toml
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by toml on Jan 21, 2023 9:31:09 GMT -8
For the record you did not address a single verse Your questions were neither serious or relevant to the scriptures presented which show faith precedes regeneration " For the record"? For the record, I did address the verses as a whole. The record shows that to be the case. Neither I nor anyone else has to address the verses singularly if they have all collectively been abused by ignoring prevailing presuppositional conditions objectively present in the Bible. The record shows this is the case. Not a single verse quoted actually states, " Regeneration precedes faith". The record shows that to be so. Instead, every single verse quoted was asserted inferrentially to mean something that isn't actually anywhere stated. The record shows that to be the case. My questions are serious and relevant, and I explained how and why they are serious and relevant. The record shows that to be so. The questions were not answered. The record shows this to be so. The questions were not answered because of a personal believe they are not serious or relevant in spite of the record showing they are objectively valid and relevant. Nothing stopped you from answering the question but you. The record shows this to be the case. I did not stop this exchange. I brought something valid, relevant, and uncommon to bear upon the op and it is being ignored. That is what the record shows. Just answer the questions asked. No Josheb you did not address the verses. You did not address the fact non convenant peoples were converted and saved. That here were peoples involved who did not know the God of the bible. There were covenant people who had not know Christ. The bible clearly shows it is faith in Christ which is decisive in beinging life. John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. You did not address the definition of regeneration as an act of God which brings life John writes that people might believe on Christ and that believing they might have life in name Those who do not believe on Christ do not have life it is irrelevant wether they were covenant peoples or not Without faith in Christ one has no life, with faith in Christ one receives life Faith here is the instrumental cause of life and thus faith precedes regeneration. |
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Post by civic on Jan 21, 2023 9:39:50 GMT -8
Yes their doctrines have no leg to stand on brother. It goes against the clear teaching in both testaments. Holding to that position creates nothing but contradictions with the majority of scripture but also confusion. That is true. Calvinism is based on certain sellected texts without regard for the whole council of scripture Agreed we see that on a daily basis at the other place since I can still lurk and read what goes on there. |
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Post by duncan on May 6, 2023 6:15:01 GMT -8
Regeneration follows faith, it does not precede faith.
Why would anyone think differently?
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 4:27:43 GMT -8
The order becomes relevant when the doctrine becomes that people get saved before they know anything about Jesus and without any kind of repentence for sins. That is the Calvinist position he is speaking against. Getting saved is a process, not something that happens instantaneously. This particular op is specifically about the question of regeneration, and whether or not regeneration precedes or follows faith. All of the mainstream soteriologies understand this. They all understand and abide by the premise conversion, or regeneration, takes a moment but salvation entails much more than merely being regenerated. Being converted takes a moment but being saved takes a lifetime. Our salvation concludes with our resurrection whereby we are raised incorruptible and immortal. Until that moment, we remain corruptible, and mortal and we require a huge ginormous pile of stuff besides regeneration including but not limited to justification, sanctification, maturation, etc. Yes, there are plenty of examples, like the thief on the cross, who made it into paradise without a lot of time in Christ and lacking deeper theological understanding, but those are the exceptions to the rule, not the rule. In these regards Calvinism (and the other monergistic points of view) are no different than any of the synergistic points of view. In point of fact the above is so well embraced by synergism that it is believed a person can lose his salvation by force of his own will and deliberate action. That person is not saved until he dies and is raised. This op is specifically about the regeneration and its place in the order of salvation. This op takes verses written to people who had already been saved (either in a manner foreshadowing Christ or actually in Christ) and applies those verses to the unregenerate arguing what amounts to a humanistically psychological rendering of salvation whereby a sinner's sinful cognitive faculties are asserted to be salvifically efficacious. At least one poster went so far as to predicate God, God's action, and God's purpose and plan of/for salvation on the sinner! One of the verses cited occurs undeniably within a context of covenant that preceded knowledge or choice that can also demonstrably show no choices for obedience were offered until after their establishment in the saving covenant. On other verse explicitly states they were in Christ when the heard the gospel, not afterwards. And I did not reference Calvin once to make the case for my dissent. I have used scripture, scripture plainly read, and scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I am monergist, but my posts are not Calvinist; they are scriptural. And I'll reiterate an earlier observation in light of makesends comment. Sequence and causality should NOT be assumed where they are not stated. Correlation is not causation. God can and does many things at the same time when He saves, and we should not think otherwise. Most folks understand this. For example, knowledge alone does not cause salvation. Neither does belief. Just because one of the New Testament writers listed a string of events or conditions does not mean that is the order in which they occur. Only when the writer states there is a sequence or a causality should we agree. Josheb, Id be interested in hearing more on this. |
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Post by civic on May 7, 2023 4:48:25 GMT -8
" For the record"? For the record, I did address the verses as a whole. The record shows that to be the case. Neither I nor anyone else has to address the verses singularly if they have all collectively been abused by ignoring prevailing presuppositional conditions objectively present in the Bible. The record shows this is the case. Not a single verse quoted actually states, " Regeneration precedes faith". The record shows that to be so. Instead, every single verse quoted was asserted inferrentially to mean something that isn't actually anywhere stated. The record shows that to be the case. My questions are serious and relevant, and I explained how and why they are serious and relevant. The record shows that to be so. The questions were not answered. The record shows this to be so. The questions were not answered because of a personal believe they are not serious or relevant in spite of the record showing they are objectively valid and relevant. Nothing stopped you from answering the question but you. The record shows this to be the case. I did not stop this exchange. I brought something valid, relevant, and uncommon to bear upon the op and it is being ignored. That is what the record shows. Just answer the questions asked. No Josheb you did not address the verses. You did not address the fact non convenant peoples were converted and saved. That here were peoples involved who did not know the God of the bible. There were covenant people who had not know Christ. The bible clearly shows it is faith in Christ which is decisive in beinging life. John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. You did not address the definition of regeneration as an act of God which brings life John writes that people might believe on Christ and that believing they might have life in name Those who do not believe on Christ do not have life it is irrelevant wether they were covenant peoples or not Without faith in Christ one has no life, with faith in Christ one receives life Faith here is the instrumental cause of life and thus faith precedes regeneration. Ditto tom |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 8:03:26 GMT -8
No Josheb you did not address the verses. You did not address the fact non convenant peoples were converted and saved. That here were peoples involved who did not know the God of the bible. There were covenant people who had not know Christ. The bible clearly shows it is faith in Christ which is decisive in beinging life. John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. You did not address the definition of regeneration as an act of God which brings life John writes that people might believe on Christ and that believing they might have life in name Those who do not believe on Christ do not have life it is irrelevant wether they were covenant peoples or not Without faith in Christ one has no life, with faith in Christ one receives life Faith here is the instrumental cause of life and thus faith precedes regeneration. Ditto tom Well, I hope Joseb replies. Should be a good discussion. |
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Post by makesends on May 14, 2023 16:27:18 GMT -8
Well, I hope Joseb replies. Should be a good discussion. As far as I know, Josheb has not posted on this site in a long time. I will try to answer your comment, that you don't know why anyone would think differently, and your question to Josheb, that you would be interested in hearing more on the matter, that regeneration precedes faith. It is a rather simple logic, that those who are at enmity with God —that is, the mind of the flesh— who are not willing and not able to obey God's law, and unable to please God, per Romans 8, and still helpless, per Romans 5, need to be born again before they can even choose God. Saving faith is not generated by decision of the person, but by the Spirit of God who has taken up residence within that person. Another way to say the same thing: The spiritually dead cannot to a spiritually alive thing. They have to be made alive first. Regeneration. |
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Post by duncan on May 15, 2023 13:30:03 GMT -8
Well, I hope Joseb replies. Should be a good discussion. As far as I know, Josheb has not posted on this site in a long time. I will try to answer your comment, that you don't know why anyone would think differently, and your question to Josheb, that you would be interested in hearing more on the matter, that regeneration precedes faith. It is a rather simple logic, that those who are at enmity with God —that is, the mind of the flesh— who are not willing and not able to obey God's law, and unable to please God, per Romans 8, and still helpless, per Romans 5, need to be born again before they can even choose God. Saving faith is not generated by decision of the person, but by the Spirit of God who has taken up residence within that person. Another way to say the same thing: The spiritually dead cannot to a spiritually alive thing. They have to be made alive first. Regeneration. So, you would say before anyone can believe they must be born again? Or, regenerated? |
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Post by makesends on May 16, 2023 6:47:36 GMT -8
As far as I know, Josheb has not posted on this site in a long time. I will try to answer your comment, that you don't know why anyone would think differently, and your question to Josheb, that you would be interested in hearing more on the matter, that regeneration precedes faith. It is a rather simple logic, that those who are at enmity with God —that is, the mind of the flesh— who are not willing and not able to obey God's law, and unable to please God, per Romans 8, and still helpless, per Romans 5, need to be born again before they can even choose God. Saving faith is not generated by decision of the person, but by the Spirit of God who has taken up residence within that person. Another way to say the same thing: The spiritually dead cannot to a spiritually alive thing. They have to be made alive first. Regeneration. So, you would say before anyone can believe they must be born again? Or, regenerated? My first reaction to the question is that they usually come pretty much simultaneously. But as to causal sequence, the introduction of the changed heart into salvation occurs as a result of the Spirit's work. Logically, the person has to be changed before producing any of the virtues related to or concurrent with salvation —faith, repentance, obedience, desire for holiness, desire for Christ, etc.— he is unable to otherwise do them. It doesn't make sense to say that the dead can do an alive thing, such as even to believe salvifically. One could even say that when the Spirit of God moves in, it IS to be born again. And no, this doesn't mean that the Spirit can't do things within the lost —of course he can! He can do as he will. But when he takes up residence, it is permanent. Among other things, it is an adoption that cannot be undone. But I don't want to imply that faith is generated by the changed will of the person. Rather, that salvific faith is generated directly by the Spirit of God. This living water is part and parcel with the regeneration, and can occur simultaneously with it, from a temporal point of view. The heart of repentance can too, but, rather obviously the actual act of repentance follows faith, from a temporal point of view. To me it is obvious that if a person is dead, he cannot reach out in faith for help. And the lost are dead, according to Ephesians 2. |
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Post by Unmerited on May 16, 2023 7:17:18 GMT -8
So, you would say before anyone can believe they must be born again? Or, regenerated? My first reaction to the question is that they usually come pretty much simultaneously. But as to causal sequence, the introduction of the changed heart into salvation occurs as a result of the Spirit's work. Logically, the person has to be changed before producing any of the virtues related to or concurrent with salvation —faith, repentance, obedience, desire for holiness, desire for Christ, etc.— he is unable to otherwise do them. It doesn't make sense to say that the dead can do an alive thing, such as even to believe salvifically. One could even say that when the Spirit of God moves in, it IS to be born again. And no, this doesn't mean that the Spirit can't do things within the lost —of course he can! He can do as he will. But when he takes up residence, it is permanent. Among other things, it is an adoption that cannot be undone. But I don't want to imply that faith is generated by the changed will of the person. Rather, that salvific faith is generated directly by the Spirit of God. This living water is part and parcel with the regeneration, and can occur simultaneously with it, from a temporal point of view. The heart of repentance can too, but, rather obviously the actual act of repentance follows faith, from a temporal point of view. To me it is obvious that if a person is dead, he cannot reach out in faith for help. And the lost are dead, according to Ephesians 2. Yes I agree, the Holy Spirit has to do something. Like lead us into the truth and enable us to hear the gospel. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. Revelation 3:20 That's how it worked for me. After running with the devil for 20 years I didn't wake up one day and decide to come to Jesus on my own. What happened was some Jesus Freaks were sharing the gospel on Hollywood Boulevard and managed to buttonhole my friend. I knew he wasn't going to buy into it because he absolutely did not believe in God. As they were witnessing to him I started thinking the way I've been living my life the last 20 years absolutely did not work. There had to be a better way. There was and I opened that door and I'm internally grateful. That old man is dead and I'm a new creation. |
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