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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 6:52:48 GMT -8
Would you show me where you see "He'll finish the work he has begun in us as long as we remain in Him" in this...
Philippians 1:6
King James Version
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
...?
Do you not believe that it is Jesus Christ, not us, that is...
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
...and...
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
...?
If Eternal Redemption was something man could do for himself—why was it necessary for Christ to die and rise again?
Show me in Scripture where we read that salvation is based on Christ's Work added to man's, or man's work added to Christ.
Consistently Scripture credits Salvation to God alone, and Eternal Redemption to God manifest in the flesh. A few examples would be...
Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Eternal Redemption is based on what He did, not what we did or will do.
Remission of sins has been bestowed on all that have been sanctified (set apart) by the Sacrifice of Christ:
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The proof-texts of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) can be seen to be out of context application of what describes unbelievers to believers.
If you would like to go through these, one at a time, I will be happy to show you why faith in Christ can actually be faith in Christ and not faith in Christ and what I/we do.
Philippians 1:6
King James Version
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Again, there is no "if we remain in Him" in this stand-alone testimony of the power of God unto salvation. He is the reason we have faith, He is the One that completes our faith, He is the One that completes what He begins in us, and that is why we can place our faith in Him.
In order for the doctrine of the L.O.S.T. to be accurate, it would have to be He Who has begun this work in us that casts us out.
And what is His promise to us?
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
God bless.
Oh, it shows it all over Scripture. The bible exhorts, encourages, uplifts, and also warns, admonishes, and instructs believers, to: perservere, be vigilant, be holy, love, put to death the deeds of the flesh, invest their "talents", remain faithful, remain in Him, refrain from sin, do good, with eternal life at stake. Some folks prefer only hearing about the carrots and not the sticks, but man has a role to play, a responsibilty and obligation in it all, involving his will. God will always do His part. But He won't force us to accept, or keep accepting, His grace.
So, one at a time, let's take a look at your loss of salvation proof texts.
And again, it is a false argument to say that those who believe in the Eternal Security taught in Scripture think they have license for sin or that they discount our responsibility to live holy before God.
So present your first and best loss of salvation verse or passage, and let's examine it and see why it is referring to unbelievers rather than believers, and that you are misunderstanding it.
God bless.
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 6:53:03 GMT -8
But enough of my commentary, let me tear this down real quick. There are assemblies and people to be avoided; and it’s these types: “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” (Romans 16:17-18) THESE ARE THE ASSEMBLIES I AVOID. Let me rebuild it real quick: you avoid all assemblies.
Clearly in violation of the Word of God.
Secondly, by elevating yourself above all other believers you are guilty of the sin of pride. You are puffed up, my friend, and think more of yourself than ye ought.
That is sin. And the longer you continue trying to convince people that you never sin the more you are going to expose yourself as a liar according to John's teaching.
Tell me this: is there one person in your life that has told you they believe you to be sinless?
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 6:56:40 GMT -8
And I already told you that nearly every assembly out there today falls convicted by this scripture. "Nearly" every assembly?
Does that mean there is an assembly out there that doesn't "fall convicted of this Scripture?"
So how do you excuse yourself from assembling with them?
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 6:58:15 GMT -8
You said: Hey, you did that with Hebrews 10:25… And I showed you BIBLICALLY how you did that. You just opined on how I did it without biblical reference. You haven't shown me anything "biblically" so far.
And you haven't shown how the verse I quoted, which by your own admission was given at face value—was given out of context.
How exactly can you say what the verse says and be giving it out of context?
Is it out of context to say that the Writer states that we are not to forsake the assembling of the brethren?
Is it out of the context of this discussion to say, based on your own admission—that you have forsaken the assembling of the brethren?
How do you justify violating a very simple command by an inspired Writer of Scripture and ultimately the command of God?
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 7:02:59 GMT -8
You said: Only in your ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED mind… (with all due respect). Just a little advice: there are three tabs above that are given for emphasis. You can do it anyway you like, but you will come across a little less emotional if you utilize some of these functions.
Example:
There is no respect in saying only in your mind to someone that has presented Scripture you cannot even address. Once Saved Always Saved is just another way to speak of Eternal Security, which is one of the most basic principles of salvation in Christ.
And it is not only in my mind, but in the Scripture presented to you:
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
So what does it mean?
I have given you the context of the Chapter as I see it, including enlightening you to the fact that "perfection" means "completion," and that the context is a context concerning remission of sins.
So you tell me why it is that the Sacrifice of Christ doesn't make one complete in regards to remission of sins forever. It is contrasted with the sacrifices of the Law, which could not make perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins, hence were continually offered.
Please answer.
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 7:10:37 GMT -8
Yes:
Hebrews 10:25-29
King James Version
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It is a connector to what is stated before it. We see it used this way often:
Mat 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for G1063 that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for G1063 he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 2:20
Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for G1063 they are dead which sought the young child's life.
Do not forsake the assembling of the brethren...for if we sin wilfully...
But when you violate Scripture's teaching it isn't sin, right? Of course not, because you can't sin, you are sinless.
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 7:17:08 GMT -8
This is the reason: “But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.” (Hebrews 10:3-4) That’s sin in general.
No, it's the specific sin of rejecting God's will, and it is a sin committed only by those who actually reject God's will.
Like you.
Because you have admitted that you forsake the assembling of the brethren, and because the Writer (hence God) gives this as a charateristic of those who reject God's will—it is not difficult to assume that you have rejected God's will.
Because you say you have no sin and therefore have no need for the Advocate of the believer before the Father, thereby denying Scripture again, again—it isn't difficult to assume you have rejected God's will.
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
You don't need to follow this command either, because you say you do not sin.
But then, because you have forsaken the assembling of the brethren, and rejected the Advocate with the Father—you don't have anyone to confess your sin to period.
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 7:23:35 GMT -8
But in order to preserve the tradition of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED you must tamper with scripture. No, I can show Eternal Security by taking Scripture at its Word:
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
It is not I that tampers with the statement of Scripture, nor the very Promise of God.
You undermine the Sacrifice of Christ by implying that you, in your sinful fallen flesh—can contribute to the Cross of Christ.
Were you there when He died in your stead? I can tell you, not only were you not there, but not even those who claimed to believe in Him were there:
John 16:29-32
King James Version
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
I just haven't stumbled across the first presentation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that states "Jesus Christ and Michaiah suffered at the hands of wicked men, was put to death, and then rose again on the Third Day."
Perhaps this is because the Gospel of Jesus Christ has an emphasis on the Work of Christ, not the works of a sinful man named Michaiah.
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 7:30:48 GMT -8
You said: My sins have been excused by the blood of Christ.
Only if you have been sanctified by His Sacrifice. Only if Jesus Christ has died in your stead.
And that comes into question when someone states that salvation is dependent on something other than Jesus Christ.
Do ye now believe, Michaiah?
Or do you believe in Michaiah.
Because the sin that you have committed since you were saved, and the sin you are committing now, and the sins you will commit in the future—only have one penalty: death.
Will you die for that sin, or did Christ die for that sin?
Have you received remission of sins in completion as opposed to the sacrifices of not just the Law but in all economies before the Law was established?
Only if your faith is in Christ.
Who are you trusting for your eternal destiny?
Don't say Christ if you think it isn't enough to save you.
And don't say Christ wiped your slate clean and you have since been sinless. Your sin is quite evident to anyone that has more than a fourth-grade reading level.
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 7:37:09 GMT -8
And there is a reason why John wrote: “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin” (1 John 3:9) You should reassess what John meant in the first chapter. In view is the continuous practice of sin. That is made clear by the remainder of his teaching:
1 John 1:8-10
King James Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 2
King James Version
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Is "Forsake not the assembling of the brethren" not a commandment?
Is it not the Spirit of Christ that has always inspired the Writers of Scripture?
John seems to be speaking fairly clear in his teaching. No need to tamper with the above to understand that believers will sin, and they will have need of The Advocate Who is the Propitiation for our sins.
He categorizes the level of maturity among believers as little children, young men, and fathers.
Yet you create a concept of nothing but fathers after salvation.
Why reject God's commandments and teachings?
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 7:44:46 GMT -8
Considering the fact that Peter also wrote: “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Peter 4:1-2) Doesn't change the fact that Christians sin after salvation, and have need to confess their sin, and have need of The Advocate.
Keep reading through the Chapter, and you will see that Peter acknowledges that it is possible for Christians to sin, that is why he exhorts them not:
1 Peter 4:14-18
King James Version
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
As in all of the proof texts for the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers), we see two groups: believers and unbelievers.
The exhortation is not to sin. Why? Because Christians can sin.
Their sin will be judged, but they are still distinguished from those who are saved.
Note that in view, those who practice sin, are they that obey not the Gospel of God.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
So trying to "tear down" Scripture by rejecting Eternal Redemption through Christ by using passages clearly referring to unbelievers, those who do not obey the Gospel—is sin.
It is a rejection of Jesus Christ Himself, because it is saying that HIs sacrifice, His death in your stead is not enough.
Doesn't mean I deny the possibility you may be saved, it just means you haven't got the first clue as to what the Gospel of Jesus Christ means, and that you have been carried away with diverse doctrines of error.
Loss of salvation is a false doctrine that simply cannot be justified with Scripture nor can it address the stand-alone statements that make it clear that when one is baptized into Christ they enter into eternal union with the God Who said "I will never leave nor forsake thee."
The god you preach does indeed leave and forsake those who aren't able to save themselves.
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 8:00:45 GMT -8
Furthermore the Galatians were being admonished by Paul for doing theses things: “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” (Galatians 4:10-11) Paul rebuked the Apostles for trying to make two distinct groups among believers, those who followed the Law, and those that did not. Have you ever read Galatians? It doesn't seem so. Not when you try to render this great exposition of the error of legalism into this limited list of your own making. Galatians 2:9-14
King James Version
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?Since you have a problem with someone presenting the Greek, lol, I will just let you know that dissimulation is hypocrisy. That is the sin in view in this particular passage. So how is it that the very Apostles of Christ can sin but you can't? Or is hypocrisy not a sin? Continued... |
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 8:06:04 GMT -8
“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2) And this contradicts the Scripture and point I made?
Galatians 3
King James Version
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Those who think they are made perfect by the flesh are foolish.
I didn't say it—Paul said it.
Those who forget that they received the Spirit of God—the eternal indwelling of God Himself—by the hearing of faith are foolish.
I didn't say it, Paul said it.
Those who think these things have been bewitched.
I didn't say it, Paul said it, and ultimately, that is God speaking my friend.
So don't be foolish, trust in Christ.
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 29, 2022 8:14:34 GMT -8
Paul wasn’t discouraging the Galatians from living holy lives in purity. I agree. Neither does anyone that understands the Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's a false argument contrived by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) in an attempt to make their religion sound like it is compatible with the Gospel. Here's another passage I think it likely you have never read before: Acts 15:23-29
King James Version
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
The hypocrisy of the Apostles was certainly sin, because they all, Paul included, knew that no man, not even from among the Jews—could keep the Law. In other words, Michaiah, even the Apostles sinned and had need to confess their sins and were in need of The Advocate. For you to show up two centuries later proclaiming you are sinless is not something new under the sun. It's the same error men fell into in the first century, and unfortunately you have not exercised your senses that you might be able to discern good from evil. And what is equally apparent is that you are not exercising faith in the Risen Savior, Who died in your stead before you were even born, because He knew you could not live a sinless life that would justify you in an eternal context. That is why His Work is called Eternal Redemption. He redeems and forgives on an eternal basis, because only He is able to make that call. So the only thing I can suggest for you is to find a fellowship somewhere and start learning that you don't have to face life alone. There is a need for Christian fellowship and, warts and all, some of us actually care about your eternal destiny as well as your daily conversation. God bless.
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Post by michaiah on Aug 29, 2022 14:49:15 GMT -8
P1LGR1MI see you’ve had A LOT of time on your hands lately. There were no holy assemblies in Noah’s day. And there aren’t any today. The corrupt Bible Colleges have infected just about everyone in one way or another. These are the last days. It’s so bad that Christians like yourself have resigned to the unbiblical teaching that you will never cease from sin even in the face of scripture that says otherwise: “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Peter 4:1-2) But you continue to live your time in the flesh to the lusts of men, not the will of God.
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