does NOT justify and that is the OT law that was committed to the Jews (Rom 3:1-2) and spends the last part of Rom 3 telling his readers what DOES justify and that is faith. Paul never said anything about faith only. Luther added the word 'only' to God's word thereby changing it. Even though the OT law was an advantage to the Jews over the Gentiles, the law of Moses still could not justify the Jew for it required the work of perfect flawless law keeping (Gal 3:10) which the Jew could not do thereby leaving the Jew under sin and no better than the Gentile (Rom 3:9). Paul ends Romans 3 by showing that Jew and Gentile can both be justified by faith (Acts 15:9) rather than works of flawless law keeping. Romans 4, Paul uses two men the Jews are very familiar with to prove his point they were not saved by the flawless, perfect works required of the OT law but rather justified by faith. --verse 1 what did Abraham pertaining to the flesh find? In other words, what merit did Abraham gain with God according to his OWN efforts? None. --verse 2 if Abraham could be justified by his own efforts he would have something to boast about. Again, the "works" Paul speaks of here is NOT obedience for Abraham did obey God (Heb 11:8,17) but the works here speak of works merit one does in perfect law keeping that one could boast about. --verse 3 we find Abraham did not do flawless works in meriting justification but instead he believed, he had an obedient faith. --verse 4 him who worketh in keeping the law perfectly his reward is of debt and not of grace. Note this person who worketh in keeping the law perfectly is contrasted from the person who believes. --verse 5 Abraham was one who worketh not but believeth. The contrast made here as in Rom 3 is the contrast in working to keep the law perfectly contrasted from an obedient belief as Abraham had (Heb 11:8,17). Hence Abraham was not one who found justification by working to keep the OT law of Moses perfectly (he didn't even live under the law of Moses, Rom 4:9-10) but was justified by an obedient belief. Unlike Abraham, David DID live under the OT law of Moses yet David was not justified by that law in keeping it perfectly, he sinned, but he was justified by an obedient faith as Abraham. ". ...the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" -- "without works" refers to the work perfect flawless law keeping required by the OT and therefore David was justified without those perfect flawless works. How then was David justified? " Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. who will the Lord not impute sin? The disobedient, unrighteous person who lives in rebellion to God's will? NO, NEVER!!! But it is the faithful OBEDIENT person as David and Abraham whose sins are forgiven and covered that God will not impute sin. unto whom (the obedient man) God reckoneth righteousness apart from works (works of perfect flawless law keeping). All through the context Paul is contrasting works of flawless law keeping that cannot justify from obedience to God that does justify. Paul's point is if these two great men well known men in the Jews "hall of fame" could not be justified by the law of Moses and its requirement of working to keep all the law flawlessly then no Jew should think he could be justified by that law either but justified by an obedient faith as Abraham and David were. Abraham lived prior to the law of Moses and was justified in UNcircumcision and David lived under and justified in circumcision, therefore justification comes apart from the law of Moses and its requirement in working to keep the law flawlessly to be justified by it but both were justified by an obedient faith. Faith only is nowhere in the context to be found, justification apart from obedience is nowhere in the context to be found. Justification by obedience does not require one to work to keep the law flawlessly, but requires one to strive to keep the law as best as he can and seek forgiveness and grace from God for those time he fails and sins. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 16, 2022 9:58:17 GMT -8
there was no law in romans 4, Romans 11 spoke of any work, vs grace 2 timothy spoke of our deeds and titus 3 actual speaks of righteous works. Obedience to the law of christ would be performing righteous works. in fact. biblical defenition of works is this 1. work is something we do to earn a wage 2. something we do in which we earn rewards the reason paul differentiates grace and works is because grace is unmerited. if any work is required to maintain grace. it would not be grace, it would be through works. this is also not true. if it is of works, it is not of grace.. I am not saved by my good deeds, but by Gods mercy (titus 3) A child of God does not live in rebellion. Thats impossible. Only those who are not in christ can live in rebellion But A child of God will not be sinless. he will still sin and FALL SHORT of the glory of God. As james said, if we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty We are either under the law. or we are under grace. there is no ohter option. Your either perfect. Or you must come to Christ as the tax collector.. those are your only two options Those who follow Luther's faith only idea have consistently taken Rom 4:5 OUT OF CONTEXT and ASSUME it eliminates ALL works of ALL kinds including obedience. If "not of works" eliminates obedience, then: --that has God saving those who live in unrighteousness and rebellion to His will, yet the unrighteous are the ones who are lost --it would create obvious logical contradictions for Paul in Rom 6:16-18 required obedience BEFORE justification/freed from sin --from Heb 11:8,17 that Abraham DID DO obedient works and according to James was justified by those works therefore 'not of works' cannot logically eliminate all works, it cannot eliminate obedience If we examine the CONTEXT of the first 4 chapters of Romans, Paul's theme is justification and that justification is by an obedient faith and not by perfect flawless works as required by the OT. Paul is proving to the Jews, and uses as an example 2 famed men the Jews would know well Abraham and David, and prove they were both justified by an obedient faith not by perfect flawless works. Romans 1 and 2 Paul proves both Jew and Gentile have sinned therefore both are under sin and those under sin are in need of justification. Romans 3, Paul spends the first half or more of this chapter telling his readers what does NOT justify and that is the OT law that was committed to the Jews (Rom 3:1-2) and spends the last part of Rom 3 telling his readers what DOES justify and that is faith. Paul never said anything about faith only. Luther added the word 'only' to God's word thereby changing it. Even though the OT law was an advantage to the Jews over the Gentiles, the law of Moses still could not justify the Jew for it required the work of perfect flawless law keeping (Gal 3:10) which the Jew could not do thereby leaving the Jew under sin and no better than the Gentile (Rom 3:9). Paul ends Romans 3 by showing that Jew and Gentile can both be justified by faith (Acts 15:9) rather than works of flawless law keeping. Romans 4, Paul uses two men the Jews are very familiar with to prove his point they were not saved by the flawless, perfect works required of the OT law but rather justified by faith. --verse 1 what did Abraham pertaining to the flesh find? In other words, what merit did Abraham gain with God according to his OWN efforts? None. --verse 2 if Abraham could be justified by his own efforts he would have something to boast about. Again, the "works" Paul speaks of here is NOT obedience for Abraham did obey God (Heb 11:8,17) but the works here speak of works merit one does in perfect law keeping that one could boast about. --verse 3 we find Abraham did not do flawless works in meriting justification but instead he believed, he had an obedient faith. --verse 4 him who worketh in keeping the law perfectly his reward is of debt and not of grace. Note this person who worketh in keeping the law perfectly is contrasted from the person who believes. --verse 5 Abraham was one who worketh not but believeth. The contrast made here as in Rom 3 is the contrast in working to keep the law perfectly contrasted from an obedient belief as Abraham had (Heb 11:8,17). Hence Abraham was not one who found justification by working to keep the OT law of Moses perfectly (he didn't even live under the law of Moses, Rom 4:9-10) but was justified by an obedient belief. Unlike Abraham, David DID live under the OT law of Moses yet David was not justified by that law in keeping it perfectly, he sinned, but he was justified by an obedient faith as Abraham. ". ...the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" -- "without works" refers to the work perfect flawless law keeping required by the OT and therefore David was justified without those perfect flawless works. How then was David justified? " Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. who will the Lord not impute sin? The disobedient, unrighteous person who lives in rebellion to God's will? NO, NEVER!!! But it is the faithful OBEDIENT person as David and Abraham whose sins are forgiven and covered that God will not impute sin. unto whom (the obedient man) God reckoneth righteousness apart from works (works of perfect flawless law keeping). All through the context Paul is contrasting works of flawless law keeping that cannot justify from obedience to God that does justify. Paul's point is if these two great men well known men in the Jews "hall of fame" could not be justified by the law of Moses and its requirement of working to keep all the law flawlessly then no Jew should think he could be justified by that law either but justified by an obedient faith as Abraham and David were. Abraham lived prior to the law of Moses and was justified in UNcircumcision and David lived under and justified in circumcision, therefore justification comes apart from the law of Moses and its requirement in working to keep the law flawlessly to be justified by it but both were justified by an obedient faith. Faith only is nowhere in the context to be found, justification apart from obedience is nowhere in the context to be found. Justification by obedience does not require one to work to keep the law flawlessly, but requires one to strive to keep the law as best as he can and seek forgiveness and grace from God for those time he fails and sins. I do not follow Luther.. Thank you Abraham was before the law/ So when paul says if abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about, it has to do with the works that abraham did. he did not do works of the law, So to claim this is works of the law is just wrong If your claiming one must do works to be saved, you are claiming they are trying to earn salvation by works.. This is against the word of God Again, if it is of grace (unmerited favor) it is not of works (any work) otherwise grace is no longer grace grace and works do not mix, it is like mixing oil and water |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2022 16:11:06 GMT -8
John Wesley on
“Once Saved always Saved?”
“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way...
They tell us, that somehow....
No virgin’s lamp can go out...(Matthew 25:8)
No promising harvest can be choked with thorns...(Matthew 13:7)
No branch in Christ can ever be cut off for unfruitfulness...(John 15:6)
No pardon can ever be forfeited...
(Matthew 18:32)
They say that no name can be blotted out of God’s book!
(Revelation 3:5; Exodus 32:33)
They insist that no salt can ever lose its savour...
(Matthew 5:13)
That nobody can ever...
“receive the grace of God in vain”... (2 Corinthians 6:1)
“bury his talents”...(Matthew 25:18)
“neglect such great salvation”... (Hebrews 2:3)
trifle away “a day of grace”... (James 5:5)
“look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow...
(Luke 9:62)
Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,”... (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19) and strives no more, (Romans 11:21,22)
nor “deny the Lord that bought them”...
(2 Peter 2:1)
nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.”.. (2 Peter 2:1)
Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth... (Revelation 3:16)
They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. (John 17:12)
that if one falls, he never stood. (Romans 11:16-22 and Hebrews 6:4-6)
if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never attached to the vine and once green. (John 15:1-6)
and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. (Hebrews 10:38,39)
that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. (2 Peter 2:20)
that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, (Hebrews 10:35; Psalms 51:11)
and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! (1 Timothy 1:19)
In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it.
May God SAVE US...
from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!”
~ John Wesley
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2022 16:14:18 GMT -8
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Post by dwight92070 on Aug 16, 2022 21:13:08 GMT -8
Hi, this is dwight92070 - not sure if I need to use the numbers. I'm new on this site, as of today. Just one note on OSAS - I don't think I read this above. If OSAS is the truth, then we have free will before we are saved, but once we get saved, we lose our free will. In other words, we are free to accept Christ or reject Christ before we actually DO accept Him. But once we accept Him and receive His salvation by grace through faith, THEN we are no longer free to reject Him - He will not allow it. So we are forced to stay saved, even if we turn our backs on Him, curse Him, and live for the devil. Or does He allow us to reject Him, with no consequences?
When many of Jesus' disciples were leaving Him, Jesus asked the twelve, "You don't want to leave too, do you?" So He gave His apostles the freedom to leave Him if they wanted to. Or was He just toying with them, knowing that they couldn't leave even if they wanted to?
OSAS doesn't agree with the Bible. There are too many warnings NOT to leave or we will face the same consequences as the lost.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2022 21:17:15 GMT -8
Hey dwight from theos.org!
Welcome to the forum!
Great point about OSAS. What most argue is we lose our free will in heaven so what's the difference here. Of course I don't agree with that.
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 16, 2022 23:13:56 GMT -8
Justification by obedience does not require one to work to keep the law flawlessly, but requires one to strive to keep the law as best as he can and seek forgiveness and grace from God for those time he fails and sins.
This might make it appear that we must “Merit” Grace by “Striving ( another Word for ‘ working’) to keep a law that can NEVER Justify.....( ‘ By the Works Of The Law, NO FLESH will be Justified)......
Grace is “ UNMERITED FAVOR”......Accept that we are Saved and kept by Grace Plus Nothing, because if one tries to take the “ Striving” Route to Merit that which is impossible to merit, The Standard is PERFECTION—-24/7
If one chooses to “put themselves under the Law” , in ANY way, shape or form, that’s fine—— just accept the fact that you will also be under “The Curse Of The Law” .....the “ curse” is that the Standard is PERFECTION and nobody can pull it off......
The Bible never says that “ It is by “ striving to do our best ‘ that we are Saved...
The Bible says that “ It is by GRACE that we are Saved”
“ Striving” or “ Working “ to earn what can never “ BE” earned will cancel the very thing that Saves—- GRACE ! ( if it be by Works, it can’t be ofGrace)
Don’t Fear Grace—— knowing that ALL of my Sins are covered by it, inspires one to Sin less—- not more....its the secret of living a life that pleases God...... I am free to do whatever I “want”......and just what exactly do I “ Want?”.......I want to live a life that please the One who Shed His Blood so that I could live in this Grace....
I
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2022 23:26:29 GMT -8
Amen, bloodbought. Just to restate your points, I don't believe we are supposed to strive to keep the Law as best as we can.
That is self-effort, trying to achieve performance from our own self-goodness, and putting ourselves back under the principle of demand and obligation, putting ourselves under the Law again as Galatians warns against.
We are to rest in grace, and the fruit of the Spirit is grown as we grow in grace and turn from our anxious striving to be good enough.
We'll be more like Christ by accident than we ever were on purpose, and it will come so much easier as well.
Let's not disguise legalism by slapping the label "grace" on striving to be good enough, but give people the real and actual freedom to let God do it all.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 17, 2022 1:55:55 GMT -8
Hi, this is dwight92070 - not sure if I need to use the numbers. I'm new on this site, as of today. Just one note on OSAS - I don't think I read this above. If OSAS is the truth, then we have free will before we are saved, but once we get saved, we lose our free will. In other words, we are free to accept Christ or reject Christ before we actually DO accept Him. But once we accept Him and receive His salvation by grace through faith, THEN we are no longer free to reject Him - He will not allow it. So we are forced to stay saved, even if we turn our backs on Him, curse Him, and live for the devil. Or does He allow us to reject Him, with no consequences? When many of Jesus' disciples were leaving Him, Jesus asked the twelve, "You don't want to leave too, do you?" So He gave His apostles the freedom to leave Him if they wanted to. Or was He just toying with them, knowing that they couldn't leave even if they wanted to? OSAS doesn't agree with the Bible. There are too many warnings NOT to leave or we will face the same consequences as the lost. Welcome to the group Dwight I disagree with your assessment. We have free will after we are saved. The difference is, unlike having faith in a person, who will fail us from time to time, and may even fail us continually to the point we no longer trust them. God will never fail us. So those who have been born of him and experienced his true love (not just experienced it through others) and who actually KNOW God in an intimate way. Will never lose faith in him. Because God does not give us a reason to lose faith. we may lack faith in areas of our life (our besetting sin areas) or when different things happen, We may want to take control Because of our faith in that area, But remember, even God said faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. Thats how much faith we need for God to work. The man came to christ because the disciples could not heal his child. Jesus said do you believe. The man said yeah Lord but help me with my unbelief. Jesus healed his daughter.’ |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 17, 2022 2:18:43 GMT -8
Justification by obedience does not require one to work to keep the law flawlessly, but requires one to strive to keep the law as best as he can and seek forgiveness and grace from God for those time he fails and sins. This might make it appear that we must “Merit” Grace by “Striving ( another Word for ‘ working’) to keep a law that can NEVER Justify.....( ‘ By the Works Of The Law, NO FLESH will be Justified)...... Grace is “ UNMERITED FAVOR”......Accept that we are Saved and kept by Grace Plus Nothing, because if one tries to take the “ Striving” Route to Merit that which is impossible to merit, The Standard is PERFECTION—-24/7 If one chooses to “put themselves under the Law” , in ANY way, shape or form, that’s fine—— just accept the fact that you will also be under “The Curse Of The Law” .....the “ curse” is that the Standard is PERFECTION and nobody can pull it off...... The Bible never says that “ It is by “ striving to do our best ‘ that we are Saved... The Bible says that “ It is by GRACE that we are Saved” “ Striving” or “ Working “ to earn what can never “ BE” earned will cancel the very thing that Saves—- GRACE ! ( if it be by Works, it can’t be ofGrace) Don’t Fear Grace—— knowing that ALL of my Sins are covered by it, inspires one to Sin less—- not more....its the secret of living a life that pleases God...... I am free to do whatever I “want”......and just what exactly do I “ Want?”.......I want to live a life that please the One who Shed His Blood so that I could live in this Grace.... I John wrote a whole letter to us, in it he stated he wrote those things so we may KNOW we HAVE eternal life. And through this knowledge continue to believe. Our living hope is based on the knowledge or trust God keeps his word. And we have eternal life as he promised. It is what empowers us to continue to run, even when we fail. Because we can come to our Abba as a father who has more love to give that we can even fathom, Knowing hew will correct us, But he will always love us as his children. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 17, 2022 2:30:51 GMT -8
John Wesley on “Once Saved always Saved?” “Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way... They tell us, that somehow.... No virgin’s lamp can go out...(Matthew 25:8) No promising harvest can be choked with thorns...(Matthew 13:7) No branch in Christ can ever be cut off for unfruitfulness...(John 15:6) No pardon can ever be forfeited... (Matthew 18:32) They say that no name can be blotted out of God’s book! (Revelation 3:5; Exodus 32:33) They insist that no salt can ever lose its savour... (Matthew 5:13) That nobody can ever... “receive the grace of God in vain”... (2 Corinthians 6:1) “bury his talents”...(Matthew 25:18) “neglect such great salvation”... (Hebrews 2:3) trifle away “a day of grace”... (James 5:5) “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow... (Luke 9:62) Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,”... (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19) and strives no more, (Romans 11:21,22) nor “deny the Lord that bought them”... (2 Peter 2:1) nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.”.. (2 Peter 2:1) Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth... (Revelation 3:16) They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. (John 17:12) that if one falls, he never stood. (Romans 11:16-22 and Hebrews 6:4-6) if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never attached to the vine and once green. (John 15:1-6) and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. (Hebrews 10:38,39) that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. (Hebrews 6:4-6) that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. (2 Peter 2:20) that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, (Hebrews 10:35; Psalms 51:11) and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! (1 Timothy 1:19) In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God SAVE US... from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!” ~ John Wesley I disagree on John with those points. Number 1. OSAS is not strictly calvinist. I am not calvinist. In fact I reject calvinism and regeneration before justification. Yet I believe in eternal security. What many call once saved always saved. Or security in Christ. What I also believe is that those passages that he used I believe he misrepresented what was actually being said in them. Here is the big point. If we get it (The promise that we will never perish and have eternal life) and we can lose it. Is it really eternal life. Does never not really mean never, does eternal not really mean eternal? It is God who promised those things, not based on what we did or did not do. But on what His son did (the cross) He came not to judge the world but to save it. And he sent his people out to help him offer the gift of life to the world. And all he said is we have to take it. Not reject it. Thats the so great salvation that Paul spoke of. Now many people Dec die to walk side by side, but not make the decision to actually take it.. Some make provisions for themselves. Well yes I will take it. But I can not believe it is free, I have to work to earn it.. so they reject the free gift and try to earn it.. Like the pharisees and jews did when christ came.. They rejected him and his gospel. And tried to make a different gospel. Others want to take it. But they love their sin. So they come along side. And after awhile you realize there is no change in them, they still act as the world acts. They are hears of the word but not doers. James called these people out as people who claimed to have faith (claimed to receive the gift) but their faith was dead (non existent) they were actors. Who were trying out this new christian thing just in case. Or whatever reason (I have heard many walked with the church because they were blessed by association. But they did not trust in what they believed. They just wanted to hang out.) another thing I have noticed. A person james spoke to (licentious Judge called them) will call those who believe in faith in the work of christ and his promise of eternal life legalists. Because we will confront them on their sin as The word tells us too. And will not just let them “sin” as they want to In the same token, the legalist will call us licentious. Because we reject that we must strive to do good or meet some standard of personal righteousness or we will lose our salvation. So we love our sin and thus reject the gospel. Satan is so deceitful he turns the church against itself. And each side thinks they are right.. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 2:40:04 GMT -8
A lot riding on eternal meaning "unconditionally eternal." If I had something that would theoretically last for eternity if I don't lose it, I cannot call that "eternal" because it is "conditional" according to this logic. But conditional and eternal are not necessarily contradicting attributes, it does not make the attribute less eternal just because it is conditional. It's just a cheap little semantic trick to try to skip the whole debate.
I encourage you to look up all those warning passages, and ask God directly whether they apply to people who don't believe in Jesus or to people who already believe in Jesus. I encourage you—if you really are as sincere as you act, and don't just want a false security that makes you feel good, to fast a few days, print out these passages, and just ask God this question directly, because I am 100% sure of the answer.
The fact that no OSAS person has taken me up on this—even when I, myself, and more than willing to put the time in—betrays that in their heart of hearts they don't sincerely want the real answer from God.
They just want to believe what comforts them.
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Post by civic on Aug 17, 2022 3:56:09 GMT -8
Hi, this is dwight92070 - not sure if I need to use the numbers. I'm new on this site, as of today. Just one note on OSAS - I don't think I read this above. If OSAS is the truth, then we have free will before we are saved, but once we get saved, we lose our free will. In other words, we are free to accept Christ or reject Christ before we actually DO accept Him. But once we accept Him and receive His salvation by grace through faith, THEN we are no longer free to reject Him - He will not allow it. So we are forced to stay saved, even if we turn our backs on Him, curse Him, and live for the devil. Or does He allow us to reject Him, with no consequences? When many of Jesus' disciples were leaving Him, Jesus asked the twelve, "You don't want to leave too, do you?" So He gave His apostles the freedom to leave Him if they wanted to. Or was He just toying with them, knowing that they couldn't leave even if they wanted to? OSAS doesn't agree with the Bible. There are too many warnings NOT to leave or we will face the same consequences as the lost. Welcome to our forum and its great to see you here. Thank you for joining ! |
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