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Post by Admin on Aug 29, 2022 15:56:38 GMT -8
Our mission statement is as fellows:
Members of Berean Apologetic forum are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration.
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Post by hansen on Aug 29, 2022 18:18:03 GMT -8
Oh, it shows it all over Scripture. The bible exhorts, encourages, uplifts, and also warns, admonishes, and instructs believers, to: perservere, be vigilant, be holy, love, put to death the deeds of the flesh, invest their "talents", remain faithful, remain in Him, refrain from sin, do good, with eternal life at stake. Some folks prefer only hearing about the carrots and not the sticks, but man has a role to play, a responsibilty and obligation in it all, involving his will. God will always do His part. But He won't force us to accept, or keep accepting, His grace.
So, one at a time, let's take a look at your loss of salvation proof texts.
And again, it is a false argument to say that those who believe in the Eternal Security taught in Scripture think they have license for sin or that they discount our responsibility to live holy before God.
So present your first and best loss of salvation verse or passage, and let's examine it and see why it is referring to unbelievers rather than believers, and that you are misunderstanding it.
God bless.
Ok?? And how responsible are we to live holy? Can we? Or are all our works filthy rags? And are we responsible such that, if we don't live holy lives, we may not gain eternal life? Those who believe that righteousness is merely imputed to or declared of man more easily fall into the OSAS fallacy because, if righteousness is no longer connected to...well, actual, personal righteousness, then there's no righteousness to compromise and lose by sinning-and no righteousness with which to overcome sin anyway. Again, the new covenant is not about the fact that man cannot possibly be righteous, rather it's about the fact that man cannot possibly be righteous apart from God. Man was never created to be a sinner. Adam caused the separation between God and humanity that guarantees sinfulness in man. Jesus reconciles us with God again. “If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17 “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7 “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13 “…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23 "And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4 “Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13 “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14 “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24 "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:16-21 “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15 “If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22 "If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Heb 6:4-6 “You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10 Lots of contingency there. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 29, 2022 20:51:12 GMT -8
Lots of contingency there.
......yet not a single word about “Grace”——- the only thing that ever Saved any man who ever “got” Saved....... how strange...
“It is by GRACE that you are Saved” Seems pretty straight- forward to me....Grace Saves.....Adding to Grace with Works and you cancel the Grace That should have Saved you....I would think very hard before doing that...
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Post by hansen on Aug 29, 2022 21:11:23 GMT -8
Lots of contingency there. ......yet not a single word about “Grace”——- the only thing that ever Saved any man who ever “got” Saved....... how strange... “It is by GRACE that you are Saved” Seems pretty straight- forward to me....Grace Saves.....Adding to Grace with Works and you cancel the Grace That should have Saved you....I would think very hard before doing that... I would think very hard about what Scripture says, since those are God’s words not mine, and about the purpose of grace, how it operates in a believer’s life. |
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 30, 2022 5:06:44 GMT -8
P1LGR1M I see you’ve had A LOT of time on your hands lately. For the last couple days, actually: I have tested positive for Covid, and I think the Lord allowed this that I might have the time available to speak to you.  There were no holy assemblies in Noah’s day. But there were in the Writer of Hebrews' day, and it is he, by inspiration of the Holy Ghost—that has commanded that the assembling of the brethren is not to be forsaken. This implies that there would always be an assembly for folk like us not to abandon. And History shows that Christians have always gathered together, even in the worst of circumstances. Even today people risk certain death if they are caught worshiping Christ. This excuse does not justify your forsaking of the brethren in clear violation of God's will for us. And there aren’t any today. Rather judgmental aren't you?
Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Everything you have said is based on the false premise that you do not sin thus you cannot assemble with people who do. It's the same sin the Apostles committed in Galatians 2 (hypocrisy and an elevation of certain men over others). And as I have asked, and you have not answered, how is it that the Apostles themselves can sin but Michaiah cannot? The Apostles sinned are known as Holy Apostles:
Ephesians 3:4-6
King James Version
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:And as pointed out to you, these Holy Apostles put no further burden on Gentiles than this:
Acts 15
King James Version
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.So the only excuse you might have for your violation of God's will in forsaking the assembling of the brethren together is if you have visited every assembly and found them guilty of the above. Have you? And even that excuse won't fly because this is directed to them (Gentiles) personally, and if they did commit these sins it 1) doesn't mean they lose their salvation, because they aren't receiving salvation from not doing these things, they are "doing well" in their daily conversation, and 20 they can confess their sin, and 3) they can appeal to their Advocate, Jesus Christ the (only One that is) righteous, Who alone has been given the power to judge men in an eternal context. Continued... |
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 30, 2022 5:06:57 GMT -8
The corrupt Bible Colleges have infected just about everyone in one way or another. First I would point out that you note "just about everyone." This means that there are brethren out there that have not been infected according to your own admission.
Why aren't you assembling with them?
Second, not everyone goes to Bible Colleges. In fact, this would not account for a very large portion of the brethren.
Third, we would actually be in agreement in part, because I do not view the Doctrine of Modern Christendom to be in a very good place now, or in the last couple Millennia. But the fact is, these problems have been with us since the Day of Pentecost. This is why so much of the New Testament is written in rebuke. Hebrews carries with it some of the most fearful warning for those who "play church."
Still doesn't excuse you from violating this simple command. And again, I caution you, the following warning implies that those who do forsake the assembling of the brethren have forsaken Christ, and even worse—they have held Him in contempt. As well as His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace which He sent to bring conviction in the hearts of unbelievers.
Continued...
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 30, 2022 5:13:58 GMT -8
Very well could be.
Doesn't excuse you, my friend.
It’s so bad that Christians like yourself have resigned to the unbiblical teaching that you will never cease from sin even in the face of scripture that says otherwise: When you can show me that hypocrisy is not a sin and that the Holy Apostles themselves did not sin by being hypocrites and denying the salvation of Christ to Gentiles and following the Law after they had been redeemed from the Law—then you can say my teaching is unbiblical.
So is that your position? Hypocrisy is not sin? Or is it just not sin for you?
Just answer that question, Michaiah, how is it that the Apostles could sin and still be Christians but no one else can? Is God a respecter of persons in your book?
“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Peter 4:1-2) I would suggest to you that the "He" in this verse is Christ. Yes, He has ceased from sin, or in other words, His ministry to redeem men from sin has ceased.
Consider:
Hebrews 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Now look at the proof text:
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
"Arm yourself with this same mind" is directed to the hearer/reader, and we are to have that same mind. Doesn't mean we will be sinless.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Doesn't mean He will appear to a people who never sin, it means He will appear the Second time and this time the issue of sin is settled, unlike His first ministry:
Hebrews 9:26-28
King James Version
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Our sin is put away by the Sacrifice of Christ, not by what we do.
But you continue to live your time in the flesh to the lusts of men, not the will of God. [/div]
If I lived my time in the flesh to the lusts of men, I would have a feel-good message by which I could heap to myself many friends.
Alas, I do not make many friends, because my doctrine does not align with the popular Systems of Theology that are found in Modern Christendom today.
However, I am quite confident that my doctrine aligns with Scripture, hence the Scripture presented with my points as support for what I teach.
And you, my friend, have not responded to some very simple questions that shows without controversy that you are a sinner like the rest of us. The only difference being that you won't admit to it.
"Well, maybe the Apostles did sin, but not me!"
Hebrews 10:14 makes it clear that our sins have in fact been forgiven—forever. You can't change what the Holy Ghost inspired the Writer of Hebrews to write.
If you choose to teach that he contradicts himself in v.26-29 that is on you.
So, knowing that you cannot answer the question as to why it is Holy Apostles of JEsus Christ can sin yet you cannot, I will attempt to introduce you to another fascinating statement of the Writer of Hebrews:
Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Again, the Theme of Perfection (Completion) is found throughout the Book of Hebrews. "Perfection" does not mean "without flaw," as we would apply it today, but refers to a bringing about of completion in regards to something or someone.
Who exactly are the "spirits of just men," and how were they made perfect/complete?
God bless.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 30, 2022 5:31:07 GMT -8
Lots of contingency there. ......yet not a single word about “Grace”——- the only thing that ever Saved any man who ever “got” Saved....... how strange... “It is by GRACE that you are Saved” Seems pretty straight- forward to me....Grace Saves.....Adding to Grace with Works and you cancel the Grace That should have Saved you....I would think very hard before doing that... I would think very hard about what Scripture says, since those are God’s words not mine, and about the purpose of grace, how it operates in a believer’s life. grace is unmerited favor, as apposed to a reward, or wage, which is merited or earned favor. I would be worried about those who teach that grace is something that it is not. especially when they attempt to teach it is actually merited or earned by any mreans |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 30, 2022 5:35:04 GMT -8
The corrupt Bible Colleges have infected just about everyone in one way or another. First I would point out that you note "just about everyone." This means that there are brethren out there that have not been infected according to your own admission.
Why aren't you assembling with them?
Second, not everyone goes to Bible Colleges. In fact, this would not account for a very large portion of the brethren.
Third, we would actually be in agreement in part, because I do not view the Doctrine of Modern Christendom to be in a very good place now, or in the last couple Millennia. But the fact is, these problems have been with us since the Day of Pentecost. This is why so much of the New Testament is written in rebuke. Hebrews carries with it some of the most fearful warning for those who "play church."
Still doesn't excuse you from violating this simple command. And again, I caution you, the following warning implies that those who do forsake the assembling of the brethren have forsaken Christ, and even worse—they have held Him in contempt. As well as His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace which He sent to bring conviction in the hearts of unbelievers.
Continued...
Brother, As he was shown in a different chatroom, James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. Not only did John tell us to confess our sins to God in 1 John 1, we have James here tell us to confess our sins to one another. I will pray for you and your conversation.. Many have come before you |
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Post by michaiah on Aug 30, 2022 6:00:46 GMT -8
P1LGR1MThere isn’t any point in continuing this discussion. Not because of any ill feelings or because your challenges cannot be answered, But because in the end you will not change my mind, and I will not change yours. For over 10 years I have withstood the prevailing philosophy that the Bible cannot be taken at face value. I have withstood the many sectarian influences, I have refused to let men discourage my absolute faith in the King James Bible. The enemy has many weapons. He attacks from various points with a multitude of reasons that appeal to the corrupt old fleshly man. I have buried that old sinful corrupt man and I will never revive him again through the tricks of Satan. I have settled it in my mind that I will never allow man to override the scriptures in any degree regardless of how appealing his explanations are no matter how much my flesh pokes at me to give in. Take this however you want. I’m just expressing myself in honesty and not attacking you personally.
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 30, 2022 6:01:21 GMT -8
So, one at a time, let's take a look at your loss of salvation proof texts. And again, it is a false argument to say that those who believe in the Eternal Security taught in Scripture think they have license for sin or that they discount our responsibility to live holy before God. So present your first and best loss of salvation verse or passage, and let's examine it and see why it is referring to unbelievers rather than believers, and that you are misunderstanding it. God bless.
Ok?? And how responsible are we to live holy? Very:
Leviticus 11:45
For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Leviticus 20:7
Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.
1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.But let me ask you this: how many of the people under Law were "holy" in an eternal context? Let me ask you this: do you think your life is as righteous as these two...
Luke 1:5-6
King James Version
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless....? I'd say these two were what we would call holy, would you agree? Did they receive eternal life because of their "holiness?" No, they too needed the Savior, Jesus Christ, to die in their stead that they might be made holy, set apart unto God—in an eternal context, not a temporal context. You are imposing a meaning of receiving Eternal Salvation based on temporal contexts that have never provided Eternal Salvation. Zecharias and Elisabeth were likely quite a bit more holy than you and I, my friend, because they were brought up in a religious culture that demanded that the Law be kept perfectly. But their Eternal Redemption was not achieved by their personal holiness, what we call today Progressive Sanctification. Positional Sanctification is achieved by only One Sacrifice by One Person, and that is the SAcrifice of JEsus Christ:
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Hebrews 9:12
King James Version
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.Positional holiness, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, is distinct from the holiness we ourselves put forth effort to achieve because we are saved, not so we can eventually be saved. So the first point I would make in regards to holiness is that you need to distinguish between Positional and Progressive Sanctification. THe above passage speaks of Positional Sanctification, and just like our being credited with righteousness, it is something that Christ does when He sets us apart unto Himself based on our profession of faith in Him. Abraham was declared righteous based on what he did. He believed God would give him a son through a woman beyond baring and that one day his (Abraham's) seed would bless all families of the earth. But Abraham died not receiving the promises, the blessing of the Seed being at the top of the list of God's promises to mankind. He was justified temporally, but in the eternal context he was still in need of a Savior. Just as this other fellow who was justified in a temporal context: Luke 18:10-14
King James Version
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.But the Publican was still in need of a Savior, and of being declared righteous based on what Christ did, not what he did. Continued... |
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 30, 2022 6:10:17 GMT -8
Ok?? And how responsible are we to live holy? Very:
Leviticus 11:45
For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Leviticus 20:7
Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.
1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.But let me ask you this: how many of the people under Law were "holy" in an eternal context? Let me ask you this: do you think your life is as righteous as these two...
Luke 1:5-6
King James Version
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless....? I'd say these two were what we would call holy, would you agree? Did they receive eternal life because of their "holiness?" No, they too needed the Savior, Jesus Christ, to die in their stead that they might be made holy, set apart unto God—in an eternal context, not a temporal context. You are imposing a meaning of receiving Eternal Salvation based on temporal contexts that have never provided Eternal Salvation. Zecharias and Elisabeth were likely quite a bit more holy than you and I, my friend, because they were brought up in a religious culture that demanded that the Law be kept perfectly. But their Eternal Redemption was not achieved by their personal holiness, what we call today Progressive Sanctification. Positional Sanctification is achieved by only One Sacrifice by One Person, and that is the SAcrifice of JEsus Christ:
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Hebrews 9:12
King James Version
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.Positional holiness, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, is distinct from the holiness we ourselves put forth effort to achieve because we are saved, not so we can eventually be saved. So the first point I would make in regards to holiness is that you need to distinguish between Positional and Progressive Sanctification. THe above passage speaks of Positional Sanctification, and just like our being credited with righteousness, it is something that Christ does when He sets us apart unto Himself based on our profession of faith in Him. Abraham was declared righteous based on what he did. He believed God would give him a son through a woman beyond baring and that one day his (Abraham's) seed would bless all families of the earth. But Abraham died not receiving the promises, the blessing of the Seed being at the top of the list of God's promises to mankind. He was justified temporally, but in the eternal context he was still in need of a Savior. Just as this other fellow who was justified in a temporal context: Luke 18:10-14
King James Version
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.But the Publican was still in need of a Savior, and of being declared righteous based on what Christ did, not what he did. Continued...
I'm sure that is a typo and you meant to say you are not trying to attack me personally, and I understand that.
I still caution you to give some thought to the point that we see that the Apostles did in fact sin after salvation, and they were at no time in danger of "losing their salvation."
I am addressing another one of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) now in regards to holiness, so if you'd care to view the arguments I present there I can assure you that they are relevant to your own views.
As far as being KJVonly, I would point out that a "new translation" was used by most in Christ's day, and it is quite likely that Paul used one based on quotes he presents in his writings: the Septuagint, which is a Greek Translation of the Hebrews Scriptures.
I prefer the KJV because I have looked at the original language and feel that the KJV translators were no slouches. But it is to the original language we have to go to in order to understand how certain words would have applied to the culture Scripture was written to. For example, the word "letteth" in 2 Thessalonians 2 means "restrain." We can't make sense of the passage if we apply a modern meaning of "let." Another would be "ghost." It is a reference to a spirit, not a haunting apparition as we usually use it today.
But I am not going to condemn you for your view. You have to decide on that, and I am confident God will, as he helps you grow in grace, finish the work He has begun in you.
I have enjoyed the discussion, and my hope for you is that God will bless you in your walk with Him.
God bless.
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 30, 2022 6:11:32 GMT -8
Very:
Leviticus 11:45
For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Leviticus 20:7
Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.
1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.But let me ask you this: how many of the people under Law were "holy" in an eternal context? Let me ask you this: do you think your life is as righteous as these two...
Luke 1:5-6
King James Version
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless....? I'd say these two were what we would call holy, would you agree? Did they receive eternal life because of their "holiness?" No, they too needed the Savior, Jesus Christ, to die in their stead that they might be made holy, set apart unto God—in an eternal context, not a temporal context. You are imposing a meaning of receiving Eternal Salvation based on temporal contexts that have never provided Eternal Salvation. Zecharias and Elisabeth were likely quite a bit more holy than you and I, my friend, because they were brought up in a religious culture that demanded that the Law be kept perfectly. But their Eternal Redemption was not achieved by their personal holiness, what we call today Progressive Sanctification. Positional Sanctification is achieved by only One Sacrifice by One Person, and that is the SAcrifice of JEsus Christ:
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Hebrews 9:12
King James Version
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.Positional holiness, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, is distinct from the holiness we ourselves put forth effort to achieve because we are saved, not so we can eventually be saved. So the first point I would make in regards to holiness is that you need to distinguish between Positional and Progressive Sanctification. THe above passage speaks of Positional Sanctification, and just like our being credited with righteousness, it is something that Christ does when He sets us apart unto Himself based on our profession of faith in Him. Abraham was declared righteous based on what he did. He believed God would give him a son through a woman beyond baring and that one day his (Abraham's) seed would bless all families of the earth. But Abraham died not receiving the promises, the blessing of the Seed being at the top of the list of God's promises to mankind. He was justified temporally, but in the eternal context he was still in need of a Savior. Just as this other fellow who was justified in a temporal context: Luke 18:10-14
King James Version
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.But the Publican was still in need of a Savior, and of being declared righteous based on what Christ did, not what he did. Continued...
I'm sure that is a typo and you meant to say you are not trying to attack me personally, and I understand that.
I still caution you to give some thought to the point that we see that the Apostles did in fact sin after salvation, and they were at no time in danger of "losing their salvation."
I am addressing another one of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) now in regards to holiness, so if you'd care to view the arguments I present there I can assure you that they are relevant to your own views.
As far as being KJVonly, I would point out that a "new translation" was used by most in Christ's day, and it is quite likely that Paul used one based on quotes he presents in his writings: the Septuagint, which is a Greek Translation of the Hebrews Scriptures.
I prefer the KJV because I have looked at the original language and feel that the KJV translators were no slouches. But it is to the original language we have to go to in order to understand how certain words would have applied to the culture Scripture was written to. For example, the word "letteth" in 2 Thessalonians 2 means "restrain." We can't make sense of the passage if we apply a modern meaning of "let." Another would be "ghost." It is a reference to a spirit, not a haunting apparition as we usually use it today.
But I am not going to condemn you for your view. You have to decide on that, and I am confident God will, as he helps you grow in grace, finish the work He has begun in you.
I have enjoyed the discussion, and my hope for you is that God will bless you in your walk with Him.
God bless.
Oops, lol. This was meant for Michaiah, and I'll have to fix it after I finish my response to Hansen.
God bless.
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Post by civic on Aug 30, 2022 6:15:49 GMT -8
I'm sure that is a typo and you meant to say you are not trying to attack me personally, and I understand that.
I still caution you to give some thought to the point that we see that the Apostles did in fact sin after salvation, and they were at no time in danger of "losing their salvation."
I am addressing another one of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) now in regards to holiness, so if you'd care to view the arguments I present there I can assure you that they are relevant to your own views.
As far as being KJVonly, I would point out that a "new translation" was used by most in Christ's day, and it is quite likely that Paul used one based on quotes he presents in his writings: the Septuagint, which is a Greek Translation of the Hebrews Scriptures.
I prefer the KJV because I have looked at the original language and feel that the KJV translators were no slouches. But it is to the original language we have to go to in order to understand how certain words would have applied to the culture Scripture was written to. For example, the word "letteth" in 2 Thessalonians 2 means "restrain." We can't make sense of the passage if we apply a modern meaning of "let." Another would be "ghost." It is a reference to a spirit, not a haunting apparition as we usually use it today.
But I am not going to condemn you for your view. You have to decide on that, and I am confident God will, as he helps you grow in grace, finish the work He has begun in you.
I have enjoyed the discussion, and my hope for you is that God will bless you in your walk with Him.
God bless.
I'm only aware of a single instance recorded in scripture where we see an Apostle ( post Pentecost ) guilty of a sin and was confronted for that sin. Paul confronted Peter one time for the hypocrisy with the Jews and tells the story in Galatians 2. Are you aware of any other instances ? Thanks ! |
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Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 30, 2022 6:16:07 GMT -8
Yes, of course, but it isn't how we are saved, lol. Salvation in Scripture has to be carefully understood as progressive. In the Old Testament no man was in Christ. Would you acknowledge that? Or do you, as Calvinists, believe that GOd has always regenerated men in order for them to have faith? That men were not born again prior to Pentecost is pretty obvious if we understand that Regeneration, the New Birth, requires the eternal indwelling of God. In the Old Testament, the holy Ghost ministered in and through men, but He was not eternally indwelling them, nor were men in Him. Consider: John 14:16-17
King James Version
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
The Spirit of God was "with them," which is the filling of the Spirit, but would be "in them." And this in an everlasting context as contrasted to Christ the Comforter that "another" Comforter (One of the same kind) would replace after He returned to Heaven, His Father's House.
The Spirit was not yet sent into the world and could not until Christ returned to Heaven:
John 16:7
King James Version
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 7:38-39
King James Version
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
The disciples had not received the Comforter as seen in the very teaching of Christ in John 14-17, as well as here:
Acts 1:4-5
King James Version
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
That the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the receiving of the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of Truth) and that this is the receiving of Eternal Life is seen in Peter's testimony concerning Cornelius' salvation:
Acts 11:13-18
King James Version
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Eternal Redemption did not begin until the Son was sent into the World, and if we just pay attention to what Scripture tells us it becomes pretty obvious the more we read:
Galatians 4:4-6
King James Version
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
John 1:11-13
King James Version
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The first question one would ask is, "Does this mean no one was saved in the Old Testament?"
No, it doesn't mean that at all: The Old Testament Saints were temporally justified by their obedience to the will of God revealed to them, and in this way their eternal destinies were secured until that time when Christ would come to redeem them. They were "the spirits of just men made perfect (complete in regards to Redemption)."
And it is no different than the fact that we too are saved, but we still await our glorified bodies. We are no more or less saved than the Old Testament Saints were, we are just at a higher level of progression in God's Redemptive Plan than they were, because we, in our lifetimes—receive the promises of God while we are yet alive.
The Spirit of God is in us as Christ taught, not just with us. We are still filled with the Spirit for purposes of ministry as they were, but they were not eternally indwelt as we are in this Age under the New Covenant.
It is written in the second-most quoted Scripture in the Word of God:
John 3:16
King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
He sent His Son so men could have Eternal/Everlasting life. So that men could be redeemed in an eternal context through the Eternal Indwelling of God.
Continued...
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