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Post by rickstudies on Oct 26, 2022 0:29:51 GMT -8
The Bible lists 4 events that must take place before the first ressurection will occur. 1 Elijah comes 2 a large number of people quit Christianity 3 the antichrist sits in the Jerusalem Temple and says he is god 4 The sun and moon are darkened If God is determined to fulfill all the words of the prophets as Jesus claimed He does, then these 4 events are inevitable. Lists without scripture are meaningless. Well..... according to Jesus, Matthew 17:9-139When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.” 10And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did [d]to him whatever they wanted. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer [e]at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist. Elijah has already come. This is what happens when the Old Testament is relied upon to the exclusion of the New Testament's witness and Christianity is Judaized. Hmmm... assuming that is a reference to 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
It's the man of lawlessness, not the antichrist that does the sitting and declaring. There's nothing in the Bible that equates the two. It has always been an assumption the two are identical. According to the very next verse the believers in Thessalonica knew what was holding that man back, which means if he's a man and he was alive in the first century (how could he be restrained if he wasn't alive and living?) then he has come and gone. Furthermore, there were two temples existing when Paul wrote the Thessalonians, one of which is still standing. Since there's not a single verse in the entire Bible that says a third temple of stone will be built... the context dictates the temple Paul is referencing is one of the two existing at that time. The " mystery of lawlessness" was already at work back then. That is what the text actually states. I don't care what the various eschatologies say it says. What it states is what it states. It's the man of lawlessness sitting in the temple, not the antichrist. Do not conflate the two without scripture. Do not conflate the two without cause. . Got scripture for that? I can't find the word " Christianity" in my Bible at all. In order for Christians to quuite Christianity the saints would have to stop being saints, the bondservants would have to stop being bondservants, those called out would have to stop being those called out. It's a messed-up theology that says Christians can stop being Christians. Poseurs were never Christians in the first place. Ah, yes, Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24... Matthew 24:29 KJVImmediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light...After the tribulation, not before. NOT pre-trib. However, there's another problem with the way this verse is handled by modern futurists, especially those of the Dispensational variety who are taught to read scripture literally. First, the moon has no light of its own. The moon is reflective. The only light the moon gives off is as a reflection of the sun. The sun, on the other hand is a direct source of light. The source of the sun's light is nuclear fusion. Two hydrogen atoms fuse to form helium. It takes the light the sun gives off about 8 minutes and 20 seconds to reach the earth, so the sun would be darkened for eight minutes before anyone knew it had stopped shining. In order for that to happen all its nuclear fusion would have to cease! All photosynthesis on the planet would instantly cease the moment the sun's light stopped hitting the earth. Some larger trees could survive that for many years but all the smaller vegetation would die. The planet would no longer be warmed. Within a week the temperature would by -4F/-20C and within a few months the freezing temperatures would cause and all human life would cease to exist. Before that happens the waters of the earth would freeze - even the surface of the oceans would freeze over - and that would cause all water-dependent life to cease. The two closest stars are Proxima Centauri and Alpha Centauri, about 4.2-3 light-years away. That means if it was falling at the speed of light it would take 4.5 years for those two stars to reach earth. If the sun was not shining during that time all life on earth would be gone (with the possible exception of some bacteria). If one of them struck the earth moving at the speed of life the earth would be instantly pulverized into dust. That's just one star. A year and a half later the next closest star, Barnard's Star would reach the place in space where the earth had once been... but the earth wouldn't be there because one of the Centauri stars had smashed the earth into none-existence. The shifts in gravity of those stars and the non-existent earth no longer being in their God-fixed points in the universe would cause the entire gravitation field of the universe to change. That is NOT what Jesus is saying. It is a metaphor. It's figurative language and the best means to understand what he is saying is to look at other scripture to see what God's word reveals about falling stars. But the point most germane to this op is that it happens after the tribulation, not before and whatever it is, it is not literal stars literally falling onto the earth. lol. As has already been pointed out, 2 Thes. 2:3 is a conditional matter. If there's no apostasy, then there's no man of lawlessness and if there's no man of lawlessness then there's no day of the Lord. Furthermore, according to the Bible, at least two of the four precursors have come and gone a long time ago, one of them is conditional (i.e., God is NOT determined) and might never happen, and the fourth is not to be taken literally. That is if we read scripture exactly as written and don't let modern futurist eschatologies skew our reading of what is plainly stated. Do you now see why I asked why this op wasn't posted in the End Times board? At any rate, I completely agree. The pre-tribulation position is untenable simply because it contradicts several explicit statements in the Bible (but so does a lot of modern-futurism  ). Revelation is sequential and Revelation 14 is no exception. The 5th seal is the tribulation. No I don`t see why you asked because it isn`t your buisiness where I choose to place a post. And I can easily give a rebuttal to all your remarks but the problem is that I dislike trying to have a dialog with you. For that reason I`m letting this go and wish I hadn`t bothered to respond to you. |
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Post by rickstudies on Oct 26, 2022 1:06:08 GMT -8
Sorry Hal but your opinion isn`t Biblical. Why you want to be that way is between you and the Lord.
I have a feeling that this forum is going to be taken over by some sects and ruin it before it can sprout wings. Perhaps you should be reflecting on your own words and attitude instead of worrying about mine. We could have had an interesting exchange of views but you`d rather declare yourself to have special knowledge while declaring my knowledge to be inadequate and a variety of other unsavory things. Now you appear to be engaging me with Ad Hominem which makes your lecturing pretty hypocritical. You revealed that your sacred recording is a precurser of the Hal Lindsey school of thought. That makes your remarks about my knowledge pretty abrasive because I bought and studied a shelf full of his books years ago. Until I discovered his mistakes my endtime views mirrored his and for the most part my theology is compatable with his Baptist theology to this very day. I know that because I studied more than just his prophecy books. My journey began in 1978 when I read "Late Great" as a teenager and I am well acquainted with all the various rapture views. Instead of thinking you are going to rescue me with your special wisdom you should have just enjoyed the conversation and learned why I believe what I do. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2022 7:02:39 GMT -8
Lists without scripture are meaningless. Well..... according to Jesus, Matthew 17:9-139When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.” 10And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did [d]to him whatever they wanted. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer [e]at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist. Elijah has already come. This is what happens when the Old Testament is relied upon to the exclusion of the New Testament's witness and Christianity is Judaized. Hmmm... assuming that is a reference to 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
It's the man of lawlessness, not the antichrist that does the sitting and declaring. There's nothing in the Bible that equates the two. It has always been an assumption the two are identical. According to the very next verse the believers in Thessalonica knew what was holding that man back, which means if he's a man and he was alive in the first century (how could he be restrained if he wasn't alive and living?) then he has come and gone. Furthermore, there were two temples existing when Paul wrote the Thessalonians, one of which is still standing. Since there's not a single verse in the entire Bible that says a third temple of stone will be built... the context dictates the temple Paul is referencing is one of the two existing at that time. The " mystery of lawlessness" was already at work back then. That is what the text actually states. I don't care what the various eschatologies say it says. What it states is what it states. It's the man of lawlessness sitting in the temple, not the antichrist. Do not conflate the two without scripture. Do not conflate the two without cause. . Got scripture for that? I can't find the word " Christianity" in my Bible at all. In order for Christians to quuite Christianity the saints would have to stop being saints, the bondservants would have to stop being bondservants, those called out would have to stop being those called out. It's a messed-up theology that says Christians can stop being Christians. Poseurs were never Christians in the first place. Ah, yes, Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24... Matthew 24:29 KJVImmediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light...After the tribulation, not before. NOT pre-trib. However, there's another problem with the way this verse is handled by modern futurists, especially those of the Dispensational variety who are taught to read scripture literally. First, the moon has no light of its own. The moon is reflective. The only light the moon gives off is as a reflection of the sun. The sun, on the other hand is a direct source of light. The source of the sun's light is nuclear fusion. Two hydrogen atoms fuse to form helium. It takes the light the sun gives off about 8 minutes and 20 seconds to reach the earth, so the sun would be darkened for eight minutes before anyone knew it had stopped shining. In order for that to happen all its nuclear fusion would have to cease! All photosynthesis on the planet would instantly cease the moment the sun's light stopped hitting the earth. Some larger trees could survive that for many years but all the smaller vegetation would die. The planet would no longer be warmed. Within a week the temperature would by -4F/-20C and within a few months the freezing temperatures would cause and all human life would cease to exist. Before that happens the waters of the earth would freeze - even the surface of the oceans would freeze over - and that would cause all water-dependent life to cease. The two closest stars are Proxima Centauri and Alpha Centauri, about 4.2-3 light-years away. That means if it was falling at the speed of light it would take 4.5 years for those two stars to reach earth. If the sun was not shining during that time all life on earth would be gone (with the possible exception of some bacteria). If one of them struck the earth moving at the speed of life the earth would be instantly pulverized into dust. That's just one star. A year and a half later the next closest star, Barnard's Star would reach the place in space where the earth had once been... but the earth wouldn't be there because one of the Centauri stars had smashed the earth into none-existence. The shifts in gravity of those stars and the non-existent earth no longer being in their God-fixed points in the universe would cause the entire gravitation field of the universe to change. That is NOT what Jesus is saying. It is a metaphor. It's figurative language and the best means to understand what he is saying is to look at other scripture to see what God's word reveals about falling stars. But the point most germane to this op is that it happens after the tribulation, not before and whatever it is, it is not literal stars literally falling onto the earth. lol. As has already been pointed out, 2 Thes. 2:3 is a conditional matter. If there's no apostasy, then there's no man of lawlessness and if there's no man of lawlessness then there's no day of the Lord. Furthermore, according to the Bible, at least two of the four precursors have come and gone a long time ago, one of them is conditional (i.e., God is NOT determined) and might never happen, and the fourth is not to be taken literally. That is if we read scripture exactly as written and don't let modern futurist eschatologies skew our reading of what is plainly stated. Do you now see why I asked why this op wasn't posted in the End Times board? At any rate, I completely agree. The pre-tribulation position is untenable simply because it contradicts several explicit statements in the Bible (but so does a lot of modern-futurism ). Revelation is sequential and Revelation 14 is no exception. The 5th seal is the tribulation. No I don`t see why you asked because it isn`t your business where I choose to place a post. And I can easily give a rebuttal to all your remarks but the problem is that I dislike trying to have a dialog with you. For that reason I`m letting this go and wish I hadn`t bothered to respond to you. Aside from the fact this post ignores everything in the previous post (so you're talking past me, not with me), Revelation is not entirely sequential. It recapitulates itself three times. Furthermore, Revelation itself tells us the content in the revelation pertains to things that were seen by John (already) things that were then currently existing, and things that would follow afterwards (after the current events). Revelation 1:19
Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
- Things John had seen.
- Things which were at that time.
- Things which will occur after the things John had already seen and the things which existed at the time of the Revelation.
In other words, only a third of the vision pertains to events in John's future. That is the sequence asserted by the revelation itself and the book tells us not to add to it or subtract from it!!! Btw, John said he was a partaker in the tribulation. Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
That is what it actually states. Let's take a look at that. Revelation 14:1-20
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless. And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters." And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality." Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them." Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.
No mention whatsoever of any tribulation, much less the great tribulation. The fifth seal is described in chapter 6, not 14. Which means - according to you - chapter 14 is post-tribulation because " Revelation is sequential." You've just contradicted yourself! If Revelation is sequential then the events of chapter 6 precede the events of chapter 14. Not only is that a problem for any reading of Revelation but it's a huge problem specifically for the claims being posted here. If Revelation is sequential then 6 comes long before 14. Here's what Chapter 6 states about the fifth seal... Revelation 6:9-11
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Note the souls of the slain already exist under the altar. They are asking for avenging judgment upon those who put them there. They were told to rest, to wait, until all the martyrs were gathered (there were more to come. Most importantly, there's no mention of tribulation in chapter 6, either. The word "tribulation" occurs only five times in the book of Revelation and only two of them are explicitly reported to be about any "great tribulation. " Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Revelation 7:13-14
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."That is it. Just those two mentions. Do please read through the book of Revelation and verify those facts because a lot of modern futurist teachers do not teach this correctly. More importantly, you have gone on record stating Revelation is sequential. If that is true the chapters 2 and 7 have to do with the great tribulation and not chapter 14. If Revelation is sequential, as you claim, the chapter 14 is post-tribulation. According to verse 7:14, the tribulation had come and gone by chapter 7. Those clothed in white were those who had already come out of the great tribulation. Maybe all those biases should be shed, and the word of God be allowed speak for itself. That is incorrect. As members of the forum, we all have an investment in the forum, and it is the poster who thinks he can covenant with others and then do whatever he likes that has the problem. You don't seem to understand the problem is I am posting as I please and you are posting as you please but only one of us is respecting the structures and rules of the forum. It please me to stick to the op as the author of the op asserts it, sincerely wondering why this particular op wasn't posted in the board designated for the topics and the answer is, " Because I can do what I want!" That's a you problem, and one you are eventually going to have to deal with one way or another. I encourage and exhort you to do so as a Christian indwelt with the exact same Spirit of God as everyone else here, and in obedience to God's word when it teaches us how to interact with one another. If you can then I think you should. How do you know that? You never try.  You get caught up in your own emotions and then post off-topic nonsense like this. You have the temeirty to dislike someone you've never met even when they agree with your op. . Yep. I completely agree. But I haven't once read you acknowledge that agreement. Instead, you've started an argument where none exists. That's all on you, rick. Pre-trib is not a position that can be defended given the clear statements of scripture to the contrary. I posted them (and you've not acknowledged them when you easily could and heal yourself of your own dislike). So how about you say, " Thanks, Josh. I appreciate your agreement with this op AND the scriptures you posted to refute the Pre-Trib position. I regret making a big deal out of your question about the board because it's not that important." Try it. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Oct 26, 2022 9:58:22 GMT -8
Perhaps you should be reflecting on your own words and attitude instead of worrying about mine. We could have had an interesting exchange of views but you`d rather declare yourself to have special knowledge while declaring my knowledge to be inadequate and a variety of other unsavory things. Now you appear to be engaging me with Ad Hominem which makes your lecturing pretty hypocritical.You revealed that your sacred recording is a precurser of the Hal Lindsey school of thought. |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Dec 29, 2022 17:12:54 GMT -8
prior to tribulation He will get all of us His 144k
out of this prison earth
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Dec 29, 2022 17:14:58 GMT -8
Go take your vacation. I will be in Ireland for the next two weeks for my sons wedding :) I hope you and your family had a lovely time together with your son and his wife at their wedding. ❤️ |
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SteveB
New Member
Learning to follow Jesus
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Post by SteveB on Dec 30, 2022 19:05:37 GMT -8
Pre Trib? I don`t think so. Defend it if you think you can just please post scripture, I will reject propaganda and likely not even say why. Luke 21:34-36 Luke 21:34-36 NKJV — “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. “For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV — But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 NKJV — But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation 3:7-13 NKJV — “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, ‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. “Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ Ok. I've provided a few of the scriptures that I think support a pretrib rapture. My question now becomes... What do you think that the tribulation period is? According to Daniel 9:20-27, with the emphasis on vs 27, it's the 70th week of the time God promised to Israel. We see that the first half is distinct from the second half. A covenant is made and then broken in the middle. Thus, the tribulation period is the final 7 years of human history prior to the Kingdom of God on earth for the millennium. In Jeremiah 30:5, it's known as the "time to Jacob's Trouble." Elsewhere in Daniel we read that the coming world leader will deceive by prosperity. Daniel 8:25 NKJV — “Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means. The question here becomes.... Since the tribulation is about Israel, and not the church, why would the church be sent into a period of time dedicated entirely to Israel and the world? Note 2 Thessalonians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NKJV — The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. As noted in Romans 1, the wrath of God is poured out on those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. "After the Wrath" is often argued by those who believe in midtrib rapture. The problem is that the wrath of God begins when the restrainer, restrains no more. Next, the church is the bride of Christ. Why would he send his bride into a period where God is pouring out his wrath on a Christ rejecting world? I recognize that the church of thyatira is to be cast into a period of trouble. They are just one of seven churches described in Revelation 2-3. Note then in Matthew 25. The parable of the 10 virgins. 5 were ready, and 5 were not ready. Note that the 5 not ready virgins were left behind when the groom came. Going back to the Luke 21:34-36 passage. He's giving us the wherewithal to escape the coming wrath. |
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Post by civic on Dec 31, 2022 5:56:22 GMT -8
Pre Trib? I don`t think so. Defend it if you think you can just please post scripture, I will reject propaganda and likely not even say why. Luke 21:34-36 Luke 21:34-36 NKJV — “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. “For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV — But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 NKJV — But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation 3:7-13 NKJV — “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, ‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. “Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ Ok. I've provided a few of the scriptures that I think support a pretrib rapture. My question now becomes... What do you think that the tribulation period is? According to Daniel 9:20-27, with the emphasis on vs 27, it's the 70th week of the time God promised to Israel. We see that the first half is distinct from the second half. A covenant is made and then broken in the middle. Thus, the tribulation period is the final 7 years of human history prior to the Kingdom of God on earth for the millennium. In Jeremiah 30:5, it's known as the "time to Jacob's Trouble." Elsewhere in Daniel we read that the coming world leader will deceive by prosperity. Daniel 8:25 NKJV — “Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means. The question here becomes.... Since the tribulation is about Israel, and not the church, why would the church be sent into a period of time dedicated entirely to Israel and the world? Note 2 Thessalonians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NKJV — The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. As noted in Romans 1, the wrath of God is poured out on those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. "After the Wrath" is often argued by those who believe in midtrib rapture. The problem is that the wrath of God begins when the restrainer, restrains no more. Next, the church is the bride of Christ. Why would he send his bride into a period where God is pouring out his wrath on a Christ rejecting world? I recognize that the church of thyatira is to be cast into a period of trouble. They are just one of seven churches described in Revelation 2-3. Note then in Matthew 25. The parable of the 10 virgins. 5 were ready, and 5 were not ready. Note that the 5 not ready virgins were left behind when the groom came. Going back to the Luke 21:34-36 passage. He's giving us the wherewithal to escape the coming wrath. The reason most calvinists are opposed to it is because of replacement theology. |
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Post by Parker on Dec 31, 2022 6:34:32 GMT -8
SteveBThanks for giving me something to study today Steve. Pre-Tribulation Rapture makes sense to me. In accordance with Jewish custom, when a man came of age to marry, he would add a room on to his father’s house for himself and his bride. When the addition was complete, and when the father gave the go-ahead, a trumpet would sound, and the bridegroom would go to meet his bride. Following the wedding ceremony, the bridegroom would take his bride to his father’s house, where they would be tucked away for seven days in the newly completed “bridal suite.” At the end of seven days, the bridegroom would come out with his bride and introduce her to the community. That’s exactly what’s going to happen with us. Jesus, our Bridegroom, is preparing a place for us in heaven, His Father’s house (John 14:2). At the appointed time known only by the Father, a trumpet will sound and Jesus will meet us, His bride, in the air to escort us up to the “Bridal Suite” He has prepared for us. We will remain with Him in heaven for seven years before we are presented to the world, where we will rule and reign with Him. As to your question : “My question now becomes...What do you think that the tribulation period is?” I'm going to do a deep dive into it right now.
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SteveB
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Post by SteveB on Dec 31, 2022 10:24:07 GMT -8
SteveB Thanks for giving me something to study today Steve. Pre-Tribulation Rapture makes sense to me. In accordance with Jewish custom, when a man came of age to marry, he would add a room on to his father’s house for himself and his bride. When the addition was complete, and when the father gave the go-ahead, a trumpet would sound, and the bridegroom would go to meet his bride. Following the wedding ceremony, the bridegroom would take his bride to his father’s house, where they would be tucked away for seven days in the newly completed “bridal suite.” At the end of seven days, the bridegroom would come out with his bride and introduce her to the community. That’s exactly what’s going to happen with us. Jesus, our Bridegroom, is preparing a place for us in heaven, His Father’s house (John 14:2). At the appointed time known only by the Father, a trumpet will sound and Jesus will meet us, His bride, in the air to escort us up to the “Bridal Suite” He has prepared for us. We will remain with Him in heaven for seven years before we are presented to the world, where we will rule and reign with Him. As to your question : “My question now becomes...What do you think that the tribulation period is?” I'm going to do a deep dive into it right now. Awesome! Study is the point. We're enjoined to study, search, and make inquiry. Acts 17:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22, and 2 Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17 The goal is to increase our understanding and perspective. As you're working through this, make sure that you include God in it, through prayer and supplication and thanksgiving- Philippians 4:6-9 |
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Post by civic on Jan 1, 2023 6:24:35 GMT -8
SteveB Thanks for giving me something to study today Steve. Pre-Tribulation Rapture makes sense to me. In accordance with Jewish custom, when a man came of age to marry, he would add a room on to his father’s house for himself and his bride. When the addition was complete, and when the father gave the go-ahead, a trumpet would sound, and the bridegroom would go to meet his bride. Following the wedding ceremony, the bridegroom would take his bride to his father’s house, where they would be tucked away for seven days in the newly completed “bridal suite.” At the end of seven days, the bridegroom would come out with his bride and introduce her to the community. That’s exactly what’s going to happen with us. Jesus, our Bridegroom, is preparing a place for us in heaven, His Father’s house (John 14:2). At the appointed time known only by the Father, a trumpet will sound and Jesus will meet us, His bride, in the air to escort us up to the “Bridal Suite” He has prepared for us. We will remain with Him in heaven for seven years before we are presented to the world, where we will rule and reign with Him. As to your question : “My question now becomes...What do you think that the tribulation period is?” I'm going to do a deep dive into it right now. Awesome! Study is the point. We're enjoined to study, search, and make inquiry. Acts 17:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22, and 2 Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17 The goal is to increase our understanding and perspective. As you're working through this, make sure that you include God in it, through prayer and supplication and thanksgiving- Philippians 4:6-9 Yes this is so true Steve . We are discussing this with our Thursday morning mens discipleship group that meets every week. In fact we are having a leadership group meeting tomorrow morning at the pastors house to discuss this topic. Great scripture references brother. Those are on my list of discussion for tomorrow.  |
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SteveB
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Post by SteveB on Jan 1, 2023 10:40:03 GMT -8
Awesome! Study is the point. We're enjoined to study, search, and make inquiry. Acts 17:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22, and 2 Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17 The goal is to increase our understanding and perspective. As you're working through this, make sure that you include God in it, through prayer and supplication and thanksgiving- Philippians 4:6-9 Yes this is so true Steve . We are discussing this with our Thursday morning mens discipleship group that meets every week. In fact we are having a leadership group meeting tomorrow morning at the pastors house to discuss this topic. Great scripture references brother. Those are on my list of discussion for tomorrow. Morning C. Welcome to '23. Calvary Chapel has a pretty comprehensive discussion about the pre-trib view. A more recent study is with Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. Jack Hibbs. To me the key thing regarding the distinction between pre/mid/post appears to be what the tribulation period is. Looking at the 7 letters to the 7 churches, it's pretty clear that there are parts of the church that does indeed go through the tribulation period. Yet, in each of these letters, it's clear that Jesus is giving us a means to turn to him and that will give us the wherewithal to escape the tribulation period. To me, Luke 21:34-36 is the perfect example of this point. 1- what is the tribulation period? 2- who are the key players? 3- what is the purpose of the tribulation period? 4- is there a way to make sure that we're not part of it? 5- what does Jesus have to say about it? 6- do the prophets talk about it? 7- what do they have to say about it? 8- who is the church to Jesus? 9- why would the bride of Christ experience the tribulation period if the groom gave her a way not to experience it? Have a great discussion. I highly doubt that these questions will be answered in a single study. But they should generate a very extensive amount of study, and biblical research. Grace and Peace be with you. In Christ. 😎❣ |
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 1, 2023 14:01:11 GMT -8
Here is the best study I've found on Revelation2020 version of VBVMI's most popular Bible study was updated with new content and visuals, including video for all lessons |
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Post by civic on Jan 1, 2023 18:33:47 GMT -8
Yes this is so true Steve . We are discussing this with our Thursday morning mens discipleship group that meets every week. In fact we are having a leadership group meeting tomorrow morning at the pastors house to discuss this topic. Great scripture references brother. Those are on my list of discussion for tomorrow. Morning C. Welcome to '23. Calvary Chapel has a pretty comprehensive discussion about the pre-trib view. A more recent study is with Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. Jack Hibbs. To me the key thing regarding the distinction between pre/mid/post appears to be what the tribulation period is. Looking at the 7 letters to the 7 churches, it's pretty clear that there are parts of the church that does indeed go through the tribulation period. Yet, in each of these letters, it's clear that Jesus is giving us a means to turn to him and that will give us the wherewithal to escape the tribulation period. To me, Luke 21:34-36 is the perfect example of this point. 1- what is the tribulation period? 2- who are the key players? 3- what is the purpose of the tribulation period? 4- is there a way to make sure that we're not part of it? 5- what does Jesus have to say about it? 6- do the prophets talk about it? 7- what do they have to say about it? 8- who is the church to Jesus? 9- why would the bride of Christ experience the tribulation period if the groom gave her a way not to experience it? Have a great discussion. I highly doubt that these questions will be answered in a single study. But they should generate a very extensive amount of study, and biblical research. Grace and Peace be with you. In Christ. 😎❣ Thanks Steve. I haven't dug into eschatology in years is was mt passion in my 20's and 30's. I'm in my 60's now. Maybe its time for a refresher. |
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SteveB
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Post by SteveB on Jan 1, 2023 21:04:48 GMT -8
Morning C. Welcome to '23. Calvary Chapel has a pretty comprehensive discussion about the pre-trib view. A more recent study is with Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. Jack Hibbs. To me the key thing regarding the distinction between pre/mid/post appears to be what the tribulation period is. Looking at the 7 letters to the 7 churches, it's pretty clear that there are parts of the church that does indeed go through the tribulation period. Yet, in each of these letters, it's clear that Jesus is giving us a means to turn to him and that will give us the wherewithal to escape the tribulation period. To me, Luke 21:34-36 is the perfect example of this point. 1- what is the tribulation period? 2- who are the key players? 3- what is the purpose of the tribulation period? 4- is there a way to make sure that we're not part of it? 5- what does Jesus have to say about it? 6- do the prophets talk about it? 7- what do they have to say about it? 8- who is the church to Jesus? 9- why would the bride of Christ experience the tribulation period if the groom gave her a way not to experience it? Have a great discussion. I highly doubt that these questions will be answered in a single study. But they should generate a very extensive amount of study, and biblical research. Grace and Peace be with you. In Christ. 😎❣ Thanks Steve. I haven't dug into eschatology in years is was mt passion in my 20's and 30's. I'm in my 60's now. Maybe its time for a refresher. Yeah. It was the same for me in my 20's. By my mid 20's I stopped focusing on prophecy and I realized years later that I became too comfortable in this life. Several years ago I was reminded of the importance of my being ready for his coming, even though I have no way to know the day or hour of his coming. Check out what Jesus says regarding the unfaithful steward, and the people to whom the king gave talents/minas. The awareness of the imminent return of the king was what held the attention of the servants. The disregard or dismissal of his return is what made them unfaithful in their service. |
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You get caught up in your own emotions and then post off-topic nonsense like this. You have the temeirty to dislike someone you've never met even when they agree with your op.
