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Post by civic on Aug 9, 2022 4:31:33 GMT -8
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows. See also John 5:24;40
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in Acts 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
The Biblical Order Salutis
Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.
1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30
hope this helps !!!
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toml
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by toml on Aug 9, 2022 5:13:10 GMT -8
Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! Notice what comes first 1- Repent , turn away from sin 2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life) 3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit. John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. John 1:12-13 “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31 “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.Ephesians 1:13 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ? conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order. 1- hearing the word, the gospel 2- believing the gospel 3- receiving the gospel 4- calling upon the Lord 5- confessing Jesus is Lord 6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life The Biblical Order Salutis Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture. 1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10 2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10 3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12 4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12 5- repentance Luke 5:32 6- the new birth that results in #7 7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13 8- Justification- Rom 8:30 9- Sanctification- Rom 8 10- Glorification Rom 8:30 hope this helps !!! Also The following verses show faith precedes life John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:40 (KJV) 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith) Acts 11:18 (KJV) 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God - One is made a child of God through faith Galatians 3:26 (KJV) 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. John 12:36 (KJV) 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living) We are raised spiritually through faith Colossians 2:12 (KJV) 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel James 1:18 (KJV) 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV) 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation Titus 3:5 (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved it is through faith we are saved EPH 2:8 (KJV) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: .through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin Colossians 2:13 (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; God regenerates those he has forgiven forgiveness requires both faith and repentance Acts 10:43 (KJV) 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Luke 24:47 (KJV) 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 5:31 (KJV) 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and |
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Post by civic on Aug 9, 2022 5:21:17 GMT -8
Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! Notice what comes first 1- Repent , turn away from sin 2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life) 3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit. John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. John 1:12-13 “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31 “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.Ephesians 1:13 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ? conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order. 1- hearing the word, the gospel 2- believing the gospel 3- receiving the gospel 4- calling upon the Lord 5- confessing Jesus is Lord 6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life The Biblical Order Salutis Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture. 1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10 2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10 3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12 4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12 5- repentance Luke 5:32 6- the new birth that results in #7 7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13 8- Justification- Rom 8:30 9- Sanctification- Rom 8 10- Glorification Rom 8:30 hope this helps !!! Also The following verses show faith precedes life John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:40 (KJV) 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith) Acts 11:18 (KJV) 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God - One is made a child of God through faith Galatians 3:26 (KJV) 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. John 12:36 (KJV) 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living) We are raised spiritually through faith Colossians 2:12 (KJV) 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel James 1:18 (KJV) 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV) 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation Titus 3:5 (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved it is through faith we are saved EPH 2:8 (KJV) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: .through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin Colossians 2:13 (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; God regenerates those he has forgiven forgiveness requires both faith and repentance Acts 10:43 (KJV) 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Luke 24:47 (KJV) 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 5:31 (KJV) 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and Thanks Tom I will add those verses . |
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toml
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by toml on Aug 9, 2022 5:55:38 GMT -8
Also The following verses show faith precedes life John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:40 (KJV) 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith) Acts 11:18 (KJV) 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God - One is made a child of God through faith Galatians 3:26 (KJV) 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. John 12:36 (KJV) 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living) We are raised spiritually through faith Colossians 2:12 (KJV) 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel James 1:18 (KJV) 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV) 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation Titus 3:5 (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved it is through faith we are saved EPH 2:8 (KJV) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: .through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin Colossians 2:13 (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; God regenerates those he has forgiven forgiveness requires both faith and repentance Acts 10:43 (KJV) 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Luke 24:47 (KJV) 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 5:31 (KJV) 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and Thanks Tom I will add those verses . I see it as a slam dunk against the Calvinist idea regeneration precedes faith |
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Post by civic on Aug 9, 2022 6:03:09 GMT -8
Thanks Tom I will add those verses . I see it as a slam dunk against the Calvinist idea regeneration precedes faith Yes their doctrines have no leg to stand on brother. It goes against the clear teaching in both testaments. Holding to that position creates nothing but contradictions with the majority of scripture but also confusion. |
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toml
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by toml on Aug 9, 2022 23:35:25 GMT -8
I see it as a slam dunk against the Calvinist idea regeneration precedes faith Yes their doctrines have no leg to stand on brother. It goes against the clear teaching in both testaments. Holding to that position creates nothing but contradictions with the majority of scripture but also confusion. its because of their belief God meticulously determines all things. its determinism which resides at the root of their error |
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Post by civic on Aug 10, 2022 5:51:31 GMT -8
Yes their doctrines have no leg to stand on brother. It goes against the clear teaching in both testaments. Holding to that position creates nothing but contradictions with the majority of scripture but also confusion. its because of their belief God meticulously determines all things. its determinism which resides at the root of their error Yes its what fatalism/divine meticulous determinism results in brother, you are spot on ! |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 10, 2022 10:09:22 GMT -8
the penalty of sin is death
how can one possibly be made alive (regenerated) before the penalty of sin (justification)takes place?
John 3 Jesus said we are born again (regenerated)by faith
"just as moses lifted the serpent. so must the son of man be lifted up. that whoever believes in him shall not perish BUT HAS ETERNAL LIFE (regeneration)
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toml
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by toml on Aug 10, 2022 23:32:15 GMT -8
the penalty of sin is death how can one possibly be made alive (regenerated) before the penalty of sin (justification)takes place? |
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Deleted
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Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2022 11:06:00 GMT -8
Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! Notice what comes first 1- Repent , turn away from sin 2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life) 3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit. John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. John 1:12-13 “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31 “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.Ephesians 1:13 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ? conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order. 1- hearing the word, the gospel 2- believing the gospel 3- receiving the gospel 4- calling upon the Lord 5- confessing Jesus is Lord 6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life The Biblical Order Salutis Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture. 1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10 2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10 3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12 4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12 5- repentance Luke 5:32 6- the new birth that results in #7 7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13 8- Justification- Rom 8:30 9- Sanctification- Rom 8 10- Glorification Rom 8:30 hope this helps !!! Also The following verses show faith precedes life John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:40 (KJV) 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith) Acts 11:18 (KJV) 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God - One is made a child of God through faith Galatians 3:26 (KJV) 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. John 12:36 (KJV) 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living) We are raised spiritually through faith Colossians 2:12 (KJV) 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel James 1:18 (KJV) 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV) 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation Titus 3:5 (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved it is through faith we are saved EPH 2:8 (KJV) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: .through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin Colossians 2:13 (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; God regenerates those he has forgiven forgiveness requires both faith and repentance Acts 10:43 (KJV) 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Luke 24:47 (KJV) 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 5:31 (KJV) 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and I would like to be shown someone in the Bible that the Bible itself explicitly reports having faith in the God they do not believe exists. I would also like to be shown the person in the Bible the Bible explicitly reports repenting from the sin they also do not believe exists. Remember the overarching context of scripture. There are very few atheists mentioned anywhere in scripture. The vast majority of scripture is about people who already believe some kind of god or gods exist. Almost every word about faith is written in the already existing, pervasive and inherent condition wherein people already have some kind of belief in some kind of god. MOST of the Bible is speaking about faith in the context of those people who already live in a covenant relationship with God AND every single one of those covenants was initiated by God AND initiated by God only AFTER He had initiated the covenant. There were no choices offered prior to His having first brought them into the covenant He alone initiated without their permission. ALL of that is soteriologically important. So show me the two people I requested, and if they do not exist in the Bible then perhaps we can discuss that silence. Otherwise, every single verse listed in the op is about covenant people/people already believing in God and not a single verse applies to the atheist needing salvation. One other thing I'd like answered and addressed: Is salvation from sin and the wrath of God a spiritual matter? If so, then how so? If not, then how or why is regeneration of the spirit relevant? |
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toml
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by toml on Aug 11, 2022 23:51:26 GMT -8
Also The following verses show faith precedes life John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:40 (KJV) 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith) Acts 11:18 (KJV) 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God - One is made a child of God through faith Galatians 3:26 (KJV) 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. John 12:36 (KJV) 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living) We are raised spiritually through faith Colossians 2:12 (KJV) 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel James 1:18 (KJV) 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV) 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation Titus 3:5 (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved it is through faith we are saved EPH 2:8 (KJV) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: .through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin Colossians 2:13 (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; God regenerates those he has forgiven forgiveness requires both faith and repentance Acts 10:43 (KJV) 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Luke 24:47 (KJV) 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 5:31 (KJV) 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and I would like to be shown someone in the Bible that the Bible itself explicitly reports having faith in the God they do not believe exists. I would also like to be shown the person in the Bible the Bible explicitly reports repenting from the sin they also do not believe exists. Remember the overarching context of scripture. There are very few atheists mentioned anywhere in scripture. The vast majority of scripture is about people who already believe some kind of god or gods exist. Almost every word about faith is written in the already existing, pervasive and inherent condition wherein people already have some kind of belief in some kind of god. MOST of the Bible is speaking about faith in the context of those people who already live in a covenant relationship with God AND every single one of those covenants was initiated by God AND initiated by God only AFTER He had initiated the covenant. There were no choices offered prior to His having first brought them into the covenant He alone initiated without their permission. ALL of that is soteriologically important. So show me the two people I requested, and if they do not exist in the Bible then perhaps we can discuss that silence. Otherwise, every single verse listed in the op is about covenant people/people already believing in God and not a single verse applies to the atheist needing salvation. One other thing I'd like answered and addressed: Is salvation from sin and the wrath of God a spiritual matter? If so, then how so? If not, then how or why is regeneration of the spirit relevant? Was that supposed to be a serious question? You are asking for someone who has faith while an unbeliever really ? Further you are not engaging the verses and simply trying to dismiss them with a fallacious argument Many people believe God exists but that does not make them saved or a covenant person for example Was Ruth a covenant person? Was Hagar? One must have faith in Christ to be saved John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Is this written to about those who already believe in Christ? The bible is full of people who did not know, did not worship, who had no relationship with the God of Abraham They were called gentiles and the bible lists the conversion of many of them |
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Post by SeventhDay on Aug 12, 2022 6:28:31 GMT -8
Also The following verses show faith precedes life John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:40 (KJV) 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith) Acts 11:18 (KJV) 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God - One is made a child of God through faith Galatians 3:26 (KJV) 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. John 12:36 (KJV) 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living) We are raised spiritually through faith Colossians 2:12 (KJV) 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel James 1:18 (KJV) 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV) 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation Titus 3:5 (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved it is through faith we are saved EPH 2:8 (KJV) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: .through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin Colossians 2:13 (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; God regenerates those he has forgiven forgiveness requires both faith and repentance Acts 10:43 (KJV) 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Luke 24:47 (KJV) 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 5:31 (KJV) 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and ==================================================================================================== ao91111z Said:Actually the scriptures teach that regeneration precedes faith in God because faith is given to the regenerate not to the natural carnal man dead in trespasses and sins. God is not even calling the old man to himself but when God calls the new spiritual man to himself then God's faith is a work in the new spiritual man who has spiritual ears, spiritual mind and a spiritual heart and he puts his trust in God who has called him to receive the good news message. A new heart means that God grants the new spiritual man spiritual repentance. How do we know that God is calling the new spiritual man and not the old man dead in trespasses and sins. It is the new spiritual man because the old man is dead with Christ in his death and is put away. 2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Now, after regeneration we are saved through faith which is a gift from God and God gives us the indwelling Holy Spirit. Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
It is those who are quickened out of death or regenerated that receive God through the faith of God at work in them that believe in his name and are given power to become sons of God. God is not calling the old man to himself but is making sons of God out of new spiritual creations.
God bless you. 
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 11:36:38 GMT -8
Yes, toml , my questions were serious and appeals to incredulity are always and everywhere fallacious. Neither do they answer the question asked. The problem is a sound doctrine of soteriology MUST cover the cases of the atheist, the unbeliever. Unbelievers are NOT believers. One of the fundamental problems in the monergism v synergism debate is, " How does an unbeliever become a believer?" since scripturally speaking, these two kinds of people are ontologically, existentially, and teleologically different and mutually exclusive people. And as I noted earlier, the Bible says very, very little about the atheist. That means the overwhelming number of verses about soteriological faith in the Bible CANNOT EVER be applied to the atheist because they are not to whom or about whom those scriptures are talking. It is ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE an exegetical error to take verses written about Christians and apply them to non-Christians or to take verses written about Jews and apply them to atheists. Christians are not atheists. Jews are not atheists. And that mixture of neglect of context and overgeneralized application is a very, very common mistake. It's rife in this opening post. It's not just an exegetical problem. There's a theological problem because the Bible is quite explicit and plain about God not wanting or needing ANYTHING from the sinful flesh BUT THAT IS ALL THE ATHEIST HAS!!! It does not matter whether the atheist has an inherent ability to learn, understand, receive, and choose the gospel when made known. Even if those faculties are a product of God's design the lack of Divine Spirit makes the learning, the knowing and understanding, the receiving, the choosing - ALL work of the sinful flesh. Unbelievers are not believers. Fleshly belief has no soteriological merit (regardless of its origin). There's a lot more to this but those two points are all that is necessary to preclude ALL the synergistic points of view. And when synergists are asked about this the response is always what we all just witnessed: obfuscation. Appeals to incredulity, red herrings, non sequiturs, eisegetic inference, false causes, and many other scripturally and logically fallacious content. Wouldn't it have been much more succinct, honest, and forthcoming to simply respond by saying, "There are no such people in scripture?" And THEN we'd have agreement. We'd have unity. We'd have something agreed upon to discuss that is DIRECTLY related to this opening post. For the record: I did in fact engage the verses cited in the op. The claim I did not is false. I specifically, explicitly, expressly noted they ALL pertained to believers in the existence of God and not a single one of them applied to atheists. Some form of belief is an implicit given in every single one of those verses, so they do not apply to those denying the existence of God, the existence of sin, the existence of any son of any god, or any need of repentance, forgiveness, justification, reconciliation, or salvation. The entire opening post amounts to a red herring because the foundational problem of sin in the UNBELIEVER is ignored other than to predicate any and all possibilities on the sinful flesh. So, yes, toml, my questions are serious. They are also valid and relevant. I did my part whether that was recognized or not. The questions asked were not answered. So answer them now, please, or don't expect further reply from me. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 12, 2022 23:44:26 GMT -8
Yes, toml , my questions were serious and appeals to incredulity are always and everywhere fallacious. Neither do they answer the question asked. The problem is a sound doctrine of soteriology MUST cover the cases of the atheist, the unbeliever. Unbelievers are NOT believers. One of the fundamental problems in the monergism v synergism debate is, " How does an unbeliever become a believer?" since scripturally speaking, these two kinds of people are ontologically, existentially, and teleologically different and mutually exclusive people. And as I noted earlier, the Bible says very, very little about the atheist. That means the overwhelming number of verses about soteriological faith in the Bible CANNOT EVER be applied to the atheist because they are not to whom or about whom those scriptures are talking. It is ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE an exegetical error to take verses written about Christians and apply them to non-Christians or to take verses written about Jews and apply them to atheists. Christians are not atheists. Jews are not atheists. And that mixture of neglect of context and overgeneralized application is a very, very common mistake. It's rife in this opening post. It's not just an exegetical problem. There's a theological problem because the Bible is quite explicit and plain about God not wanting or needing ANYTHING from the sinful flesh BUT THAT IS ALL THE ATHEIST HAS!!! It does not matter whether the atheist has an inherent ability to learn, understand, receive, and choose the gospel when made known. Even if those faculties are a product of God's design the lack of Divine Spirit makes the learning, the knowing and understanding, the receiving, the choosing - ALL work of the sinful flesh. Unbelievers are not believers. Fleshly belief has no soteriological merit (regardless of its origin). There's a lot more to this but those two points are all that is necessary to preclude ALL the synergistic points of view. And when synergists are asked about this the response is always what we all just witnessed: obfuscation. Appeals to incredulity, red herrings, non sequiturs, eisegetic inference, false causes, and many other scripturally and logically fallacious content. Wouldn't it have been much more succinct, honest, and forthcoming to simply respond by saying, "There are no such people in scripture?" And THEN we'd have agreement. We'd have unity. We'd have something agreed upon to discuss that is DIRECTLY related to this opening post. For the record: I did in fact engage the verses cited in the op. The claim I did not is false. I specifically, explicitly, expressly noted they ALL pertained to believers in the existence of God and not a single one of them applied to atheists. Some form of belief is an implicit given in every single one of those verses, so they do not apply to those denying the existence of God, the existence of sin, the existence of any son of any god, or any need of repentance, forgiveness, justification, reconciliation, or salvation. The entire opening post amounts to a red herring because the foundational problem of sin in the UNBELIEVER is ignored other than to predicate any and all possibilities on the sinful flesh. So, yes, toml, my questions are serious. They are also valid and relevant. I did my part whether that was recognized or not. The questions asked were not answered. So answer them now, please, or don't expect further reply from me. For the record you did not address a single verse and you did nothing to show that gentile unbelievers of the one true God were covenant peoples Ephesians 2:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Your questions were neither serious or relevant to the scriptures presented which show faith precedes regeneration |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2022 7:04:45 GMT -8
Yes, toml , my questions were serious and appeals to incredulity are always and everywhere fallacious. Neither do they answer the question asked. The problem is a sound doctrine of soteriology MUST cover the cases of the atheist, the unbeliever. Unbelievers are NOT believers. One of the fundamental problems in the monergism v synergism debate is, " How does an unbeliever become a believer?" since scripturally speaking, these two kinds of people are ontologically, existentially, and teleologically different and mutually exclusive people. And as I noted earlier, the Bible says very, very little about the atheist. That means the overwhelming number of verses about soteriological faith in the Bible CANNOT EVER be applied to the atheist because they are not to whom or about whom those scriptures are talking. It is ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE an exegetical error to take verses written about Christians and apply them to non-Christians or to take verses written about Jews and apply them to atheists. Christians are not atheists. Jews are not atheists. And that mixture of neglect of context and overgeneralized application is a very, very common mistake. It's rife in this opening post. It's not just an exegetical problem. There's a theological problem because the Bible is quite explicit and plain about God not wanting or needing ANYTHING from the sinful flesh BUT THAT IS ALL THE ATHEIST HAS!!! It does not matter whether the atheist has an inherent ability to learn, understand, receive, and choose the gospel when made known. Even if those faculties are a product of God's design the lack of Divine Spirit makes the learning, the knowing and understanding, the receiving, the choosing - ALL work of the sinful flesh. Unbelievers are not believers. Fleshly belief has no soteriological merit (regardless of its origin). There's a lot more to this but those two points are all that is necessary to preclude ALL the synergistic points of view. And when synergists are asked about this the response is always what we all just witnessed: obfuscation. Appeals to incredulity, red herrings, non sequiturs, eisegetic inference, false causes, and many other scripturally and logically fallacious content. Wouldn't it have been much more succinct, honest, and forthcoming to simply respond by saying, "There are no such people in scripture?" And THEN we'd have agreement. We'd have unity. We'd have something agreed upon to discuss that is DIRECTLY related to this opening post. For the record: I did in fact engage the verses cited in the op. The claim I did not is false. I specifically, explicitly, expressly noted they ALL pertained to believers in the existence of God and not a single one of them applied to atheists. Some form of belief is an implicit given in every single one of those verses, so they do not apply to those denying the existence of God, the existence of sin, the existence of any son of any god, or any need of repentance, forgiveness, justification, reconciliation, or salvation. The entire opening post amounts to a red herring because the foundational problem of sin in the UNBELIEVER is ignored other than to predicate any and all possibilities on the sinful flesh. So, yes, toml, my questions are serious. They are also valid and relevant. I did my part whether that was recognized or not. The questions asked were not answered. So answer them now, please, or don't expect further reply from me. For the record you did not address a single verse Your questions were neither serious or relevant to the scriptures presented which show faith precedes regeneration " For the record"? For the record, I did address the verses as a whole. The record shows that to be the case. Neither I nor anyone else has to address the verses singularly if they have all collectively been abused by ignoring prevailing presuppositional conditions objectively present in the Bible. The record shows this is the case. Not a single verse quoted actually states, " Regeneration precedes faith". The record shows that to be so. Instead, every single verse quoted was asserted inferrentially to mean something that isn't actually anywhere stated. The record shows that to be the case. My questions are serious and relevant, and I explained how and why they are serious and relevant. The record shows that to be so. The questions were not answered. The record shows this to be so. The questions were not answered because of a personal believe they are not serious or relevant in spite of the record showing they are objectively valid and relevant. Nothing stopped you from answering the question but you. The record shows this to be the case. I did not stop this exchange. I brought something valid, relevant, and uncommon to bear upon the op and it is being ignored. That is what the record shows. Just answer the questions asked. |
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