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Post by leatherneck0311 on Jan 24, 2023 8:21:14 GMT -8
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God preordained them to disobey Him then it would mean God was duplicitous, and that He Himself broke His own command. You can argue the different wills of God but the end result would still be the same , and if God preordained them to disobey His own command it would mean God is dishonest, and He is NOT.
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Post by civic on Jan 24, 2023 8:51:55 GMT -8
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
This is just another reason why predestination(double predestination and the WCF ) according to Calvinism is not true. It goes against the Good nature and character of God.
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Post by Redeemed on Jan 24, 2023 10:37:57 GMT -8
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God preordained them to disobey Him then it would mean God was duplicitous, and that He Himself broke His own command. You can argue the different wills of God but the end result would still be the same , and if God preordained them to disobey His own command it would mean God is dishonest, and He is NOT. Excellent thread! I agree, I don't think He preordained them to be disobedient but He did know that it would happen. And He definitely had a purpose for creating us... That we would Glorify Him. When I think of God creating us from the mud knowing that He would one day lay down His life for us at Calvary I'm always amazed. Since He is omniscient God knew Adam and Eve would sin before He created them. Isaiah quoted a statement from the Lord to show us: “I am God, and there is none like me. I declare from the beginning how it will end and foretell from the start what has not yet happened saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10 Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them? |
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Post by civic on Jan 24, 2023 11:20:02 GMT -8
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God preordained them to disobey Him then it would mean God was duplicitous, and that He Himself broke His own command. You can argue the different wills of God but the end result would still be the same , and if God preordained them to disobey His own command it would mean God is dishonest, and He is NOT. Excellent thread! I agree, I don't think He preordained them to be disobedient but He did know that it would happen. And He definitely had a purpose for creating us... That we would Glorify Him. When I think of God creating us from the mud knowing that He would one day lay down His life for us at Calvary I'm always amazed. Since He is omniscient God knew Adam and Eve would sin before He created them. Isaiah quoted a statement from the Lord to show us: “I am God, and there is none like me. I declare from the beginning how it will end and foretell from the start what has not yet happened saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10 Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?Amen brother |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Jan 25, 2023 13:22:38 GMT -8
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God preordained them to disobey Him then it would mean God was duplicitous, and that He Himself broke His own command. You can argue the different wills of God but the end result would still be the same , and if God preordained them to disobey His own command it would mean God is dishonest, and He is NOT. Excellent thread! I agree, I don't think He preordained them to be disobedient but He did know that it would happen. And He definitely had a purpose for creating us... That we would Glorify Him. When I think of God creating us from the mud knowing that He would one day lay down His life for us at Calvary I'm always amazed. Since He is omniscient God knew Adam and Eve would sin before He created them. Isaiah quoted a statement from the Lord to show us: “I am God, and there is none like me. I declare from the beginning how it will end and foretell from the start what has not yet happened saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10 Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?I hope I don't lose any of you here but I'll just say what I believe to be the truth..... Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope No matter how unlikely or how seemingly impossible....... God "hoped". I've have long contended that for God to make man in His own image and after His own likeness..... it would REQUIRE imparting to man the ability to freely choose. "Hope" ever how sure, can never be absent all semblances of surety. Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. God knows us in Himself and through Jesus Christ. |
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Post by civic on Jan 25, 2023 14:13:27 GMT -8
Excellent thread! I agree, I don't think He preordained them to be disobedient but He did know that it would happen. And He definitely had a purpose for creating us... That we would Glorify Him. When I think of God creating us from the mud knowing that He would one day lay down His life for us at Calvary I'm always amazed. Since He is omniscient God knew Adam and Eve would sin before He created them. Isaiah quoted a statement from the Lord to show us: “I am God, and there is none like me. I declare from the beginning how it will end and foretell from the start what has not yet happened saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10 Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?I hope I don't lose any of you here but I'll just say what I believe to be the truth..... Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope No matter how unlikely or how seemingly impossible....... God "hoped". I've have long contended that for God to make man in His own image and after His own likeness..... it would REQUIRE imparting to man the ability to freely choose. "Hope" ever how sure, can never be absent all semblances of surety. Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. God knows us in Himself and through Jesus Christ. Interesting brother just as I had not contemplated God as humble , an attribute of the Trinity I had not thought of hope with God either until I just read your post . I will have to study and ponder on this . |
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Post by Redeemed on Jan 25, 2023 16:10:04 GMT -8
Excellent thread! I agree, I don't think He preordained them to be disobedient but He did know that it would happen. And He definitely had a purpose for creating us... That we would Glorify Him. When I think of God creating us from the mud knowing that He would one day lay down His life for us at Calvary I'm always amazed. Since He is omniscient God knew Adam and Eve would sin before He created them. Isaiah quoted a statement from the Lord to show us: “I am God, and there is none like me. I declare from the beginning how it will end and foretell from the start what has not yet happened saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10 Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?I hope I don't lose any of you here but I'll just say what I believe to be the truth..... Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope No matter how unlikely or how seemingly impossible....... God "hoped". I've have long contended that for God to make man in His own image and after His own likeness..... it would REQUIRE imparting to man the ability to freely choose. "Hope" ever how sure, can never be absent all semblances of surety. Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. God knows us in Himself and through Jesus Christ. I hope you share more of your insights about our God. He's an awesome God. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:13 The virtues of faith, hope, and love are necessary in this age; but in the age to come, faith will give way to sight (2 Cor. 5:7), and hope will turn into experience (Rom. 8:24). Love alone is eternal, for God is love (1 John 4:8). |
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Post by civic on Jan 25, 2023 16:21:40 GMT -8
I hope I don't lose any of you here but I'll just say what I believe to be the truth..... Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope No matter how unlikely or how seemingly impossible....... God "hoped". I've have long contended that for God to make man in His own image and after His own likeness..... it would REQUIRE imparting to man the ability to freely choose. "Hope" ever how sure, can never be absent all semblances of surety. Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. God knows us in Himself and through Jesus Christ. I hope you share more of your insights about our God. He's an awesome God. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:13 The virtues of faith, hope, and love are necessary in this age; but in the age to come, faith will give way to sight (2 Cor. 5:7), and hope will turn into experience (Rom. 8:24). Love alone is eternal, for God is love (1 John 4:8). Ditto |
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SteveB
New Member
Learning to follow Jesus
Posts: 36
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Post by SteveB on Jan 26, 2023 12:08:37 GMT -8
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God preordained them to disobey Him then it would mean God was duplicitous, and that He Himself broke His own command. You can argue the different wills of God but the end result would still be the same , and if God preordained them to disobey His own command it would mean God is dishonest, and He is NOT. I don't see any reason why we should believe that God ordained them to eat. Granted, this is where the calvinists jump in, and tell me that he had to, because he foreknew what would happen... this leads me to believe that they believe that awareness requires/results in action by God, beyond the scope of what he previously established. I.e., in the day you eat thereof, dying you will die. I think that God gave Adam and Eve the choice. Entirely and freely. I don't see where God's Awareness (foreknowledge) requires him to act in a certain way. He will always act in a manner that brings glory to himself. He did indeed know what they would do, but there was no coercion of any sort whatsoever. And this is where the calvinists jump in and tell me that I am a molinist. As God gave Adam and Eve the jobs of caretakers of the earth, they needed to choose. I have a problem with the idea that God would be duplicitous in his dealings with his creation. Especially when we read throughout the bible that he is righteous and just in all his actions. This is where the level of complexity is raised to far greater heights than fathomable. |
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Post by Redeemed on Jan 26, 2023 13:02:01 GMT -8
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God preordained them to disobey Him then it would mean God was duplicitous, and that He Himself broke His own command. You can argue the different wills of God but the end result would still be the same , and if God preordained them to disobey His own command it would mean God is dishonest, and He is NOT. I don't see any reason why we should believe that God ordained them to eat. Granted, this is where the calvinists jump in, and tell me that he had to, because he foreknew what would happen... this leads me to believe that they believe that awareness requires/results in action by God, beyond the scope of what he previously established. I.e., in the day you eat thereof, dying you will die. I think that God gave Adam and Eve the choice. Entirely and freely. I don't see where God's Awareness (foreknowledge) requires him to act in a certain way. He will always act in a manner that brings glory to himself. He did indeed know what they would do, but there was no coercion of any sort whatsoever. And this is where the calvinists jump in and tell me that I am a molinist. As God gave Adam and Eve the jobs of caretakers of the earth, they needed to choose. I have a problem with the idea that God would be duplicitous in his dealings with his creation. Especially when we read throughout the bible that he is righteous and just in all his actions. This is where the level of complexity is raised to far greater heights than fathomable.
Yes God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the form of a commandment. They can either obey him and have it all good in the garden. Or disobey him and suffer the consequences. Sadly those consequences are with us till this day unless you are in Christ. God definitely knew what he was doing and he did it for a reason and for his purpose that we are not given privy to. The last line of your above post is truly where it's at. When we get to heaven we'll know the answer. |
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SteveB
New Member
Learning to follow Jesus
Posts: 36
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Post by SteveB on Jan 26, 2023 19:43:55 GMT -8
I don't see any reason why we should believe that God ordained them to eat. Granted, this is where the calvinists jump in, and tell me that he had to, because he foreknew what would happen... this leads me to believe that they believe that awareness requires/results in action by God, beyond the scope of what he previously established. I.e., in the day you eat thereof, dying you will die. I think that God gave Adam and Eve the choice. Entirely and freely. I don't see where God's Awareness (foreknowledge) requires him to act in a certain way. He will always act in a manner that brings glory to himself. He did indeed know what they would do, but there was no coercion of any sort whatsoever. And this is where the calvinists jump in and tell me that I am a molinist. As God gave Adam and Eve the jobs of caretakers of the earth, they needed to choose. I have a problem with the idea that God would be duplicitous in his dealings with his creation. Especially when we read throughout the bible that he is righteous and just in all his actions. This is where the level of complexity is raised to far greater heights than fathomable.
Yes God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the form of a commandment. They can either obey him and have it all good in the garden. Or disobey him and suffer the consequences. Sadly those consequences are with us till this day unless you are in Christ. God definitely knew what he was doing and he did it for a reason and for his purpose that we are not given privy to. I understand that calvinists see it as a commandment. I don't. I think it's a simple warning. Gen 2:16-17 WEB 16 Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Eg, I hand you the keys to a rental car. There's a problem with it. Because it's a really fast sports car, and the roads around here have a speed limit, my employer put a throttle limiter on it, so that you can't get arrested. You can still get a ticket, but faster than 90mph is an automatic arrest. So, you're welcome to drive fast, but don't drive over 90mph. Is that a commandment or a notice of the consequences for driving too fast? 1 Corinthians 13:12. |
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Post by Redeemed on Jan 27, 2023 7:24:25 GMT -8
Yes God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the form of a commandment. They can either obey him and have it all good in the garden. Or disobey him and suffer the consequences. Sadly those consequences are with us till this day unless you are in Christ. God definitely knew what he was doing and he did it for a reason and for his purpose that we are not given privy to. I understand that calvinists see it as a commandment. I don't. I think it's a simple warning. Gen 2:16-17 WEB 16 Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Eg, I hand you the keys to a rental car. There's a problem with it. Because it's a really fast sports car, and the roads around here have a speed limit, my employer put a throttle limiter on it, so that you can't get arrested. You can still get a ticket, but faster than 90mph is an automatic arrest. So, you're welcome to drive fast, but don't drive over 90mph. Is that a commandment or a notice of the consequences for driving too fast? 1 Corinthians 13:12. I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'll study it out. |
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Post by Redeemed on Jan 27, 2023 13:26:36 GMT -8
I understand that calvinists see it as a commandment. I don't. I think it's a simple warning. Gen 2:16-17 WEB 16 Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Eg, I hand you the keys to a rental car. There's a problem with it. Because it's a really fast sports car, and the roads around here have a speed limit, my employer put a throttle limiter on it, so that you can't get arrested. You can still get a ticket, but faster than 90mph is an automatic arrest. So, you're welcome to drive fast, but don't drive over 90mph. Is that a commandment or a notice of the consequences for driving too fast? 1 Corinthians 13:12. I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'll study it out. I did a quick study on this: 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” In the part in verse 17 where it says you shall not eat is called "law language" So I'm thinking as you pointed out it's not necessarily A commandment... But could be considered breaking the law. Which as we all know comes with consequences. |
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Post by rockson on Feb 5, 2023 23:08:27 GMT -8
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God preordained them to disobey Him then it would mean God was duplicitous, and that He Himself broke His own command. You can argue the different wills of God but the end result would still be the same , and if God preordained them to disobey His own command it would mean God is dishonest, and He is NOT. I think when we look at God's nature of LOVE that should answer all questions. LOVE is the plum line which tell you where you are and where you should be going with something. Calvinists don't allow God's nature of love to be that. For God to ordain and actually want spiritual death, which is what the eating of the wrong fruit would produce then LOVE has turned into HATE and the God of PEACE would no longer be that very thing. It would mean by ordaining sin he would by nature be taking delight in the pain and suffering of his creatures. Such is not the God we serve. |
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Post by rockson on Feb 5, 2023 23:23:06 GMT -8
I don't see any reason why we should believe that God ordained them to eat. Granted, this is where the calvinists jump in, and tell me that he had to, because he foreknew what would happen... this leads me to believe that they believe that awareness requires/results in action by God, beyond the scope of what he previously established. I.e., in the day you eat thereof, dying you will die. I think that God gave Adam and Eve the choice. Entirely and freely. I don't see where God's Awareness (foreknowledge) requires him to act in a certain way. He will always act in a manner that brings glory to himself. He did indeed know what they would do, but there was no coercion of any sort whatsoever. And this is where the calvinists jump in and tell me that I am a molinist. As God gave Adam and Eve the jobs of caretakers of the earth, they needed to choose. I have a problem with the idea that God would be duplicitous in his dealings with his creation. Especially when we read throughout the bible that he is righteous and just in all his actions. This is where the level of complexity is raised to far greater heights than fathomable.
Yes God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the form of a commandment. They can either obey him and have it all good in the garden. Or disobey him and suffer the consequences. Sadly those consequences are with us till this day unless you are in Christ. God definitely knew what he was doing and he did it for a reason and for his purpose that we are not given privy to. The last line of your above post is truly where it's at. When we get to heaven we'll know the answer. I could be presumptuous in saying this I don't think I am but I do think we know why God set up the test. It was merely to provide the outlet whereby men could truly choose right from wrong, life or death. With no real choice available it would open the door for other spiritual beings to point to God as being self serving and not truly the God of LOVE. We see an example of this in Job 1 where Satan accuses God of being self serving which causes questions to be raised. God because he is LOVE allows all question to be answered so that they can finally be put to rest. |
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