Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2022 6:47:24 GMT -8
"And if God predestined some for eternal life, then he also predestined the rest for eternal death. (to put it mildly) Where is free will in that equation?" Did God really predestine some for eternal life? Or did He predestinate believers for perfection and glorification? See Romans 8. As to free will being in the equation, the very fact that God expects obedience to the Gospel implies free will, since "they have not all obeyed the Gospel". What does free will look like as a slave for obedience? What does free will look like as a slave of righteousness? Romans 6:16-19 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. Having been freed from sin and death we are made slaves of a different kind. There is only the slavery of sin or the slavery of for obedience of righteousness. Is there a third option of autonomy explicitly reported in scripture? Where? And even if a person were choosing God prior to regeneration that choice would necessarily entail a pile of consequences that necessarily and inescapably ensue. One cannot choose to be saved and not predestined. Either way the term is interpreted the plain, undeniable fact is the destiny was decided beforehand; it was predestined and predestined by God and predestined by God without His asking any sinner whether they wanted it or not. |
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nahum
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Post by nahum on Aug 18, 2022 20:58:14 GMT -8
What does free will look like as a slave for obedience? What does free will look like as a slave of righteousness? The real issue is whether of not sinners must either obey or disobey the Gospel. And obedience to the Gospel is in fact an exercise of free will. |
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Post by redfan on Aug 19, 2022 2:08:38 GMT -8
Apologetics is actually commanded, 1 Peter 3: 15. sanctify the Lord God in our hearts and always be ready to give a defense to every question asked of you for the reason of the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear and having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile you god conduct in Christ may be ashamed the word defense come from the greek word apologian, which ius where we get the engish term apologetic. if you look at what Peter tells us this is. I think we will see alot of what the church calls apologetics is not really giving a defence. alot of what we see as apologetic is on denomination trying to defend themselves from another denomination,. Thats not what it is for.. Yes it is which has to do with the forums name. See here . berean-apologetics.boards.net/thread/59/meaning-forum-title |
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Post by civic on Aug 19, 2022 4:42:56 GMT -8
Welcome to the forum and it’s good to see you here brother ! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2022 6:24:35 GMT -8
What does free will look like as a slave for obedience? What does free will look like as a slave of righteousness? The real issue is whether of not sinners must either obey or disobey the Gospel. It is not the " real issue" of this op. And I won't be collaborating with the digression. I posted the comments I did and asked the questions asked because they were related to the concerns of this op, the " problem" with apologetics and the matters of new believers learning, books beside the Bible as resources, the example(s) of others, and the one particular example of predestination as it applies to the problem of apologetics. My posts should not be read as a defense of one particular view of predestination. This op is posted in the Apologetics board, not the Arminian & Calvinism board. I assume that was intentional. If evensteven wants the discussion to be specifically about predestination then he can clarify that for all to understand. I'll probably take my leave at that point because Arms and Cals don't listen to one another, often don't know their own position, don't stay on topic, and the discussions become rancorous. Count me out of that. The best apologetic is a well-lived life. Those who hold doctrines begetting inconsistencies in real-world application may need to improve their conduct, but they might be working from bad thinking and/or bad doctrine instead. While obedience is important, fleshly obedience is worthless and passion will always exceed obedience because adoration is always a more significant motivator than compliance. When that happens there is no "problem" with apologetics. THE single most important thing Jesus taught was his own impeccable life, the desire of his life was to serve his Father, not mere obedience. John 4:34 Jesus explained, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work. John 5:19So Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does. John 6:38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me. John 14:31That the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, even so I do. And that, in turn, was driven by the Father's love for His Son, the Son who..... Philippians 2:1-7
Therefore, if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant...There is no problem with that apologetic. In-house or out. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 22, 2022 15:37:42 GMT -8
Apologetics....
What it amounts to today?
Few will be correct. The majority will be wrong.
Some will receive correction when a valid point is made.
Others will dig in deeper in the ditch they love to march in.
Why does God allow for such debate to go on? In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be factions among you to show which of you have God’s approval." 1 Corinthians 11:18-19
Now is the time when God allows his believers the freedom to succeed, or fail. Those who fail will be denied the right to reign with Him. And, will be denied certain eternal rewards.
Such freedom must be manifested now so all will see when the time comes that God must determine what He does when His evaluating the saints becomes a reality.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 8:04:26 GMT -8
I don't believe so-called "apologetics" saved anyone, but it can be an avenue of bringing spiritual truth to someone.
Every Christian is saved by a miracle, and miracles don't happen through the intellect.
But as for Christians opposing other Christians in doctrine, let us remember Galatians 2 and Peter and Paul.
Certainly this validates its place, if we can but maintain a good attitude in doing it.
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Post by Eugene on Aug 23, 2022 12:54:17 GMT -8
Just read your "A problem with apologetics". You ended with "On most Christian forums, everyone is selling, but no one is buying. How about if we tried a bit of fair trade? Do you realize that your post, itself, was "selling"? Yes, I admit I am "selling" too. But I'll be the first to "buy", if I see something Biblical, and I often do. Yes, I "sell" and "buy", that is the "fair trade" you referred to, right? Sadly, too many Christians have little or nothing to "sell", because they don't abide in His word. You said that you remember when apologetics first came on the scene. But apologetics first came on the scene when Jesus rose from the dead, and commanded that disciples should be taught all the things that He commanded. Paul said that he was appointed for the defense of the gospel - Philippians 1:16 Jesus said that if we continue is His word, then we are truly His disciples, and we will know the truth, and the truth will make us free - John 8:31-32 By God's grace, we should all be "selling" the truth. Do we know all the truth? No, and I agree with you, that we should never make up answers, just to give the impression that we know everything about Christianity and the Bible. We know Jesus is the truth, but none of us knows all the truth about following Him, but we should all desire to know more, not to feed our ego, but to feed our spirit. God appointed teachers in the body of Christ. If we don't acknowledge them, or listen to them, then we will suffer loss, and not mature. The woman you mentioned who was busy "memorizing all the right answers" - good for her! Sure, maybe she was just trying to feed her ego, but maybe, since she was a new believer, she was hungry for the truth!! New believers are like newborns, Peter said, and they long for the milk of the word!! When they get "older", they want meat!! Part of the truth is to learn what is right and what is wrong - what is good and what is evil. When I was saved at 21, I was longing for and fascinated with Bible truth, and even sought knowledge of what was error. I had no thought of teaching others - just wanted to fill my soul with truth. We don't need woke, we need truth. John said that he was glad "to find some of your children walking in truth". I too would rejoice if all 5 of my children were walking in the truth. But we can't walk in truth, if we don't read and know the truth, and are willing to be taught the truth. Friendship evangelism can be good, unless we leave out the evangelism side. Then it's just friendship without evangelism. I can't think of one Bible example of it, however. Sure, Jesus was called the friend of sinners, simply because He was willing to get close to them and eat with them on a few occasions. But we don't have any description of a long term relationship that He had with a sinner or sinners, who, after a long friendship, got saved. Probably the longest friendship that He had with a non-believer was with Judas, and that didn't end well. I can see the benefit of believers reading "Know What You Believe". Too many "Christians" know very little about what the Bible teaches.
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Post by Admin on Aug 23, 2022 13:11:57 GMT -8
Good post Eugene! And it's good to see you here. Please feel free to join us by becoming a member we would love to hear more from you. And we want to see all 5 of your Children walking in the truth also. One of my Main goals in life is to know more of what the Bible teaches. Maybe you could help us all in that area.
Have a blessed day.
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Post by dwight92070 on Aug 23, 2022 18:13:54 GMT -8
Full disclosure, this is Dwight92070. I am Eugene. I messed up and replied as a guest without logging on. Then when it came time to send the message, it said that that name was already used. So instead of rewriting everything, I just used my middle name. I think I know how to do it for the next post, however. Thanks for the welcome though.
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Post by alexander on Aug 23, 2022 22:27:27 GMT -8
I have recently recognized a problem with apologetics. Wondering if anyone else is concerned about this. I know, I know... this is a pro-apologetics board. But let's discuss what apologetics are good for and what they are bad for. I joined a small group recently at our new church. Good group of people I love them. I'm especially captivated by the remarks I hear from a Christian woman who is new to the faith. I knew the couple before we joined the group. Fine folks really. She seemed to be very concerned about learning apologetics. The goal seemed to be to have an answer to every question. So she busied herself with memorizing all the "right" answers. This is something that has irritated me for some time. Evangelical apologists feel the need to answer EVERY question. If they don't know the answer they feel compelled to make something up. It's never okay to say that you don't know. As if there are no mysteries. Back to what happened in the small group discussion. She asked a question about Predestination. The group facilitator provided the canned answer. I couldn't keep my mouth shut on this one. So I addressed the whole whole group about predestination. Because I didn't want to pick on the new Christian. Most Christians don't take a critical look at apologetics. There is no single answer about predestination. It is a mystery. And if God predestined some for eternal life, then he also predestined the rest for eternal death. (to put it mildly) Where is free will in that equation? I remember when apologetics first came on the scene. Debates were forming between Christians and agnostics/atheists. We needed to win the debate so we could argue people into the kingdom. Seriously? When I saw a book titled: Know What You Believe, I knew we were off. New Christians need to read a book, or take a class, to find out what they believe. What's wrong with this picture? At some point we realized that this wasn't working. Enter Friendship Evangelism. This changed a Christian prospect into something other than a project. A step in the right direction. Sorry if I'm rambling on here. The point is... Let's take a step back and evaluate what apologetics are good for and what they are bad for. It seems that most Christians use apologetics to argue with other Christians that don't share the same opinions, claiming the other is not following the Bible. Is there really any value in that? On most Christian forums, everyone is selling, but no one is buying. How about if we tried a bit of fair trade? Just to be clear, I looked up the definition of an apologetic and it means to develope a proof or justifcation or defense of a doctrine that you hold. I would agree if this is done purely to prove you are right, it could be misguided, but if it is done to show Biblically where an idea comes from in Scripture, then it is a valuable skill. We need to know where our doctrines come from, or we should not hold to them just because someone said they are the truth. That said, at the front end of our Christianity, before we start learning the Bible for ourselves, we have to trust our teachers, but as we mature in the Word, everything that we cannot support with scripture, should be abandoned |
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TedT
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Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Nov 16, 2022 11:21:22 GMT -8
There is no single answer about predestination. It is a mystery.
And if God predestined some for eternal life,
then he also predestined the rest for eternal death. (to put it mildly)
Where is free will in that equation? There is no proper apologetic answer to the problems with predestination because all theories of predestination are based upon error,  . Predestination is NOT causal, it is predictive only. By predicting the results of our free will choices, we have come to believe HE causes those results...what a mess! Because I have accepted our pre-conception existence (PCE theology) before the foundation of the world as the truth of our creation as per Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? I reject all the theologies and apologies based upon our being created on earth. Thus we are conceived as sinners not due to Adam but due to our own pre-conception choice to be evil in rebellion to GOD, a free will choice we made before we were sown into our bodies as per Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. When GOD told to everyone HE had created about HIS divinity and HIS gospel of salvation as found in faith (an unproven hope) in the Son, Colossians 1:23, HE promised to save anyone who put their faith in the Son from any future sinfulness while HE warned that if anyone rejected the Son, they would be outside of HIS willingness to save them and would end in hell. Those who chose by their free will to believe HIM and who put their faith in the Son were chosen, elected, to be saved from any and all future sin, predestined to salvation in heaven as HIS Bride. This election, also called predestination, did not cause their salvation but merely predicted that our choice to believe our salvation was in the Son would end us in the heavenly marriage. - We chose our fates by our free will. - GOD did not cause our fate by predetermining our fate nor by predestining it. - HE gave us predetermined LIVES, not our FATES, only as the best way to bring us to redemption and sanctification once we chose to rebel against HIM in sin. - HE predicted how our lives would end according to our free will choices and told us we were predestined to fulfill that self chosen fate when HE fulfilled HIS promise of election in us in response to our free will choice to put our faith in HIM. In my Christian opinion... |
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TedT
Junior Member
...gruntled.
Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Nov 16, 2022 11:47:29 GMT -8
That said, at the front end of our Christianity, before we start learning the Bible for ourselves, we have to trust our teachers, but as we mature in the Word, everything that we cannot support with scripture, should be abandoned Please consider: The problem is, as the story of Christ's temptation in Matt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. teaches us, Satan and all his minions (demonic angels) have their own evil interpretations of the scriptures which seduce many as plausible or even as expressing their deepest trust in GOD. Iow, since Satan also uses scripture to support his lies, your homily does not prevent blasphemy. Churchists say we are safe in Church tradition! Intellectuals suggest prayerful and lengthy study to understand the words of Scripture the best to apply them. Spiritists say trust only in the Spirit as per Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding of what you think it might mean by study of the words... |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 16, 2022 16:32:18 GMT -8
"And if God predestined some for eternal life, then he also predestined the rest for eternal death. (to put it mildly) Where is free will in that equation?" Did God really predestine some for eternal life? Or did He predestinate believers for perfection and glorification? See Romans 8. As to free will being in the equation, the very fact that God expects obedience to the Gospel implies free will, since "they have not all obeyed the Gospel". What does free will look like as a slave for obedience? What does free will look like as a slave of righteousness? Romans 6:16-19 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. Having been freed from sin and death we are made slaves of a different kind. There is only the slavery of sin or the slavery of for obedience of righteousness. Is there a third option of autonomy explicitly reported in scripture? Where? And even if a person were choosing God prior to regeneration that choice would necessarily entail a pile of consequences that necessarily and inescapably ensue. One cannot choose to be saved and not predestined. Either way the term is interpreted the plain, undeniable fact is the destiny was decided beforehand; it was predestined and predestined by God and predestined by God without His asking any sinner whether they wanted it or not. I tend to have a diffficult time with Paul's no one to ever be gospel. |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 16, 2022 16:56:47 GMT -8
Apologetics....
What it amounts to today?
Few will be correct. The majority will be wrong.
Some will receive correction when a valid point is made.
Others will dig in deeper in the ditch they love to march in.
Why does God allow for such debate to go on? In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be factions among you to show which of you have God’s approval." 1 Corinthians 11:18-19Now is the time when God allows his believers the freedom to succeed, or fail. Those who fail will be denied the right to reign with Him. And, will be denied certain eternal rewards.
Such freedom must be manifested now so all will see when the time comes that God must determine what He does when His evaluating the saints becomes a reality. Not sure about that. You put freedom in there. And then casted it down after doing such. |
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. Predestination is NOT causal, it is predictive only. By predicting the results of our free will choices, we have come to believe HE causes those results...what a mess!