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Post by Theophilus on Feb 6, 2023 6:26:00 GMT -8
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God preordained them to disobey Him then it would mean God was duplicitous, and that He Himself broke His own command. You can argue the different wills of God but the end result would still be the same , and if God preordained them to disobey His own command it would mean God is dishonest, and He is NOT. I think when we look at God's nature of LOVE that should answer all questions. LOVE is the plum line which tell you where you are and where you should be going with something. Calvinists don't allow God's nature of love to be that. For God to ordain and actually want spiritual death, which is what the eating of the wrong fruit would produce then LOVE has turned into HATE and the God of PEACE would no longer be that very thing. It would mean by ordaining sin he would by nature be taking delight in the pain and suffering of his creatures. Such is not the God we serve. The fact that Christ died for all is stated clearly in the First Epistle of John: “and he [Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2; see also 4:14; Heb 2:9). Notice: he did not die for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. Here it is very difficult for Calvinists to argue that “the world” means “the elect, composed of all kinds of people from all over the world” because the “world” is distinguished from the Christ-believing audience of the letter. Here “the world” means “all those who are not currently a part of the Christian community.” For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them. (2 Cor 5:14–15) |
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Post by civic on Feb 6, 2023 6:42:17 GMT -8
Yes God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the form of a commandment. They can either obey him and have it all good in the garden. Or disobey him and suffer the consequences. Sadly those consequences are with us till this day unless you are in Christ. God definitely knew what he was doing and he did it for a reason and for his purpose that we are not given privy to. The last line of your above post is truly where it's at. When we get to heaven we'll know the answer. I could be presumptuous in saying this I don't think I am but I do think we know why God set up the test. It was merely to provide the outlet whereby men could truly choose right from wrong, life or death. With no real choice available it would open the door for other spiritual beings to point to God as being self serving and not truly the God of LOVE. We see an example of this in Job 1 where Satan accuses God of being self serving which causes questions to be raised. God because he is LOVE allows all question to be answered so that they can finally be put to rest. That is it in a nutshell. I find it hard to believe how many think Gods love is somehow different from our own love for our children and their wellbeing. Being created in Gods image is to experience and know love since God is a Personal Being Who within His nature is love. That love is eternally on display between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Freedom to choose is by definition love having no coercion or force. I don't obey Jesus because I have to but because I love Him and want to please Him. And when I sin its because I personally chose to sin and not obey Him. I don't know why some people do not understand that we have the freedom and ability to choose to love and serve God or disobey Him and serve self. |
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Post by civic on Feb 6, 2023 6:42:43 GMT -8
I think when we look at God's nature of LOVE that should answer all questions. LOVE is the plum line which tell you where you are and where you should be going with something. Calvinists don't allow God's nature of love to be that. For God to ordain and actually want spiritual death, which is what the eating of the wrong fruit would produce then LOVE has turned into HATE and the God of PEACE would no longer be that very thing. It would mean by ordaining sin he would by nature be taking delight in the pain and suffering of his creatures. Such is not the God we serve. The fact that Christ died for all is stated clearly in the First Epistle of John: “and he [Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2; see also 4:14; Heb 2:9). Notice: he did not die for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. Here it is very difficult for Calvinists to argue that “the world” means “the elect, composed of all kinds of people from all over the world” because the “world” is distinguished from the Christ-believing audience of the letter. Here “the world” means “all those who are not currently a part of the Christian community.” For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them. (2 Cor 5:14–15) Amen ! |
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Post by rockson on Feb 6, 2023 9:35:43 GMT -8
The fact that Christ died for all is stated clearly in the First Epistle of John: “and he [Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2; see also 4:14; Heb 2:9). Notice: he did not die for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. Here it is very difficult for Calvinists to argue that “the world” means “the elect, composed of all kinds of people from all over the world” because the “world” is distinguished from the Christ-believing audience of the letter. Here “the world” means “all those who are not currently a part of the Christian community.” For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them. (2 Cor 5:14–15) It is stunning to me how ones can stretch "the world" to fit the mode they want it to. It's just so contrary to a basic standard way one should look upon words. |
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Post by Theophilus on Feb 6, 2023 10:31:18 GMT -8
The fact that Christ died for all is stated clearly in the First Epistle of John: “and he [Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2; see also 4:14; Heb 2:9). Notice: he did not die for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. Here it is very difficult for Calvinists to argue that “the world” means “the elect, composed of all kinds of people from all over the world” because the “world” is distinguished from the Christ-believing audience of the letter. Here “the world” means “all those who are not currently a part of the Christian community.” For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them. (2 Cor 5:14–15) It is stunning to me how ones can stretch "the world" to fit the mode they want it to. It's just so contrary to a basic standard way one should look upon words. Stunning I tell you. When neo-Calvinists insulate and isolate, they hyper-focus on those doctrines their tradition emphasizes and relegate other aspects to the status of afterthought kept in a brown paper bag in case they're needed. Our Christian faith is meant to be lived and not merely intellectually appropriated And held on to with a “I'm right and you are wrong” attitude. The Bible makes it perfectly clear in Matthew 7:16 “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” And John 13:35 “By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.” Another troubling trend I see in Calvinism is tribalism. This is the kinship tendency within a group to protect insiders while combating outsiders. You can see this day in and day out at the other place. |
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Post by civic on Feb 6, 2023 10:36:33 GMT -8
The fact that Christ died for all is stated clearly in the First Epistle of John: “and he [Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2; see also 4:14; Heb 2:9). Notice: he did not die for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. Here it is very difficult for Calvinists to argue that “the world” means “the elect, composed of all kinds of people from all over the world” because the “world” is distinguished from the Christ-believing audience of the letter. Here “the world” means “all those who are not currently a part of the Christian community.” For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them. (2 Cor 5:14–15) It is stunning to me how ones can stretch "the world" to fit the mode they want it to. It's just so contrary to a basic standard way one should look upon words. Yes it is brother and its a shame to see people twist the meaning of words so they fit into their little systematic box. |
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Post by leatherneck0311 on Feb 6, 2023 11:19:29 GMT -8
It is stunning to me how ones can stretch "the world" to fit the mode they want it to. It's just so contrary to a basic standard way one should look upon words. Stunning I tell you. When neo-Calvinists insulate and isolate, they hyper-focus on those doctrines their tradition emphasizes and relegate other aspects to the status of afterthought kept in a brown paper bag in case they're needed. Our Christian faith is meant to be lived and not merely intellectually appropriated And held on to with a “I'm right and you are wrong” attitude. The Bible makes it perfectly clear in Matthew 7:16 “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” And John 13:35 “By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.” Another troubling trend I see in Calvinism is tribalism. This is the kinship tendency within a group to protect insiders while combating outsiders. You can see this day in and day out at the other place. Nothing seems to mean anything to Calvinist as long as they cover their errors to maintain their illusion of They have to do nothing God does it all for them. I am currently on a 7 day vacation from the other place for repeatedly telling the ilk that I do not follow a dead Roman Catholic theologian named John Calvin. Keep the Son in your eyes. |
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Post by Redeemed on Feb 6, 2023 15:12:11 GMT -8
Yes God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the form of a commandment. They can either obey him and have it all good in the garden. Or disobey him and suffer the consequences. Sadly those consequences are with us till this day unless you are in Christ. God definitely knew what he was doing and he did it for a reason and for his purpose that we are not given privy to. The last line of your above post is truly where it's at. When we get to heaven we'll know the answer. I could be presumptuous in saying this I don't think I am but I do think we know why God set up the test. It was merely to provide the outlet whereby men could truly choose right from wrong, life or death. With no real choice available it would open the door for other spiritual beings to point to God as being self serving and not truly the God of LOVE. We see an example of this in Job 1 where Satan accuses God of being self serving which causes questions to be raised. God because he is LOVE allows all question to be answered so that they can finally be put to rest. I think your right. I actually think about this quite a bit. I'm thinking I'm going to take the time to write my thoughts down on this topic. It has to do with who Lucifer was before he ran a mug in heaven and God creating us out of mud, knowing that he would die on a cross one day to save us. |
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Post by civic on Feb 6, 2023 15:21:57 GMT -8
Stunning I tell you. When neo-Calvinists insulate and isolate, they hyper-focus on those doctrines their tradition emphasizes and relegate other aspects to the status of afterthought kept in a brown paper bag in case they're needed. Our Christian faith is meant to be lived and not merely intellectually appropriated And held on to with a “I'm right and you are wrong” attitude. The Bible makes it perfectly clear in Matthew 7:16 “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” And John 13:35 “By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.” Another troubling trend I see in Calvinism is tribalism. This is the kinship tendency within a group to protect insiders while combating outsiders. You can see this day in and day out at the other place. Nothing seems to mean anything to Calvinist as long as they cover their errors to maintain their illusion of They have to do nothing God does it all for them. I am currently on a 7 day vacation from the other place for repeatedly telling the ilk that I do not follow a dead Roman Catholic theologian named John Calvin. Keep the Son in your eyes. You have a target on your back like lee, myself, rockson, tom, synergy, praiseyeshua, theolpilus, redeemed and several others. |
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 5:34:45 GMT -8
Yes God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the form of a commandment. They can either obey him and have it all good in the garden. Or disobey him and suffer the consequences. Sadly those consequences are with us till this day unless you are in Christ. God definitely knew what he was doing and he did it for a reason and for his purpose that we are not given privy to. I understand that calvinists see it as a commandment. I don't. I think it's a simple warning. Gen 2:16-17 WEB 16 Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Eg, I hand you the keys to a rental car. There's a problem with it. Because it's a really fast sports car, and the roads around here have a speed limit, my employer put a throttle limiter on it, so that you can't get arrested. You can still get a ticket, but faster than 90mph is an automatic arrest. So, you're welcome to drive fast, but don't drive over 90mph. Is that a commandment or a notice of the consequences for driving too fast? 1 Corinthians 13:12. I haven't looked at it from that perspective before but I will give it some serious consideration brother. |
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 5:35:47 GMT -8
Yes God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the form of a commandment. They can either obey him and have it all good in the garden. Or disobey him and suffer the consequences. Sadly those consequences are with us till this day unless you are in Christ. God definitely knew what he was doing and he did it for a reason and for his purpose that we are not given privy to. The last line of your above post is truly where it's at. When we get to heaven we'll know the answer. I could be presumptuous in saying this I don't think I am but I do think we know why God set up the test. It was merely to provide the outlet whereby men could truly choose right from wrong, life or death. With no real choice available it would open the door for other spiritual beings to point to God as being self serving and not truly the God of LOVE. We see an example of this in Job 1 where Satan accuses God of being self serving which causes questions to be raised. God because he is LOVE allows all question to be answered so that they can finally be put to rest. You and I see things very similar ! |
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Post by Overjoyed on Jul 8, 2023 6:11:34 GMT -8
The good news is because God has given us free will we can choose to love him and all that entails. Or we can choose to love the world and all that entails. I'm going with the creator of the universe. He's the one that knows what is good.
! John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 6:33:07 GMT -8
The good news is because God has given us free will we can choose to love him and all that entails. Or we can choose to love the world and all that entails. I'm going with the creator of the universe. He's the one that knows what is good. ! John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Welcome to the forum. And good first post |
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Post by armylngst on Jul 8, 2023 15:11:37 GMT -8
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. This is just another reason why predestination(double predestination and the WCF ) according to Calvinism is not true. It goes against the Good nature and character of God. Just some questions (I am putting answers so you see where I am coming from): What is the default condition of man? Man is hell-bound. Why is this the default condition of man? Man has sinned against His Creator. What affect does God have upon the default condition of man, if He chooses to change the default condition of some men? No effect. The default condition remains. With the answers above, there is no double predestination. There is a single destination for all mankind, which God has chosen to change for some. It is a single predestination choice of God to change someone's destination from hell to heaven. The rest have chosen hell for themselves, by continuing in that path that set them on the road to hell in the first place. Predestination does not go against that character we know as mercy. In fact, one must concede the point that it is a miracle that God chose to adopt ANY of His creation to be His CHILDREN at all. They are just created things. God's playthings. Except that He had planned it to be so much more. It's a miracle God decided to save anyone at all. He could have wiped out all humanity in the flood, and started all over with a group that would never reject Him. He didn't. In more than one place He speaks of the special place in His heart for a group called the elect. The days were shortened (end times) for the sake of the elect. God is not slack concerning His promises, but has extended the time for He does not wish that any of the elect be lost. Jesus came for the sheep of the house of Israel, but even before the gospel went to the Gentiles, Jesus says that there is another flock, not of this fold, that He will gather into His fold. The Gentiles. Long before any were saved, Jesus already speaks of them as being sheep, His sheep. Calvinism is not the gospel. It is a framework for understanding God's salvation of His people. This is why hyper calvinists are wrong when they say we must not be going around spreading the gospel, for fear someone God hasn't chosen were to be saved. That isn't how salvation works. |
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Post by armylngst on Jul 8, 2023 15:16:06 GMT -8
I could be presumptuous in saying this I don't think I am but I do think we know why God set up the test. It was merely to provide the outlet whereby men could truly choose right from wrong, life or death. With no real choice available it would open the door for other spiritual beings to point to God as being self serving and not truly the God of LOVE. We see an example of this in Job 1 where Satan accuses God of being self serving which causes questions to be raised. God because he is LOVE allows all question to be answered so that they can finally be put to rest. That is it in a nutshell. I find it hard to believe how many think Gods love is somehow different from our own love for our children and their wellbeing. Being created in Gods image is to experience and know love since God is a Personal Being Who within His nature is love. That love is eternally on display between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Freedom to choose is by definition love having no coercion or force. I don't obey Jesus because I have to but because I love Him and want to please Him. And when I sin its because I personally chose to sin and not obey Him. I don't know why some people do not understand that we have the freedom and ability to choose to love and serve God or disobey Him and serve self. You did not understand him. John is saying that Christ's sacrifice was not only for the Jews, but for the Gentiles as well. Not just our sins, but the sins of the whole world. All people groups, not just the Jews. He is not speaking universalism. |
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