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Post by civic on Aug 6, 2022 5:18:15 GMT -8
View Update Here>There are many misconceptions and views on the atonement. I will try and clear up some of those in this thread especially when it comes to the teaching of Jesus.
The Nature of God in the Atonement • Introduction- Definition of theology, attributes and nature of God, Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, and PSA (wrath of God arguments).
Thesis statement: Scripture does not teach that God’s wrath was poured out on Jesus.
• Attributes of God and His unchanging nature.
• Main Old Testament Passages where Penal Substitutionary Atonement is Derived From
• Psalm 22
• Isaiah 53
• New Testament Interpretation of Isaiah 53
• Matthew 8:14-17;
• Mark 15:27-32;
• John 12:37-41;
• Luke 22:35-38;
• Acts 8:26-35;
• Romans 10:11-21;
• 1 Peter 2:19-25
• Jesus as the Expiation for Sin in the Atonement
• Propitiation
• 1 John 2:2; 4:10
• Expiation—Jesus provided forgiveness and covering sin. Use the Jesus “types” (The flood demonstrated the wrath of God whereas the Ark was the type of Jesus. The Ark did not receive God’s wrath—it protected Noah’s family from God’s wrath).
• Conclusion
This paper is about the Trinity, and the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement (e.g., PSA), as it relates to the nature and character of God. The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature as John Calvin taught in his commentary on 1 John 4:8. Also the WCF- the Westminster Confession of Faith leaves out Love as one of Gods attributes. This is very telling as we examine the Cross in light of God’s love and that love is an immutable attribute Gods nature.
God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4:8 tells us.
We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.
God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.
Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. Why? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.
The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.
What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, “Today, you will be with me in paradise Luke 23:43. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life, John 3:16. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning. Furthermore, when this reconciliation took place at the cross, we read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19. The book of Romans states that "God demonstrated His love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). So, Jesus' sacrificial atonement both propitiates (turns away God’s wrath) and expiates (covers our sins). Gods’ wrath does not fall on the sacrifice. Scripture teaches us that sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned (Romans 8:3).
Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
There are 10 points about God and Jesus' last words that are important to examine. Some people teach when Jesus said (My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me) that the Father departed, deserted, and turned His back upon His Son to bear God’s wrath on the cross. They teach this from the pulpits that God is too Holy to look upon sin. However, is this teaching biblical? Is it true?
1-God is Triune- Tri-Unity
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated, or abandoned.
3- God does not send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning, and all the gospel accounts work together with the O.T. quotations
6-In Luke 23:46, Jesus' last words were," Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."
7- In Psalm 22, there are numerous details regarding Jesus' crucifixion. For example, Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes and let God rescue Him. Further, Psalm 22:24 says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and God listened to His cry for help.
8- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus' trust and relationship with the Father when he states, "Into your hands, I commit MY Spirit."
9- Psalm 22:1 was Jesus’ cry in response to his enemies' surrounding him like David, not about the Father turning away from him.
10- Psalm 22 and Jesus last words are a declaration, a proclamation that He is the promised Messiah described in great detail in this Psalm.
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Post by civic on Aug 6, 2022 5:19:08 GMT -8
Though often taught from the pulpit and widely accepted within Christianity, there is a common misnomer that God cannot look upon sin. This misnomer or idea is rooted in a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13, which states, " Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil." To expand upon the meaning of this verse, God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency. However, this verse does not state that God cannot look at sin or that He cannot allow sin in His presence. God did not turn His back on Adam when he sinned--God sought him out. God did not turn His back on David when he sinned. In the book of Job, God allowed satan in His presence for a specific purpose. Satan wanted to make a deal with God over His servant, Job. God restricted Satan, telling him that he "can do anything but touch Job" and not to "lay a hand or finger on him." In the wilderness, Jesus allowed the presence of satan (face to face). Jesus did not turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him," why are you persecuting Me?" If God did not turn His back on sinners, then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. The Father turning His back on the Son (at the cross) is not found in Scripture. Jesus ate with sinners, lived among sinners, loves sinners and He suffered and died for sinners. Wrath- strongs 3709 ὀργή is defined in the Greek lexicon as anger, retribution, vengeance, and indignation. God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love, He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor the early church fathers (ECFs). God is not against Himself. No one in the Trinity is in opposition, no conflict, no dissension, no strife, no disunity, no dysfunction. As if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity. Jesus bearing God’s wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in the pages of Scripture. That doctrine was developed in the dark ages during the Reformation and called Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement or PSA. Calvin's comments on Galatians 3:13, "He could not cease to be the object of his Father’s love, and yet he endured his wrath. For how could he reconcile the Father to us, if he had incurred his hatred and displeasure? We conclude, that he “did always those things that pleased” (John 8:29) his Father. Again, how would he have freed us from the wrath of God, if he had not transferred it from us to himself? Thus, “he was wounded for our transgressions,” (Isaiah 53:5,) and had to deal with God as an angry judge." The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.
Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help. Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me." Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach. Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.
In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup": Matthew 20:17- Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.” 1 Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life. 2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. John 15:20 Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well. Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed. Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.Exodus 34:6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; Isaiah 48:9 For the sake of My name, I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise, I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off. Psalm 78:38 And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath. Psalm 85:1-3 You, Lord, showed favor to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob. 2 You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins. 3 You set aside all your wrath and turned from your fierce anger. The wrath of God (Isaiah 53) Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25.
Matthew 8:14-17 When Jesus came into Peter’s home, He saw his mother-in-law lying sick in bed with a fever. 15 And He touched her hand, and the fever left her; and she got up and waited on Him. 16 Now when evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill. 17 This happened so that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled: “He Himself took our illnesses and carried away our diseases.” Mark 15:27-32 They *crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 28 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with transgressors.”] 29 Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30 save Yourself, and come down from the cross!” 31 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were mocking Him among themselves and saying, “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. 32 Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!” Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him. Luke 22:35-38 And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.” 36 And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was counted with wrongdoers’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” 38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.” John 12:37-41 But though He had performed so many signs in their sight, they still were not believing in Him. 38 This happened so that the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke would be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they will not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and be converted, and so I will not heal them.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke about Him. Acts 8:26-35 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Get ready and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) 27 So he got ready and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” 30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “He was led like a sheep to slaughter; And like a lamb that is silent before its shearer, So He does not open His mouth. 33 In humiliation His justice was taken away; Who will describe His generation? For His life is taken away from the earth.” 34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself, or of someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. Romans 10:11-21 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.18 But I say, surely, they have never heard, have they? On the contrary: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous with those who are not a nation, with a foolish nation I will anger you.” 20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who did not seek Me, I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me.” 21 But as for Israel, He says, “I have spread out My hands all day long to a disobedient and obstinate people.” 1 Peter 2:19-25 For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person endures grief when suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God 21 For you have been called for this purpose, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you would follow in His steps, 22 He who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; 23 and while being abusively insulted, He did not insult in return; while suffering, He did not threaten, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself brought our sins in His body up on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live for righteousness; by His wounds you were healed. 25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. |
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Post by civic on Aug 6, 2022 5:19:51 GMT -8
Atonement- katallagé καταλλαγή -reconciliation, restoration to favor. Strongs 2643. Thayers: adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favor, (from Aeschylus on); in the N. T., of the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:18f; with the genitive of the one received into favor, τοῦ κόσμου (opposed to ἀποβολή), Romans 11:15; καταλλαγήν ἐλάβομεν, we received the blessing of the recovered favor of God, Romans 5:11; with the genitive of him whose favor is recovered, 2 Macc. 5:20. (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.) Romans 5:11- And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV Romans 5:11- And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. NASB 1 Corinthians 5:7 say the following: For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. This means just like the firstborn were spared by the blood on the posts of their doors from God’s wrath so too are we passed over Gods wrath from the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and God’s wrath like with the Israelites are passed over and it falls upon the wicked, not those covered and protected by the blood of the Lamb. Gods’ wrath as Romans 1 declares is still being poured out upon sin and ungodliness and the bowls of Gods wrath and punishment is still yet to come. So, if Jesus bore Gods’ wrath for sinners, then why is God’s wrath still being poured out now and, in the future, if in the Atonement Gods wrath was satisfied? The fact is Jesus did not bear God’s wrath on the cross because it still exists and is being poured out in the bowls of Revelation before His 2nd Coming. Romans 5:9- Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 1 Thessalonians 1:10- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. Propitiation- the turning away of God's anger/wrath Expiation- the covering for our sins Through expiation—the work of Christ on the cross for us—the sin of all those who would ever believe in Christ was canceled. That cancellation is eternal in its consequence, even though sin is still present in the temporal sense. In other words, believers are delivered from the penalty and power of sin, but not the presence of it. Justification is the term for being delivered from the penalty of sin. This is a one-time act wherein the sinner is justified and made holy and righteous in the eyes of God, who exchanged our sinful natures for the righteousness of Christ at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby believers are delivered from the power of sin in their lives and are enabled by the new nature to resist and turn away from it. Glorification is when we are removed from the very presence of sin, which will only occur once we leave this world and are in heaven. All these processes—justification, sanctification, and glorification—are made possible through the expiation or cancellation of sin. (gotquestions.org) Propitiation vs. Expiation- The New Testament usage of hilaskomai and hilasmos, consistent with its precedent usage in the Greek Old Testament, speaks consistently of God’s atoning action in Christ directed toward sin on behalf of sinners, not human action directed toward God to satisfy God. The criterion for interpretation, Stott has said, “is whether the object of the atoning action is God or man.” “Propitiation” indicates an action by humans directed toward God, and “expiation” indicates an action by God toward sin and sinners. According to Stott's criterion, these texts favor "expiation" over “propitiation.” Given the choice of translating hilastērion either “propitiation” or “expiation,” therefore, “expiation” is preferable based on the textual evidence of both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. James Dunn summarizes well the case for preferring “expiation” to “propitiation” as a translation for hilastērion: Darrin W. Snyder Belousek, Atonement, Justice, and Peace: The Message of the Cross and the Mission of the Church (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2012), 247–252. So, as we see, the Tri-Unity of God is eternal, and the Father / Son relationship remained perfect through the crucifixion of Jesus. Our Triune God perfectly accomplished the atonement and our salvation through Jesus suffering for our sins on the cross, and His Resurrection from the dead gave Him and the church victory over sin, death, the devil, and the world. Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512. Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22) Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement
Matthew 26:26-29 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” Hebrews 9:22 Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Leviticus 4:20,26,35 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them Leviticus 6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein. Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. Hebrews 9 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order. The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how our sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice. There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.
Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom. Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.) Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
ConclusionAs we have seen reading through these O.T. passages quoted in the N.T., we discover that the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement. There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. The viewpoint in this paper brings out the fact that Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins. And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10). It is by faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 6, 2022 16:47:53 GMT -8
God's wrath is fully directed at the repulsive and evil satanic beings and realm.. and all they have done to corrupt His Creation... which obviously succeeded since here we are.. thus, that club will never see eden or be allowed ever again to hurt us All he ever shows is love , trying to get us back.. all of scripture
the cross is love for us... He did not crucify Christ men did after all.. and Meanwhile, esau and satan have come up with 5 mil. different interpretations of His words... versions hidden behind catchy philosophical phrases like free will or determinism or psa. to trick you and to trick all of us..
His scripture ( being words He spoke to Us) is not in any way corrupt... every word He Says is Perfect and True.
what's corrupt = men 's translations of His words..the same as satan did to eve
when he said "did God really say that?" ... such even exact lines of one
translation can be compared to another translation and say opposite things..
I was reading an ancient texts translator / sumerian scholar's site today and he was giving line after line in various bible translations...
saying opposite things... it's that bad.
But no one cares ...
this is why citing a bunch of lines on a forum is pointless, and then
cited but without saying Which Translation was used....
and all anonymous translators.. .should anyone wish to discover the name
of who translated this or that line it is not easy to find it...
doable but not easy at all.... and these are men, who could be not even IN Christ...
they are not Isaiah or Paul...but unknown 'authors' as scholars call them...
what no one wants to admit is that there are demons living in these types of body's we have and that have no soul from Him... and He literally never knew them.... they are not from Him and therefore that explains why His mission is to save His Souls. Just as if your child was in a collapsing building you would save your child... His ones were born in Eden and came to be here, in this sin realm
because of adam. PSA is wrong because the only one punishing Christ is satan... NOT God... His souls moved from living the land of Eden (LIFE, His nature and glorified body )
to living upon this earth (=Death and its type of 'nature' and type of natural man and body)... Christ came into this prison to get us out...
from Love... Our Father has only Love for Christ the ones punished forever are the fallen satanic realm beings
and all their false teachers and sorcerers..
thats whats reprobate - sorcery these horrible monsters will lose all they stole from us very soon |
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Post by civic on Aug 6, 2022 17:03:05 GMT -8
"Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer." This is the heart of a very, very grave and serious error. The Bible tells us "The Law brings wrath" because of sin, and that the "wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteousness." We have here, folks, an atonement with ZERO wrath against any sin, which disrespects the holiness of God and circumvents his everlasting Law. my last post addresses this in great detail and Gods wrath not once in all of scripture ever falls upon the righteous but always upon the god haters , rebellious, reprobates , apostates , wicked etc. And nowhere does scripture ever say or imply Gods wrath was necessary for Jesus sacrifice for sin . Plus God being angry at God is a contradiction . My post has no contradictions when it comes to the nature and character of God. My view of the atonement has perfect unity, harmony and love. hope this helps !!! |
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Post by civic on Aug 6, 2022 17:13:46 GMT -8
Your post is full of contradictions, I'm afraid. You have God giving sinners WRATH IN HELL, but Jesus just gets a back rub on the Cross. That is a CONTRADICTION, and, I might add, a gross inequity of justice. Sinners who reject Gods provision in the atonement deserve His wrath in the lake of fire . No contradiction there . Those who are in Christ like those in the Ark are covered / protected from Gods wrath . hope this helps !!! |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 6, 2022 19:16:14 GMT -8
Your post is full of contradictions, I'm afraid. You have God giving sinners WRATH IN HELL, but Jesus just gets a back rub on the Cross. That is a CONTRADICTION, and, I might add, a gross inequity of justice. Brother, Wrath was never poured out on Jesus by the Father, ever. The purpose of His sacrifice was not to appease some pent up hostility God has against man. God was already disposed towards us, He was making it that we could be disposed towards Him....He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. We could not do what needed done, which is to free us from sin's hold, death's hold, and the Law's/judgments hold, so He sent His Son in our likeness, being one of us 100% completely in all ways to live under the Law, obeying it completely and then obeying His Father's will to be handed over to the pagans by the unbelieving Jews to suffer and die over our sins, for the sole purpose to put an end to sin and it's hold upon us and in that freeing us from the judgment of the Law and ushering in the New Covenant. It was not the plan of God to have His Son take the heat for our sinfulness...you will not find that anywhere on the bible. But you will find that it was God's plan to rescue/ransom us from the grip of sin, death, and judgment.
The Lords' one act of righteousness, which is obeying His Father's will to suffer and die, rescues/ransoms us. Those who believe in Him are instantly free from the power of sin dominating their life. They are free from the fear of death. And they are not under the Law but under grace whereby God pours His Spirit out upon us and we call out Father.
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:18-19)
We know God does not punish the innocent for the sake of the guilty. He simply does not. It is wrong to do so. The Lord's death did not involve Him, the innocent, taking the punishment due to the guilty. Instead, God forgives the sins of the repentant. Read what God thinks about the repentant sinner and His promise to deliver them.
"let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. “For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress; instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall make a name for the LORD, an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.” (Isa 55:7-13)
With all this said, please show me where God punishes the innocent for the guilty and where that same thing is said about the Lord's sacrificial death to rescue us. You cannot and will not find it. With that being the case it is not a doctrine that is true. How many people claim their belief is true when in-fact is is an error because it is never found in the bible?...Many. All I am asking is for you to have an open mind to allow God to make sense of what He did through His Son's sacrifice on the cross. I too once thought as you did; that Jesus took our punishment for us, but the Lord showed me the error of that line of doctrine by comparing what the Word states and what I thought, and this just as recent in the past few months. God bless
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 6, 2022 21:59:16 GMT -8
its a lovely ending to a horrible situation
adam caused….
in which our souls moved from living in the land of Eden
to living upon this earth
and everything He said and did…
all this time of our captivity in egypt (this earth)!
has been to get us back…
to where we came from and where we belong …
eden paradise
He is not evil and will not hurt us
for we are all His treasure
it is esau he hates.
and neither He would ever hurt Christ..
Christ His son who He loves so much
is about to return…
His gorgeous creation is being restored
we are going home…. ❤️💕
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 7, 2022 12:02:31 GMT -8
Wrath was never poured out on Jesus by the Father, ever. Yes, it was, stop listening to the devil tickling of all your ears. STOP IT. If you only knew the truth you would repent for this comment. I urge you to stop judging those who oppose your belief. I for one received a glimpse of the truth from the Lord that I now stand in, all the while thinking Jesus was punished for my sins. It was a week later that civic posted his thread on CARM that God used to reason with me. Now I understand more fully the teachings given to us OT and NT both. Do not put yourself as the judge for you only know but a portion..."For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." (1Co 13:12) "And when Jesus entered Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever. He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him. That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” (Mat 8:14-17) As we can read, Jesus took our illnesses and bore our diseases. It does not mean He got sick because our sicknesses were given to Him. Bore means to carry away, to remove, as in to heal not meaning to be given through imputation, which is a whole another thing that is not mentioned in the bible about Jesus and our sins. So bearing our sins, like our illnesses and diseases means to remove, as in to heal us.
Please give the verses and teachings from the NT or OT where Jesus who is innocent got punished by God for our crimes. He never did. We know from scripture that it is an abomination to God for someone who is innocent to be condemned as guilty. It is unjust. What we do know is that God condemned sin in the flesh when His Son died as an offering for sin. The sinless Son of Man explicitly was made in our likeness in every respect, to make amends for our sins by His death. This single act of righteousness in obedience to His Father condemned sin in the flesh (to annihilate sins power, guilt, and being in the soul of a believer), so that those who are born anew are no longer enslaved to sin, but are led by the Holy Spirit and fulfill the intent of the Law. Jesus our Lord purchased us by His blood. Rescued us from enslavement to sin and its condemnation. We are free.
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." It has zero to do with punishment, but everything to do with destroying the works of Satan, which is sin and death. Our Lord's obedience to suffer and die per His Father's will is that one act of righteousness...This right here us what atones for mankind's sin. Sin offerings are meant to avert God's wrath not receive it. Jesus is "holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens." (ref Heb 7:26)
Jesus could not be imputed with sin, or be sin as the 2 Cor 5:21 translator got wrong and still be "holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens." It is because that He, a Son of Man, is all of those things that He was able to make amends for all of us of Adam, whose single sin led to our condemnation. If He were not all of these things at any given moment, then His death would have been useless.
Where pray tell is the punishment when you forgive someone their wrongs? If it were about punishment you would think it would be mentioned in the bible right?...And it is not! What is mentioned is how God in His love sent His Son to free us from sin and death, destroying the works of Satan.
If God forgives you then you are in-fact forgiven and your sins are not held against you. Done, cut and dry.
What about Enoch and Elijah? They were taken up to Heaven by God. If He was so mad about their sins He wouldn't have done that right? When God says He will freely pardon sinners of their sins He means it! No beatings have to occur to make Him feel well disposed towards us! God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself; doing what we could not do and that is to make us well disposed towards Him. "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.". So you see, God was more than well disposed towards us. It is we that was not well disposed towards Him.
Okay, you need to explain how Jesus takes our punishment, which you state is the lake of fire, and yet He is still alive and highly exalted. IF He took our punishment in the lake of fire He would still be there...that is an eternal punishment. Show me contextually in the bible where this is mentioned.
No, no, no, and no. No, Jesus did not become a sinner. How you can ever think that is beyond me. Seriously, that is such a defective thought that you should have stricken it from your mind when it entered. No, Jesus did not take our place. He died for/over our sins. No, Jesus did not bear our penalty. He bore our sins, carried them away, removed them by obeying His Father. Rom 5:18. As you noted above, full penalty is the lake of fire...did not happen.
No, Jesus paid the full price to rescue us. He did not buy our sins! He bought us!
There was no Law until Moses! So stop trying to enforce the Law when there is no Law!
Now you repent for blasphemous remarks that our Sinless Lord was a sinner, being a transgressor that we were...This is really over the top.
He did not take our place. Stop trying to make One who is "holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens" the exact opposite of what He is!
Jesus did not take our place. This is absolutely foreign to the bible. What He did do is amend for sins by obeying His Father.
Brother, you really need to tone down the judgments.
God bless
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 7, 2022 12:20:17 GMT -8
the covenant with God is to return to eden paradise
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 7, 2022 14:43:36 GMT -8
And when Jesus entered Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever. He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him. That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” (Mat 8:14-17)
As we can read, Jesus took our illnesses and bore our diseases. It does not mean He got sick because our sicknesses were given to Him. Bore means to carry away, to remove, as in to heal not meaning to be given through imputation, which is a whole another thing that is not mentioned in the bible about Jesus and our sins. So bearing our sins, like our illnesses and diseases means to remove, as in to heal us.I wanted to comment on the above part of your post. I really like it and I've never heard it put that way, but I like it. Once again, here is another topic "Penal Substitutionary Atonement" that I had never even heard of till Chalcedon's thread on carm "Did Jesus bear Gods wrath and was He forsaken?" But as we progressed in that thread, I did a lot of study on PSA looking at both sides. Like I said it was totally new to me. I think there’s a sticking point that arises again and again in our discussions when talking about the character of God, the significance of the cross, the nature of faith, salvation, and so on. We talk about God’s great love for us, His desire that we live abundantly, and His efforts to draw people to Himself. It’s great theological conversation we can have with one another. As see in Chalcedon's monumental thread with over 10,000 posts. But then the sticking point arises. I was for the first 20 years of my walk with Jesus a non-denominational Christian, then I started leaning to a more Reformed theological background for about 15 years now I'm back to non-denominational. I was shocked to see how God’s great love for us was pushed to the side in favor of God’s wrath. That was made clear to me on carm as soon as I started to turn from Calvinism. That was my sticking point. I could no longer fly that Calvinist banner. There’s a lot in Scripture about God’s love for us. But there’s quite a lot about God’s wrath as well. Is God’s love the only side of God’s character? Is wrath really another, complementary side we must consider? Paul tells us in Romans 11:22 to consider the “kindness and sternness of God.” In another translation it’s the “goodness and severity of God” (KJV). Would it therefore be a weak, tepid, overly feel-good theology that considers only God’s love but neglects to consider God’s wrath? I knew I had a lot of studying to do so I dug in deep. I think a lot of if not all, theological disagreements stem ultimately from differing ways of understanding God’s nature and character. As kids we all wanted to embrace the idea that God is love. This is super simple theology. But a more mature theology recognizes that God’s revelation about his character is more complex. It involves themes of his justice, his judgment, at times his wrath. So, we must go deeper in our theology than a five-year-old’s simplistic picture of God. Yet, what if a deeper biblical and philosophical analysis of God’s character actually leads us back once again to that simple—though this time not simplistic—understanding that God is love? Thats what I'm talking about!
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 5:10:32 GMT -8
Yes, it was, stop listening to the devil tickling of all your ears. STOP IT. If you only knew the truth you would repent for this comment. I urge you to stop judging those who oppose your belief. I for one received a glimpse of the truth from the Lord that I now stand in, all the while thinking Jesus was punished for my sins. It was a week later that civic posted his thread on CARM that God used to reason with me. Now I understand more fully the teachings given to us OT and NT both. Do not put yourself as the judge for you only know but a portion..."For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." (1Co 13:12) "And when Jesus entered Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever. He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him. That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” (Mat 8:14-17) As we can read, Jesus took our illnesses and bore our diseases. It does not mean He got sick because our sicknesses were given to Him. Bore means to carry away, to remove, as in to heal not meaning to be given through imputation, which is a whole another thing that is not mentioned in the bible about Jesus and our sins. So bearing our sins, like our illnesses and diseases means to remove, as in to heal us.
Please give the verses and teachings from the NT or OT where Jesus who is innocent got punished by God for our crimes. He never did. We know from scripture that it is an abomination to God for someone who is innocent to be condemned as guilty. It is unjust. What we do know is that God condemned sin in the flesh when His Son died as an offering for sin. The sinless Son of Man explicitly was made in our likeness in every respect, to make amends for our sins by His death. This single act of righteousness in obedience to His Father condemned sin in the flesh (to annihilate sins power, guilt, and being in the soul of a believer), so that those who are born anew are no longer enslaved to sin, but are led by the Holy Spirit and fulfill the intent of the Law. Jesus our Lord purchased us by His blood. Rescued us from enslavement to sin and its condemnation. We are free.
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." It has zero to do with punishment, but everything to do with destroying the works of Satan, which is sin and death. Our Lord's obedience to suffer and die per His Father's will is that one act of righteousness...This right here us what atones for mankind's sin. Sin offerings are meant to avert God's wrath not receive it. Jesus is "holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens." (ref Heb 7:26)
Jesus could not be imputed with sin, or be sin as the 2 Cor 5:21 translator got wrong and still be "holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens." It is because that He, a Son of Man, is all of those things that He was able to make amends for all of us of Adam, whose single sin led to our condemnation. If He were not all of these things at any given moment, then His death would have been useless.
Where pray tell is the punishment when you forgive someone their wrongs? If it were about punishment you would think it would be mentioned in the bible right?...And it is not! What is mentioned is how God in His love sent His Son to free us from sin and death, destroying the works of Satan.
If God forgives you then you are in-fact forgiven and your sins are not held against you. Done, cut and dry.
What about Enoch and Elijah? They were taken up to Heaven by God. If He was so mad about their sins He wouldn't have done that right? When God says He will freely pardon sinners of their sins He means it! No beatings have to occur to make Him feel well disposed towards us! God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself; doing what we could not do and that is to make us well disposed towards Him. "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.". So you see, God was more than well disposed towards us. It is we that was not well disposed towards Him.
Okay, you need to explain how Jesus takes our punishment, which you state is the lake of fire, and yet He is still alive and highly exalted. IF He took our punishment in the lake of fire He would still be there...that is an eternal punishment. Show me contextually in the bible where this is mentioned.
No, no, no, and no. No, Jesus did not become a sinner. How you can ever think that is beyond me. Seriously, that is such a defective thought that you should have stricken it from your mind when it entered. No, Jesus did not take our place. He died for/over our sins. No, Jesus did not bear our penalty. He bore our sins, carried them away, removed them by obeying His Father. Rom 5:18. As you noted above, full penalty is the lake of fire...did not happen.
No, Jesus paid the full price to rescue us. He did not buy our sins! He bought us!
There was no Law until Moses! So stop trying to enforce the Law when there is no Law!
Now you repent for blasphemous remarks that our Sinless Lord was a sinner, being a transgressor that we were...This is really over the top.
He did not take our place. Stop trying to make One who is "holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens" the exact opposite of what He is!
Jesus did not take our place. This is absolutely foreign to the bible. What He did do is amend for sins by obeying His Father.
Brother, you really need to tone down the judgments.
God bless
Joe your posts in this thread are excellent. You have given me some things to consider in my paper. Thanks ! |
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 5:29:39 GMT -8
And when Jesus entered Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever. He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him. That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” (Mat 8:14-17)
As we can read, Jesus took our illnesses and bore our diseases. It does not mean He got sick because our sicknesses were given to Him. Bore means to carry away, to remove, as in to heal not meaning to be given through imputation, which is a whole another thing that is not mentioned in the bible about Jesus and our sins. So bearing our sins, like our illnesses and diseases means to remove, as in to heal us.I wanted to comment on the above part of your post. I really like it and I've never heard it put that way, but I like it. Once again, here is another topic "Penal Substitutionary Atonement" that I had never even heard of till Chalcedon's thread on carm "Did Jesus bear Gods wrath and was He forsaken?" But as we progressed in that thread, I did a lot of study on PSA looking at both sides. Like I said it was totally new to me. I think there’s a sticking point that arises again and again in our discussions when talking about the character of God, the significance of the cross, the nature of faith, salvation, and so on. We talk about God’s great love for us, His desire that we live abundantly, and His efforts to draw people to Himself. It’s great theological conversation we can have with one another. As see in Chalcedon's monumental thread with over 10,000 posts. But then the sticking point arises. I was for the first 20 years of my walk with Jesus a non-denominational Christian, then I started leaning to a more Reformed theological background for about 15 years now I'm back to non-denominational. I was shocked to see how God’s great love for us was pushed to the side in favor of God’s wrath. That was made clear to me on carm as soon as I started to turn from Calvinism. That was my sticking point. I could no longer fly that Calvinist banner. There’s a lot in Scripture about God’s love for us. But there’s quite a lot about God’s wrath as well. Is God’s love the only side of God’s character? Is wrath really another, complementary side we must consider? Paul tells us in Romans 11:22 to consider the “kindness and sternness of God.” In another translation it’s the “goodness and severity of God” (KJV). Would it therefore be a weak, tepid, overly feel-good theology that considers only God’s love but neglects to consider God’s wrath? I knew I had a lot of studying to do so I dug in deep. I think a lot of if not all, theological disagreements stem ultimately from differing ways of understanding God’s nature and character. As kids we all wanted to embrace the idea that God is love. This is super simple theology. But a more mature theology recognizes that God’s revelation about his character is more complex. It involves themes of his justice, his judgment, at times his wrath. So, we must go deeper in our theology than a five-year-old’s simplistic picture of God. Yet, what if a deeper biblical and philosophical analysis of God’s character actually leads us back once again to that simple—though this time not simplistic—understanding that God is love? Thats what I'm talking about! Another great response to consider, thanks and a few things to think about. There are so many misnomers running around about God. If anyone wants to know what God is like and what He thinks we need to look no further than Jesus and His teachings since He is the Eternal God who became man. 1- Jesus taught us to love our enemies and pray for them 2- Jesus lived among sinners, ate with them and loved them, had compassion on them. 3- Jesus loves sinners, not hates them 4- Jesus on the cross said please forgive them Father for they know not what they do- His enemies who hated Him at the time. 5- Jesus came to seek and save the lost, the sinner 6- Jesus showed us what love looks like, acts like, talks like, lives like and how it treats people. 7- Jesus told us all the law and commandments are wrapped up/fulfilled in loving God with all our being( heart, mind,soul ) and your neighbor as you do yourself. 8- Jesus said if you really love Him you will do what He has commanded 9- Love is described perfectly in 1 Corinthians 13- If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8 Love never fails. 10- Love in action in Galatians 5- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. I could list another 10 points to this list but this should be plenty to get the point across. The wrath, anger, hatred about God towards is misunderstood by many. Gods wrath always falls upon the reprobate, apostate, those hardened against God, those who are wicked and rebellious that reject Gods provision for their sins by Jesus sacrifice. conclusion: because God is Love and Jesus is God we can see to perfection that 1 Cor 13 and the fruit of the spirit in Gal 5:22-23 describes Jesus to a tee . His is love incarnate since God is love we see Him in action described in the gospels and where the Bible defines love. hope this helps !!! |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 15:34:28 GMT -8
let me ask the OP a question
What is the penalty of sin?
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 15:41:42 GMT -8
let me ask the OP a question What is the penalty of sin? Death |
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