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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 20, 2022 22:50:03 GMT -8
God forgives self-righteous and people and legalists who still admit they need Christ—it's only an unpardonable sin once one no longer admits the need for Christ.
I believe that therein lies the problem that is being discussed—- by very definition , the SELF righteous man puts his REAL TRUST in HimSELF....he doesn’t really need the IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ! He’s “ Good Enough” on his own! He sees himself as a “ good” and “ Moral” man who “ lives the life” and when he stands before God he will be Boasting about how “ good” he was and he will be demanding that God gives him what he thinks he deserves—- and God will oblige...If he has not Trusted in the Shed Blood Of Jesus and that ALONE to save him and giving Jesus 100% of the Glory and Himself NONE......What he “ Deserves” is Hell...
On the other hand, The Legalist who ADDS to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing ( as far as Salvation is concerned), that man that believed that although the Shed Blood was “ Necessary” for Salvation —- it just wasn’t “ Adequate” for Salvation ( the guy kinda wanted to be ‘ Co-Savior’).....* HE* is a man that “ Fell from Grace” and was “ Severed from Christ”..... not a great position to find one’s self in.....But Are they Lost? Intelligent men disagree....seems like the Jury is still out on that one....
Personally, I have chosen not to gamble .....I just so happen to Believe that the song that millions of church- goers will sing Mindlessly this Sunday Morning and not for One Second actually Believe is true—— it really *IS* “ NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD” .......NOTHING.
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 20, 2022 23:15:28 GMT -8
Because that is the kind of “LEGALISM” Paul spoke against.
Paul promoted the fulfillment of moral legalism in his epistles.
Case in point:
“Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:8-10).
The term “LEGALISM” is pejoratively parroted so much without proper biblical understanding.
Trying to obey the Laws Of God is GREAT!
Trying to become a “ Moral” man is Fantastic!
Making “ ANY” behavioral changes that Paul or Peter or John or James say to do is of Paramount Importance!
Just make sure you Tend to them “ After “ you “Turn to God with Faith in Jesus Christ” and Rest In Paul’s Gospel Of Grace to get your sins Forgiven and your Salvation assured.......because as positive and as good as these things are, they have NOTHING to do with your Salvation.....that was a “ GIFT”, remember ? A Gift “Given to those that don’t work for it !” .....
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 20, 2022 23:21:42 GMT -8
Paul promoted the fulfillment of moral legalism in his epistles.
Ain’t no doubt about it , Paul was “ Pro Morality”—— But *NEVER* as the Way it be Saved! If we could be Saved by our Morality , Jesus died a horrendous death for Nothing......Only Those That put their Complete Trust in Jesus to Save them will be Saved.....Hell will be chock- full of “Moral” people.....
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Post by hansen on Aug 20, 2022 23:57:37 GMT -8
I can, as a strong advocate of grace, still agree with certain things: 1. The Law is good. 2. The Holy Spirit will produce good attitudes in us by his grace. 3. We will be rewarded for good works. But this is as far as I can go. I cannot agree the Scripture promotes the following: 1. Self-effort and self-goodness are the way to righteous living. 2. We are under the demand and obligation of the Law. 3. We will be judged for sins we are repentant of. 4. We have to fulfill a certain percentage of perfect character or righteous living. 5. We can live sinlessly perfect. 6. Striving and performance are the way to holiness. 7. Our good works merit and earn for us a place in heaven. If we go back to attempting to live righteously by our own efforts and under the perfection the Law demands, or if we mix grace up with works, claiming grace is just to put us back under the Law with a little helpful boost where we restart over and over to try to reach as much perfection we can muster, while continually condemned to always falling short to just get "cleaned up" so we can try, try, again, like the little engine that could—the Law will produce sinful things in us, it will arouse our sin nature to lusting, it will encourage our pride in our own self-righteousness, it will secretly give us a sense of achievement even while paying lip service to grace, it will put us under demonic powers because we are attempting to earn God's favor, it will produce condemnation, shame and a constant sense of falling short, it will produce fleshly striving and a performance mentality where we are always under a sense of demand and pressure to produce more righteous living and try to atone or make up for past failures, all while minimizing the "little" sins we have that we don't think count for much, and inflating our sense of self-holiness. And all of this—all of this—instead of simply resting in the Work of the Cross, proclaiming its finality, and watching the Holy Spirit work miraculous grace inside of us with no burden of self-improvement or threat of judgment for falling short. No longer do we spiritually navel-gaze, but come to a complete place of reliance and dependence and peace in the knowledge that God will do it all in us, constantly being covered in mercy, no matter how weak we feel or badly we perform. Be aware that the focus and preaching of "Lordship Salvation" and righteous striving produces secret spiritual pride and places one under the Ministry of Death and Condemnation the Law was always meant to be. Sneaking legalism back into Christian living is very tempting because it appeals to our self effort and our prideful desire to earn things and feel good about ourselves. Yes, the Law is necessary for the Gospel, yes, the Law does not ever die in and of itself, but the true Gospel is that we died to the Law and all of its demands because the Law was perfectly fulfilled on the Cross. Wanting to contribute to that Work of the Cross with our own efforts and goodness is the perennial temptation of the sin of self-righteousness. Whatever God requires of us in the matter of holy living—cannot be based on the demands of the Law that only grace could fulfill for us. These are non-meritorious requirements fulfilled by grace itself in us, not as an expression of fulfillment or requirements of the Law that only the Cross could fulfill for us, but as the non-meriting demands of a gracious Savior whose yoke is easy and whose burden is light, and who asks nothing of us that he himself is not willing to fulfill through us and in us. Sneaking the Law back in is a subtle and nuanced attack on grace itself as addressed in Paul's letter to the Galatians, and removes the power, freedom and confidence of walking without any demands from God that only Christ could ever fulfill for us and in us. Through the Law I died to the Law. By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. The Law manifests sin. If a Law could give life, the promise would indeed come through the Law. The Law is your tombstone, the warrant for your arrest, the diagnose of your incurable disease, the sure death knell of all your own goodness and efforts, the Law is sent to kill you, show you are not good enough, and display your bondage to Satan, and that is its spiritual purpose. Cling to the Cross alone as the only adequate and full fulfillment of all the Law's requirements, and every other requirement the Lord asks of us must always and only be met by his grace alone. As long as we know that acknowledging that a believer is still obligated under the new covenant to be righteous, to live uprightly, walk in the light, overcome sin, does not constitute “Sneaking legalism back into Christian living”. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 21, 2022 0:00:39 GMT -8
Some grace proponents have been the most legalist people I've ever met.
Ready to damn anyone who remotely has a problem with legalism on the drop of a hat.
I guarantee every single believer has some self-righteous attitudes in them, none of us are perfect and completely free.
I was a legalist for decades, and the Blood of Christ still covered me, although I lost many blessings.
I assume that you are referring to me? You’ve got the wrong guy....it is my opinion that any Legalist that at least started out seeing that he was a Lost Sinner and asked to be Saved by Jesus like the Publican did—— I would GUARANTEE “anybody” that THAT man is Saved.....” Any man that ASKS to be Saved WILL be Saved” ( rom10:13)...any Believer can fall into Error ,especially when Legalism is so Rampant in the world...
We can't ignore the fact that Paul warned that those who ADDED to his Gospel Of Grace ( Given to Him by Jesus) were “ Fallen From Grace” and “ SEVERED from Christ” ....that is very serious and scary stuff....it all really depends on what those two sad descriptions mean.....some very excellent Bible Teachers can make the case that these two descriptions are tantamount to damnation....they would say that we are Saved by Trusting Christ Plus Nothing, and they are not REALLY “ Trusting Christ”......So I Don’t really know for sure....It seems that the Jury is still out in this one.....and I DO believe that Romans 10: 13 overrides all of this....
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Post by hansen on Aug 21, 2022 0:03:32 GMT -8
Paul promoted the fulfillment of moral legalism in his epistles. Ain’t no doubt about it , Paul was “ Pro Morality”—— But *NEVER* as the Way it be Saved! If we could be Saved by our Morality , Jesus died a horrendous death for Nothing......Only Those That put their Complete Trust in Jesus to Save them will be Saved.....Hell will be chock- full of “Moral” people..... Jesus died a horrendous death so that you could be who you were created to be, and that was definitely not a sinner. The law only points us to how we should be, but does not give us the power to accomplish it. Only God can do that, only God can justify man. Jesus died so that you could be reconciled and enter union with the Creator of your soul, from Whom all true righteousness flows. “ But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” Rom 3:21-22 |
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Post by hansen on Aug 21, 2022 0:39:32 GMT -8
As long as we know that acknowledging that a believer is still obligated under the new covenant to be righteous, to live uprightly, walk in the light, overcome sin, does not constitute “Sneaking legalism back into Christian living”.
It certainly can be legalism if it is applied as an "obligation" instead of a gift of grace.
This is the curse of living under the Law.
Grace does not mean that we can sin with impunity, nor does it mean that sin will be automatically overcome in us, without our participation in Gods work, with His grace. We do our part, we say yes, daily as we pick up our cross and follow, because the will of man is never overridden by God. That is the blessing of living under grace: “ Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation [or “we are debtors”]—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13 “ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7 That’s not legalism. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 1:59:46 GMT -8
Welcome to the forum and GREAT first post. Thank you !
Thanks for the invite!
This is one of my favorite discussions, so I hope we can have a meaningful and edifying discussion on what I view to be one of the most important issues a believer will deal with in their walk with the Lord.
I would just throw out a question which is relevant to the discussion. John 15 and "The True Vine" are used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) as a proof text for loss of salvation. So the question I have for them is this:
What is the "vine" that isn't the True Vine?
When Jesus said "I am the Door," there is a door which wasn't the true Door. When He said He was the True Bread (from Heaven), we see the bread that wasn't the True Bread.
So what is the vine that isn't the True Vine?
God bless.
Welcome! I had to think in context what you were asking. I see the false vine as religion. The jews used the law as religion. They thought since they obeyed the law (in their minds anyway) and they were born under the law. That was the vine they had to be attached to. Sadly. So many today are attached to that same vine. Trying to walk-in through a different door. The door of religion. While they may not hold the law of moses as part of that vine, they do have some specific law and commands that they hold onto. They walk through that door. Or that Gate, thinking they are doing what is right.. instead of allowing God to attach them to the true vine which is christ |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 2:04:07 GMT -8
Some grace proponents have been the most legalist people I've ever met. Ready to damn anyone who remotely has a problem with legalism on the drop of a hat. I guarantee every single believer has some self-righteous attitudes in them, none of us are perfect and completely free. I was a legalist for decades, and the Blood of Christ still covered me, although I lost many blessings. I agree, we all struggle with legalism of some type. Sadly Like OSAS, that name gets thrown around and everyone takes offense to it. And many do not understand there are different types. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 2:13:39 GMT -8
It certainly can be legalism if it is applied as an "obligation" instead of a gift of grace.
This is the curse of living under the Law.
Grace does not mean that we can sin with impunity, nor does it mean that sin will be automatically overcome in us, without our participation in Gods work, with His grace. We do our part, we say yes, daily as we pick up our cross and follow, because the will of man is never overridden by God. That is the blessing of living under grace: “ Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation [or “we are debtors”]—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13 “ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7 That’s not legalism. Its legalism if that person believes that if he does not live up to that standard, they will not get to heaven. Because they are as much as living under law. The Jews rode the law their whole life. When this grace started to be preached. They got on the car to ride this grace, Because it sounded good. Sadly many of them never really repented and received this grace, and fell out of the car, or fell off the horse, (fell away) and back to their true love, which was the law. Or they tried to add works of the law (ie circumcision) to grace and make a different gospel. So they could have the best of both worlds We had another group see this grace and take it a different way. I do not have to be bound by law so I am free and can live however I want. A license.. Sadly these people never repented and received this grace either as they turned the grace of God to licentiousness. Both are false gospels. Both are based on pride. (One says I must save myself or help God,. The other says I can live however I want and have my cake and eat it too) both are serious and both are condemned by the New Testament writers. |
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Post by hansen on Aug 21, 2022 3:03:52 GMT -8
Grace does not mean that we can sin with impunity, nor does it mean that sin will be automatically overcome in us, without our participation in Gods work, with His grace. We do our part, we say yes, daily as we pick up our cross and follow, because the will of man is never overridden by God. That is the blessing of living under grace: “ Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation [or “we are debtors”]—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13 “ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7 That’s not legalism. Its legalism if that person believes that if he does not live up to that standard, they will not get to heaven. Because they are as much as living under law. No. Legalism is to believe that mere external observance of the law or the removal of a little piece of flesh will make us just or holy. To be aware of the law and our need for obedience, to be righteous, is a good thing. To think we can do so on our own, under the law, is a curse. Under grace we can begin to do what the law could not, with God now. “ But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.” Rom 3:21 “ For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Rom 8:3-4 God does not condemn righteousness under the new covenant; He condemns and takes away sin, our slavery to it, as we become “slaves of righteousness“ instead. That’s why it’s consequence, death, is done away with as well. “ Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.” Rom 8:1-2 |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 4:34:47 GMT -8
Its legalism if that person believes that if he does not live up to that standard, they will not get to heaven. Because they are as much as living under law. No. Legalism is to believe that mere external observance of the law or the removal of a little piece of flesh will make us just or holy. To be aware of the law and our need for obedience, to be righteous, is a good thing. To think we can do so on our own, under the law, is a curse. Under grace we can begin to do what the law could not, with God now. “ But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.” Rom 3:21 “ For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Rom 8:3-4 God does not condemn righteousness under the new covenant; He condemns and takes away sin, our slavery to it, as we become “slaves of righteousness“ instead. That’s why it’s consequence, death, is done away with as well. “ Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.” Rom 8:1-2 In the context of our conversation Legalism is stating you are saved by your works of righteousness, or good deeds. My God says it is not by works of righteousness which I have done (or are doing or will do) but by his mercy HE SAVED ME My salvation is a completed act. I can not add to it or take away from it. God saved me.. |
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Post by michaiah on Aug 21, 2022 6:34:45 GMT -8
bloodbought1953 said: If you haven’t believed the gospel yet. Because once we are a born again believer the righteousness of the law (LEGALISM) is fulfilled is us! “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4) bloodbought1953 said: Those who stop reading their Bibles believes this juvenilistict nonesense. 1. When you first repent and believe the gospel your sins at that time are forgiven by imputation of righteousness (Romans 4:24). 2. When you continue grounded and settled in the gospel in obedience unto righteousness in God’s goodness, you preserve that righteousness that was gifted/imputed to you (Colossians 1:23; Romans 11:22; Romans 6:16). 3. If you sin willfully, obeying sin unto death , after you have been converted, you mock God and trample over the Son of God. If you do this you will be worse off than before you believed the gospel and will suffer the same fate as the unbelievers (Hebrews 10:26-29; Romans 6:16; Galatians 6:7-8; 2 Peter 2:21; Luke 11:26; John 5:14) Take it to the bank!
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Post by hansen on Aug 21, 2022 7:34:11 GMT -8
No. Legalism is to believe that mere external observance of the law or the removal of a little piece of flesh will make us just or holy. To be aware of the law and our need for obedience, to be righteous, is a good thing. To think we can do so on our own, under the law, is a curse. Under grace we can begin to do what the law could not, with God now. “ But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.” Rom 3:21 “ For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Rom 8:3-4 God does not condemn righteousness under the new covenant; He condemns and takes away sin, our slavery to it, as we become “slaves of righteousness“ instead. That’s why it’s consequence, death, is done away with as well. “ Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.” Rom 8:1-2 In the context of our conversation Legalism is stating you are saved by your works of righteousness, or good deeds. My God says it is not by works of righteousness which I have done (or are doing or will do) but by his mercy HE SAVED ME My salvation is a completed act. I can not add to it or take away from it. God saved me.. God and the faith He delivered once for all to the saints says, as reflected in Scripture and the teachings of the early church and ECFs, that only He can save us, but we can compromise and lose that salvation by what we do or fail to do after turning to Him in faith and being freely justified. He gives all the grace we need in order to work out our salvation together with Him, and yet we can still say no at any time. Any works done as we now authentically obey His will, such as those prepared in advance in Eph 2:10 or those done “for the least of these” in Matt 25 or the putting to death the deeds of the flesh in Rom 8:12-13 are not works of the law but works of grace without which we will not gain eternal life as the Bible makes clear. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 8:27:52 GMT -8
In the context of our conversation Legalism is stating you are saved by your works of righteousness, or good deeds. My God says it is not by works of righteousness which I have done (or are doing or will do) but by his mercy HE SAVED ME My salvation is a completed act. I can not add to it or take away from it. God saved me.. God and the faith He delivered once for all to the saints says, as reflected in Scripture and the teachings of the early church and ECFs, that only He can save us, but we can compromise and lose that salvation by what we do or fail to do after turning to Him in faith and being freely justified. He gives all the grace we need in order to work out our salvation together with Him, and yet we can still say no at any time. Any works done as we now authentically obey His will, such as those prepared in advance in Eph 2:10 or those done “for the least of these” in Matt 25 or the putting to death the deeds of the flesh in Rom 8:12-13 are not works of the law but works of grace without which we will not gain eternal life as the Bible makes clear. Legalism 101 your trying to earn salvation while denying it i will pray for you |
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