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Post by evensteven on Aug 13, 2022 16:01:28 GMT -8
I have recently recognized a problem with apologetics.
Wondering if anyone else is concerned about this.
I know, I know... this is a pro-apologetics board.
But let's discuss what apologetics are good for and what they are bad for.
I joined a small group recently at our new church. Good group of people I love them.
I'm especially captivated by the remarks I hear from a Christian woman who is new to the faith.
I knew the couple before we joined the group. Fine folks really.
She seemed to be very concerned about learning apologetics.
The goal seemed to be to have an answer to every question.
So she busied herself with memorizing all the "right" answers.
This is something that has irritated me for some time.
Evangelical apologists feel the need to answer EVERY question.
If they don't know the answer they feel compelled to make something up.
It's never okay to say that you don't know. As if there are no mysteries.
Back to what happened in the small group discussion.
She asked a question about Predestination.
The group facilitator provided the canned answer.
I couldn't keep my mouth shut on this one.
So I addressed the whole whole group about predestination.
Because I didn't want to pick on the new Christian.
Most Christians don't take a critical look at apologetics.
There is no single answer about predestination. It is a mystery.
And if God predestined some for eternal life,
then he also predestined the rest for eternal death. (to put it mildly)
Where is free will in that equation?
I remember when apologetics first came on the scene.
Debates were forming between Christians and agnostics/atheists.
We needed to win the debate so we could argue people into the kingdom.
Seriously?
When I saw a book titled: Know What You Believe, I knew we were off.
New Christians need to read a book, or take a class, to find out what they believe.
What's wrong with this picture?
At some point we realized that this wasn't working.
Enter Friendship Evangelism. This changed a Christian prospect
into something other than a project. A step in the right direction.
Sorry if I'm rambling on here. The point is...
Let's take a step back and evaluate what apologetics
are good for and what they are bad for.
It seems that most Christians use apologetics to argue with
other Christians that don't share the same opinions,
claiming the other is not following the Bible.
Is there really any value in that?
On most Christian forums, everyone is selling, but no one is buying.
How about if we tried a bit of fair trade?
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Post by civic on Aug 13, 2022 16:13:32 GMT -8
I have recently recognized a problem with apologetics.
Wondering if anyone else is concerned about this.
I know, I know... this is a pro-apologetics board.
But let's discuss what apologetics are good for and what they are bad for.
I joined a small group recently at our new church. Good group of people I love them.
I'm especially captivated by the remarks I hear from a Christian woman who is new to the faith.
I knew the couple before we joined the group. Fine folks really.
She seemed to be very concerned about learning apologetics.
The goal seemed to be to have an answer to every question.
So she busied herself with memorizing all the "right" answers.
This is something that has irritated me for some time.
Evangelical apologists feel the need to answer EVERY question.
If they don't know the answer they feel compelled to make something up.
It's never okay to say that you don't know. As if there are no mysteries.
Back to what happened in the small group discussion.
She asked a question about Predestination.
The group facilitator provided the canned answer.
I couldn't keep my mouth shut on this one.
So I addressed the whole whole group about predestination.
Because I didn't want to pick on the new Christian.
Most Christians don't take a critical look at apologetics.
There is no single answer about predestination. It is a mystery.
And if God predestined some for eternal life,
then he also predestined the rest for eternal death. (to put it mildly)
Where is free will in that equation?
I remember when apologetics first came on the scene.
Debates were forming between Christians and agnostics/atheists.
We needed to win the debate so we could argue people into the kingdom.
Seriously?
When I saw a book titled: Know What You Believe, I knew we were off.
New Christians need to read a book, or take a class, to find out what they believe.
What's wrong with this picture?
At some point we realized that this wasn't working.
Enter Friendship Evangelism. This changed a Christian prospect
into something other than a project. A step in the right direction.
Sorry if I'm rambling on here. The point is...
Let's take a step back and evaluate what apologetics
are good for and what they are bad for.
It seems that most Christians use apologetics to argue with
other Christians that don't share the same opinions,
claiming the other is not following the Bible.
Is there really any value in that?
On most Christian forums, everyone is selling, but no one is buying.
How about if we tried a bit of fair trade?
Thanks Steven for the thought provoking post and I'm with you on lifestyle evangelism. Its what Jesus did with the disciples.  Its the old saying people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
And welcome to the forum ! |
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 13, 2022 18:42:35 GMT -8
How would fair trade work? I see apologetics as a basic tool of Bible study.
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Post by evensteven on Aug 14, 2022 2:30:05 GMT -8
How would fair trade work? I see apologetics as a basic tool of Bible study. That's a good question, thanks.
If a person uses apologetics as a Bible study tool, they are approaching the book with a bias.
Basically using the Bible as a "proof-text" source. Confirming the conclusion they brought with them.
Is God speaking to someone who uses that method.
The fair trade idea would look like this...
Listening to someone who has a different religious background than you do.
Rather than going into attack mode with a rebuttal to "put them in their place".
So, the fair trade would be to hear them out rather than blast them.
Who knows, you might actually learn something.
Thanks for asking that question I hadn't taken it beyond the point I was making.
Have a blessed Sunday. (assuming)
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Post by evensteven on Aug 14, 2022 3:49:01 GMT -8
Thanks Steven for the thought provoking post and I'm with you on lifestyle evangelism. Its what Jesus did with the disciples. Its the old saying people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
And welcome to the forum ! Same here, I am also weary of people who seem to have all the answers to life's questions. J. Thanks for the replies. This scripture came to mind. (the whole chapter is great, of course)
Philippians 2:3-4 NIV
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.
Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,
4 not looking to your own interests but each of you
to the interests of the others.
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Post by civic on Aug 14, 2022 3:56:39 GMT -8
Same here, I am also weary of people who seem to have all the answers to life's questions. J. Thanks for the replies. This scripture came to mind. (the whole chapter is great, of course)
Philippians 2:3-4 NIV
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.
Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,
4 not looking to your own interests but each of you
to the interests of the others.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 14, 2022 20:25:25 GMT -8
How would fair trade work? I see apologetics as a basic tool of Bible study. That's a good question, thanks.
If a person uses apologetics as a Bible study tool, they are approaching the book with a bias.
Basically using the Bible as a "proof-text" source. Confirming the conclusion they brought with them.
Is God speaking to someone who uses that method.
The fair trade idea would look like this...
Listening to someone who has a different religious background than you do.
Rather than going into attack mode with a rebuttal to "put them in their place".
So, the fair trade would be to hear them out rather than blast them.
Who knows, you might actually learn something.
Going into "Attack mode" with a "rebuttal" without first understanding the opinion that is to be rebutted isn`t apologetics as the term is defined. Apologetics requires an understanding of opposing arguments in order to be effectively utilized. Listening to and understanding opposing views is a basic requirement. |
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Post by hansen on Aug 14, 2022 20:52:09 GMT -8
One basic, frustrating problem is that, when going strictly by Scripture, many positions are closer to best-guesses than certain knowledge-and often plausible counter or conflicting interpretations will surface that are more or less equally defensible.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 14, 2022 21:21:59 GMT -8
One basic, frustrating problem is that, when going strictly by Scripture, many positions are closer to best-guesses than certain knowledge-and often plausible counter or conflicting interpretations will surface that are more or less equally defensible. I know this is a commonly held opinion at this present time but in due time it will prove to be mistaken. The opinions of Jesus are eternal in nature and will prove to have been the correct ones. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 15, 2022 7:43:34 GMT -8
Apologetics is actually commanded,
1 Peter 3: 15. sanctify the Lord God in our hearts and always be ready to give a defense to every question asked of you for the reason of the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear and having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile you god conduct in Christ may be ashamed
the word defense come from the greek word apologian, which ius where we get the engish term apologetic.
if you look at what Peter tells us this is. I think we will see alot of what the church calls apologetics is not really giving a defence. alot of what we see as apologetic is on denomination trying to defend themselves from another denomination,. Thats not what it is for..
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Post by civic on Aug 15, 2022 7:45:41 GMT -8
Apologetics is actually commanded, 1 Peter 3: 15. sanctify the Lord God in our hearts and always be ready to give a defense to every question asked of you for the reason of the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear and having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile you god conduct in Christ may be ashamed the word defense come from the greek word apologian, which ius where we get the engish term apologetic. if you look at what Peter tells us this is. I think we will see alot of what the church calls apologetics is not really giving a defence. alot of what we see as apologetic is on denomination trying to defend themselves from another denomination,. Thats not what it is for.. Yes it is which has to do with the forums name. See here . berean-apologetics.boards.net/thread/59/meaning-forum-title |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 10:43:56 GMT -8
.................Sorry if I'm rambling on here. The point is... Let's take a step back and evaluate what apologetics are good for and what they are bad for. It seems that most Christians use apologetics to argue with other Christians that don't share the same opinions, claiming the other is not following the Bible. Is there really any value in that? On most Christian forums, everyone is selling, but no one is buying. How about if we tried a bit of fair trade? Thanks Steven for the thought provoking post and I'm with you on lifestyle evangelism. Its what Jesus did with the disciples. Its the old saying people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And welcome to the forum !Rambling is never good apologetics  . THE BEST apologetic is a life well-lived. That life has integrity between thought, word, and deed. It is simultaneously intriguing and informing, and against it there is no argument. When this is inspired and empowered by a vibrant reliance on the Holy Spirit ALL of the finest arguments by Aquinas, Chesterton, Lewis, MacDowell, Schaeffer, Zacharias, Craig, et all all pale because only the Spirit knows the stronghold of the person to whom we speak. No intellectual case, no matter how impeccable, will ever speak to that person's need without the revelation of the Spirit because no one knows the heart and mind of another but God. Thinking we have the answers is the antithesis of the best apologetic. A life well-lived.[/quote] |
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nahum
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by nahum on Aug 17, 2022 10:57:57 GMT -8
"And if God predestined some for eternal life, then he also predestined the rest for eternal death. (to put it mildly) Where is free will in that equation?"
Did God really predestine some for eternal life? Or did He predestinate believers for perfection and glorification? See Romans 8.
As to free will being in the equation, the very fact that God expects obedience to the Gospel implies free will, since "they have not all obeyed the Gospel".
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SteveB
New Member
Learning to follow Jesus
Posts: 36
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Post by SteveB on Aug 17, 2022 15:14:22 GMT -8
I have recently recognized a problem with apologetics.
Wondering if anyone else is concerned about this.
I know, I know... this is a pro-apologetics board.
But let's discuss what apologetics are good for and what they are bad for.
I joined a small group recently at our new church. Good group of people I love them.
I'm especially captivated by the remarks I hear from a Christian woman who is new to the faith.
I knew the couple before we joined the group. Fine folks really.
She seemed to be very concerned about learning apologetics.
The goal seemed to be to have an answer to every question.
So she busied herself with memorizing all the "right" answers.
This is something that has irritated me for some time.
Evangelical apologists feel the need to answer EVERY question.
If they don't know the answer they feel compelled to make something up.
It's never okay to say that you don't know. As if there are no mysteries.
Back to what happened in the small group discussion.
She asked a question about Predestination.
The group facilitator provided the canned answer.
I couldn't keep my mouth shut on this one.
So I addressed the whole whole group about predestination.
Because I didn't want to pick on the new Christian.
Most Christians don't take a critical look at apologetics.
There is no single answer about predestination. It is a mystery.
And if God predestined some for eternal life,
then he also predestined the rest for eternal death. (to put it mildly)
Where is free will in that equation?
I remember when apologetics first came on the scene.
Debates were forming between Christians and agnostics/atheists.
We needed to win the debate so we could argue people into the kingdom.
Seriously?
When I saw a book titled: Know What You Believe, I knew we were off.
New Christians need to read a book, or take a class, to find out what they believe.
What's wrong with this picture?
At some point we realized that this wasn't working.
Enter Friendship Evangelism. This changed a Christian prospect
into something other than a project. A step in the right direction.
Sorry if I'm rambling on here. The point is...
Let's take a step back and evaluate what apologetics
are good for and what they are bad for.
It seems that most Christians use apologetics to argue with
other Christians that don't share the same opinions,
claiming the other is not following the Bible.
Is there really any value in that?
On most Christian forums, everyone is selling, but no one is buying.
How about if we tried a bit of fair trade?
Hi. Since you're in an Apologetics class at your church, I'll assume that you are already familiar with 1 Peter 3:15, and the key phrase there is to be ready to give reason for the hope that lives within you. The word "reason" is apologia. From which the idea of Apologetics arises. On the forum a few of us here come from, there are atheists on there who are utterly convinced that we have to have an answer/argument for every question. It would appear to me that they've actually memorized the base arguments and then will work through trying to debunk each and every single one of them. I've had a number of different people who have argued that I'm supposed to know all the arguments and debates. Dating back to the late 70's, I was introduced to 1 Corinthians 2, vss 1-5. I.e., our hope and faith is not to be based on eloquence or erudition/wisdom of men. But on the power of God. Using this, and Isaiah 55:8-10, our job is to make faith in Jesus clearer, not remove the stumbling blocks of the truth. Jesus talked about certain things that are important, which offended his hearers. Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 1, that the gospel itself is foolish/offensive to those who are perishing. The word used for foolish in the greek is, moria. I've posted a rather lengthy series of posts on the other forum, describing the situation. It of course utterly irritates the atheists and unbelievers there. They typically try to drag those discussions off into the weeds, kicking and screaming, just to silence the truth. I think that some Apologetics are pretty good. But there comes a point where it's imperative to bring them back to the gospel of Jesus and the truth. But an obsession with it is indeed a problem. What's curious to me is the description given to us in 1 Corinthians 1:18-29. It's not the arguments that win. And if you could win an argument, what's to say someone who has far greater eloquence doesn't come along with a wiser argument and convince them to deny Jesus? But if the power of God himself convinces us..... then no counter argument could ever prevail. It's the life of Jesus and God we want people to know. |
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Post by evensteven on Aug 18, 2022 3:01:16 GMT -8
Thanks for your reply SteveB
One thing often overlooked in the scripture you mentioned is the phrase, "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power". Sure, God is powerful, no question. But how do we preach with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power?
1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I also like your point about Apologetics being intended for evangelism.
However, what is it typically used for? Sparing with other Christians that don't share our opinion.
Hairsplitting to prove who is right and who is wrong.
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Its the old saying people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. 
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