Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2022 9:00:19 GMT -8
It was by God's grace that Noah was saved from the flood but it took Noah's obedience to God's word in building the ark to receive God's grace. God did not extend grace, build the ark, preach righteousness to those lost people, etc.....the salvation of Noah was obviously not all God's doing whereas Noah had nothing to do at all. Before Noah was physically saved from the flood the decision had already been made to save him (and his family). Before Noah was physically saved from the flood he was borught into a covenant relationship with God. God did not ask Noah if Noah wanted any of it. God told him and God did not give him a choice. The only choice(s) Noah had came after God chose, called him (selected him from all the surrounding others), separated him, determined his salvation from the pending destruction. Only then was anything Noah thought, chose, and did relevant in any way to his future survival. And it is very doubtful Noah understood the spiritual significance of his own temporal salvation. 1 Peter 3:18-2218For Christ also [m]suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. It corresponded to the salvific appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus. |
|
|
|
Post by gomer on Sept 8, 2022 3:51:08 GMT -8
It was by God's grace that Noah was saved from the flood but it took Noah's obedience to God's word in building the ark to receive God's grace. God did not extend grace, build the ark, preach righteousness to those lost people, etc.....the salvation of Noah was obviously not all God's doing whereas Noah had nothing to do at all. Before Noah was physically saved from the flood the decision had already been made to save him (and his family). Before Noah was physically saved from the flood he was borught into a covenant relationship with God. God did not ask Noah if Noah wanted any of it. God told him and God did not give him a choice. The only choice(s) Noah had came after God chose, called him (selected him from all the surrounding others), separated him, determined his salvation from the pending destruction. Only then was anything Noah thought, chose, and did relevant in any way to his future survival. And it is very doubtful Noah understood the spiritual significance of his own temporal salvation. 1 Peter 3:18-2218For Christ also [m]suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. It corresponded to the salvific appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus. You posted "God did not give him a choice". I do not see anywhere Noah was forced against his will to be in a covenant relationship with God. Noah was in a covenant relationship with God for Noah of his own free will chose to "walk with God" (Gen 6). Noah was not forced against his will to build the ark. God "warned" Noah and Noah of his own free will heeded that warning and 'moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Heb 11). Noah's salvation required God's grace which included Noah building the ark and it took Noah's obedience in building the ark....clearly Noah's salvation was a synergy between God and Noah. As God commanded Noah to build the ark and it took Noah's obedience in building the ark for Noah to be saved, God has commanded all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17). Yet it takes man's obedience to that command to be saved...God does not force all men to repent against their will, man has a choice to repent or not. So there is synergy in man's salvation...God's grace in providing man a way to do something about his sin (repentance) and it takes man's obedience to God by repenting in order for man to be beneficiaries of God's grace. As in 1 Pet 3, God's grace has provide man a way to do something about his sin by being water baptized for remission of sins, AND it takes man's obedience to God in order to receive the benefits (remission of sins) of God's grace. Therefore salvation is impossible apart from God's grace AND man's obedience to receive God's grace...synergy. There is no example under the NT gospel where salvation occurred by man just sitting down doing nothing while God did everything. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 8:44:38 GMT -8
I believe God is in control, but he lets us struggle. There is purpose in that. One purpose is that he wants us to build our faith. His job is a whole lot easier when we trust him. Who is " us"? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 8:50:14 GMT -8
Before Noah was physically saved from the flood the decision had already been made to save him (and his family). Before Noah was physically saved from the flood he was borught into a covenant relationship with God. God did not ask Noah if Noah wanted any of it. God told him and God did not give him a choice. The only choice(s) Noah had came after God chose, called him (selected him from all the surrounding others), separated him, determined his salvation from the pending destruction. Only then was anything Noah thought, chose, and did relevant in any way to his future survival. And it is very doubtful Noah understood the spiritual significance of his own temporal salvation. 1 Peter 3:18-2218For Christ also [m]suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. It corresponded to the salvific appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus. You posted "God did not give him a choice". I do not see anywhere Noah was forced against his will to be in a covenant relationship with God. Noah was in a covenant relationship with God for Noah of his own free will chose to "walk with God" (Gen 6). Noah was not forced against his will to build the ark. God "warned" Noah and Noah of his own free will heeded that warning and 'moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Heb 11). Noah's salvation required God's grace which included Noah building the ark and it took Noah's obedience in building the ark....clearly Noah's salvation was a synergy between God and Noah. As God commanded Noah to build the ark and it took Noah's obedience in building the ark for Noah to be saved, God has commanded all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17). Yet it takes man's obedience to that command to be saved...God does not force all men to repent against their will, man has a choice to repent or not. So there is synergy in man's salvation...God's grace in providing man a way to do something about his sin (repentance) and it takes man's obedience to God by repenting in order for man to be beneficiaries of God's grace. As in 1 Pet 3, God's grace has provide man a way to do something about his sin by being water baptized for remission of sins, AND it takes man's obedience to God in order to receive the benefits (remission of sins) of God's grace. Therefore salvation is impossible apart from God's grace AND man's obedience to receive God's grace...synergy. There is no example under the NT gospel where salvation occurred by man just sitting down doing nothing while God did everything. Do you see anywhere where Noah was asked if he wanted to be the guy God called, wanted to be the guy God chose, or wanted to build the ark? Was Noah asked, or was he commanded? Had God already decided Noah was going to be the guy He called and chosen, the guy He would have build the ark before or after Genesis 6:8-13 because verse 22 plainly states, " So Noah did these things; according to everything that God had commanded him, so he did." Naoh was commanded, not asked. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 9:09:19 GMT -8
Before Noah was physically saved from the flood the decision had already been made to save him (and his family). Before Noah was physically saved from the flood he was borught into a covenant relationship with God. God did not ask Noah if Noah wanted any of it. God told him and God did not give him a choice. The only choice(s) Noah had came after God chose, called him (selected him from all the surrounding others), separated him, determined his salvation from the pending destruction. Only then was anything Noah thought, chose, and did relevant in any way to his future survival. And it is very doubtful Noah understood the spiritual significance of his own temporal salvation. 1 Peter 3:18-2218For Christ also [m]suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. It corresponded to the salvific appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus. Noah was in a covenant relationship with God for Noah of his own free will chose to "walk with God" (Gen 6). You are reading into scripture something scripture does not actually anywhere state. Yes, the Genesis 6 text does state, " Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD," and it does state, " Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God," but not once does scripture ever state, " of his own free will." NOT ONCE. Stop reading into scripture human agency where none is reported! This is always and everywhere a core problem within volitionalism. Choice is read into scripture, AND it is read into scripture before regeneration or salvation. We know Noah was a sinner. Even though we are told Noah was righteous and blameless, he was still a sinner. Otherwise, the many verses found throughout scripture telling us of humanity's individual and collective state of sin would not apply to Noah. We also know Noah had it within him to sin because immediately after God reiterated the (Christological) covenant to him, Noah got drunk, and so drunk one of his own sins was able to sodomize him! That is what scripture reports! Do not read "chose to..." where scripture does not say such things. I might just as easily claim Noah walked with God because he was the guy God chose to be that guy, but my doing so would be just as much an assumption as is the assumption of the unregenerate sinner's choice. However, more fundamentally, even if Noah walked with God before he was commanded to build the ark...... 1) he was not regenerate at that time, 2) he was not an atheist, and 3) the "pledge" came after his salvation, not before. Lastly, I again reiterate the point monergism does NOT negate, deny, disregard, or otherwise dispute the volitional agency of any human. Monergism simply asserts God alone saves in regard to His being the only one who brings a person from death to life, the only one who regenerates, the only one who converts, and He does so based solely on His will and His purpose and nothing of the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner. It is only after regeneration that human volition is soteriologically relevant. Prior to that, the only thing we bring to our salvation is the sin from which we are being saved. Sinners do not bring a salvifically effective volition to regeneration or conversion. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 9:11:56 GMT -8
Before Noah was physically saved from the flood the decision had already been made to save him (and his family). Before Noah was physically saved from the flood he was borught into a covenant relationship with God. God did not ask Noah if Noah wanted any of it. God told him and God did not give him a choice. The only choice(s) Noah had came after God chose, called him (selected him from all the surrounding others), separated him, determined his salvation from the pending destruction. Only then was anything Noah thought, chose, and did relevant in any way to his future survival. And it is very doubtful Noah understood the spiritual significance of his own temporal salvation. 1 Peter 3:18-2218For Christ also [m]suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. It corresponded to the salvific appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus. You posted "God did not give him a choice". I do not see anywhere Noah was forced against his will to be in a covenant relationship with God. Noah was in a covenant relationship with God for Noah of his own free will chose to "walk with God" (Gen 6).............. The covenant God initiated with Noah was a covenant He initiated before Noah was ever born. |
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Sept 11, 2022 16:01:06 GMT -8
Maybe I've been wrong to think this, but to me, since apart from him we can do nothing (and several other similar scriptural statements), monergism necessarily includes all of a person's Christian growth. Then how do you explain all of the content in the Westminster Confession of Faith clearly stating God didn't do violence to the human will, and affirming human volition and the responsibility and culpability humans bear for their own actions? When this op, via Tiessen, asserts, "Monergists believe that everything that occurs happens according to the will of God’s eternal purpose," that is true and correct but incomplete because monergism is not robot theology. Humans are not puppets and God is not a Puppet Master. Volitional agency is asserted and affirmed in monergism, not denied. The monergistic perspective believe humans act according to their nature. a good person will act good and since - according to scripture - there are no good persons, there are none who act good. A sinful person will act according to their sinful nature. A sinfully fleshly person will act according to the fleshly nature and a Spiritual person (big "S," not a little one) will act according to that Spiritual nature endowed to them at conversion. The sinfully dead and enslaved unregenerate non-believer has only the flesh; no Spirit. There's no possibility that person can act in a Spiritual manner because s/he has no Spirit by which that might be possible. Even the otherwise moral act, or the obedient act, done solely by the sinful flesh can and is deemed nothing more than soiled rags. Since the sinfully fleshly person has nothing God wants or needs everything s/he does is worthless or merits nothing salvifically. It is NOT that the human lacks a will, the ability to make choices, or is absent any and all volitional agency. That is not monergism. When Jesus says, without me you can do nothing," he is speaking within the given context, not making a universal statement about all human inability or inaction. If that were the case then his words would fall on incapable ears and be meaningless. Remember: there are always two purposes in God's words. The first is judgment, the second is salvation. God is just as glorified when He metes out the just recompense for sin as He is when he applies His grace for salvation. Clearly humans can sin apart from Jesus  . There's an irony to your bringing up John 15:5 because Arminius used that exact same verse, quoting Augustine's use, to prove what we now call Total Depravity. Arminius clearly didn't believe "nothing" was universal," only soteriological. Monergists agree. My regrets but I gotta go. Please explain how monergism in any context —soteriological or otherwise— does violence to the human will. We remain responsible for our choices, and God accomplishes his ends through many means, among which is our choices. This really isn't complicated. Not sure why you would think monergism and real choice are incompatible. |
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Sept 11, 2022 16:06:09 GMT -8
You posted "God did not give him a choice". I do not see anywhere Noah was forced against his will to be in a covenant relationship with God. Noah was in a covenant relationship with God for Noah of his own free will chose to "walk with God" (Gen 6). Noah was not forced against his will to build the ark. God "warned" Noah and Noah of his own free will heeded that warning and 'moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Heb 11). Noah's salvation required God's grace which included Noah building the ark and it took Noah's obedience in building the ark....clearly Noah's salvation was a synergy between God and Noah. As God commanded Noah to build the ark and it took Noah's obedience in building the ark for Noah to be saved, God has commanded all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17). Yet it takes man's obedience to that command to be saved...God does not force all men to repent against their will, man has a choice to repent or not. So there is synergy in man's salvation...God's grace in providing man a way to do something about his sin (repentance) and it takes man's obedience to God by repenting in order for man to be beneficiaries of God's grace. As in 1 Pet 3, God's grace has provide man a way to do something about his sin by being water baptized for remission of sins, AND it takes man's obedience to God in order to receive the benefits (remission of sins) of God's grace. Therefore salvation is impossible apart from God's grace AND man's obedience to receive God's grace...synergy. There is no example under the NT gospel where salvation occurred by man just sitting down doing nothing while God did everything. Do you see anywhere where Noah was asked if he wanted to be the guy God called, wanted to be the guy God chose, or wanted to build the ark? Was Noah asked, or was he commanded? Had God already decided Noah was going to be the guy He called and chosen, the guy He would have build the ark before or after Genesis 6:8-13 because verse 22 plainly states, " So Noah did these things; according to everything that God had commanded him, so he did." Naoh was commanded, not asked. Were we given a choice to be born? Were we given a choice to have the parents and siblings we had? What difference does it make? God brought about the circumstances, including Noah's own birth, in which Noah chose to obey. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 16:49:29 GMT -8
Then how do you explain all of the content in the Westminster Confession of Faith clearly stating God didn't do violence to the human will, and affirming human volition and the responsibility and culpability humans bear for their own actions? When this op, via Tiessen, asserts, "Monergists believe that everything that occurs happens according to the will of God’s eternal purpose," that is true and correct but incomplete because monergism is not robot theology. Humans are not puppets and God is not a Puppet Master. Volitional agency is asserted and affirmed in monergism, not denied. The monergistic perspective believe humans act according to their nature. a good person will act good and since - according to scripture - there are no good persons, there are none who act good. A sinful person will act according to their sinful nature. A sinfully fleshly person will act according to the fleshly nature and a Spiritual person (big "S," not a little one) will act according to that Spiritual nature endowed to them at conversion. The sinfully dead and enslaved unregenerate non-believer has only the flesh; no Spirit. There's no possibility that person can act in a Spiritual manner because s/he has no Spirit by which that might be possible. Even the otherwise moral act, or the obedient act, done solely by the sinful flesh can and is deemed nothing more than soiled rags. Since the sinfully fleshly person has nothing God wants or needs everything s/he does is worthless or merits nothing salvifically. It is NOT that the human lacks a will, the ability to make choices, or is absent any and all volitional agency. That is not monergism. When Jesus says, without me you can do nothing," he is speaking within the given context, not making a universal statement about all human inability or inaction. If that were the case then his words would fall on incapable ears and be meaningless. Remember: there are always two purposes in God's words. The first is judgment, the second is salvation. God is just as glorified when He metes out the just recompense for sin as He is when he applies His grace for salvation. Clearly humans can sin apart from Jesus . There's an irony to your bringing up John 15:5 because Arminius used that exact same verse, quoting Augustine's use, to prove what we now call Total Depravity. Arminius clearly didn't believe "nothing" was universal," only soteriological. Monergists agree. My regrets but I gotta go. Please explain how monergism in any context —soteriological or otherwise— does violence to the human will. We remain responsible for our choices, and God accomplishes his ends through many means, among which is our choices. This really isn't complicated. Not sure why you would think monergism and real choice are incompatible. I said the monergist believes God did NOT do violence to the human will when He ordained all things from creation. Re-read my post. The rest of your post is not in dispute but neither does it have anything to do with this op. Both monergists and synergists will agree. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 16:58:04 GMT -8
Do you see anywhere where Noah was asked if he wanted to be the guy God called, wanted to be the guy God chose, or wanted to build the ark? Was Noah asked, or was he commanded? Had God already decided Noah was going to be the guy He called and chosen, the guy He would have build the ark before or after Genesis 6:8-13 because verse 22 plainly states, " So Noah did these things; according to everything that God had commanded him, so he did." Naoh was commanded, not asked. Were we given a choice to be born? Were we given a choice to have the parents and siblings we had? What difference does it make? God brought about the circumstances, including Noah's own birth, in which Noah chose to obey. Do you think rhetorical questions that have nothing to do with the topic of this op are an effective means of communicating your position? Do you think it is okay for you to ask all the questions but never answering any of those put to you? You were asked for scripture and you haven't posted and answer to the question asked. What you've done is ask more questions that are all rhetorical non sequiturs. Where is the scripture stating Noah of his own free will chose to walk with God or any scripture making any mention of Noah's free will? Show me the scripture. |
|
|
|
Post by gomer on Sept 12, 2022 4:37:58 GMT -8
You posted "God did not give him a choice". I do not see anywhere Noah was forced against his will to be in a covenant relationship with God. Noah was in a covenant relationship with God for Noah of his own free will chose to "walk with God" (Gen 6). Noah was not forced against his will to build the ark. God "warned" Noah and Noah of his own free will heeded that warning and 'moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Heb 11). Noah's salvation required God's grace which included Noah building the ark and it took Noah's obedience in building the ark....clearly Noah's salvation was a synergy between God and Noah. As God commanded Noah to build the ark and it took Noah's obedience in building the ark for Noah to be saved, God has commanded all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17). Yet it takes man's obedience to that command to be saved...God does not force all men to repent against their will, man has a choice to repent or not. So there is synergy in man's salvation...God's grace in providing man a way to do something about his sin (repentance) and it takes man's obedience to God by repenting in order for man to be beneficiaries of God's grace. As in 1 Pet 3, God's grace has provide man a way to do something about his sin by being water baptized for remission of sins, AND it takes man's obedience to God in order to receive the benefits (remission of sins) of God's grace. Therefore salvation is impossible apart from God's grace AND man's obedience to receive God's grace...synergy. There is no example under the NT gospel where salvation occurred by man just sitting down doing nothing while God did everything. Do you see anywhere where Noah was asked if he wanted to be the guy God called, wanted to be the guy God chose, or wanted to build the ark? Was Noah asked, or was he commanded? Had God already decided Noah was going to be the guy He called and chosen, the guy He would have build the ark before or after Genesis 6:8-13 because verse 22 plainly states, " So Noah did these things; according to everything that God had commanded him, so he did." Naoh was commanded, not asked. Noah was commanded to build an ark but that did not mean he had no choice in disobeying that command. Noah of his own will choose to "walk with God" therefore found grace in God's eyes. Saul/Paul was God's choice in taking the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 9) but that did not mean Paul had no choice for Paul said of himself " I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision" (Acts 26:19) which shows Paul could have chosen to disobey but chose to obey. God having foreknowledge knows when He confronts man with making a decision God already foreknows what choice that man of his own free will choice will choose and God uses that free will choice to further accomplish His will. Because God commands some thing does not mean man has no choice to disobey....commands do not take away free will choice. Men have been commanded to believe and repent and be baptized most will choose to disobey. |
|
|
|
Post by gomer on Sept 12, 2022 4:53:59 GMT -8
Noah was in a covenant relationship with God for Noah of his own free will chose to "walk with God" (Gen 6). You are reading into scripture something scripture does not actually anywhere state. Yes, the Genesis 6 text does state, " Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD," and it does state, " Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God," but not once does scripture ever state, " of his own free will." NOT ONCE. Stop reading into scripture human agency where none is reported! This is always and everywhere a core problem within volitionalism. Choice is read into scripture, AND it is read into scripture before regeneration or salvation. We know Noah was a sinner. Even though we are told Noah was righteous and blameless, he was still a sinner. Otherwise, the many verses found throughout scripture telling us of humanity's individual and collective state of sin would not apply to Noah. We also know Noah had it within him to sin because immediately after God reiterated the (Christological) covenant to him, Noah got drunk, and so drunk one of his own sins was able to sodomize him! That is what scripture reports! Do not read "chose to..." where scripture does not say such things. I might just as easily claim Noah walked with God because he was the guy God chose to be that guy, but my doing so would be just as much an assumption as is the assumption of the unregenerate sinner's choice. However, more fundamentally, even if Noah walked with God before he was commanded to build the ark...... 1) he was not regenerate at that time, 2) he was not an atheist, and 3) the "pledge" came after his salvation, not before. Lastly, I again reiterate the point monergism does NOT negate, deny, disregard, or otherwise dispute the volitional agency of any human. Monergism simply asserts God alone saves in regard to His being the only one who brings a person from death to life, the only one who regenerates, the only one who converts, and He does so based solely on His will and His purpose and nothing of the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner. It is only after regeneration that human volition is soteriologically relevant. Prior to that, the only thing we bring to our salvation is the sin from which we are being saved. Sinners do not bring a salvifically effective volition to regeneration or conversion. It does not state anywhere in Scripture Noah had no free will and was forced against his will to walk with God, forced against his will to build the ark. If monergism means Noah had no choice but was forced by God to do only what God commanded him to do then monergism does not just violate free will but implies man has no free will at all. Jonah 1:1, Jonah was commanded to go to Nineveh to preach, but he chose of his own free will to disobey God and run from God to Tarshish. Jonah was punished for HIS free will choice in disobeying God by being swallowed by a great fish. God did not force Jonah to disobey just so God could punish him for what God forced him to do, that would be unjust, sadistic behaviour on God's part. From the fish's belly Jonah repented and the fish vomited Jonah out. Then Jonah 3:1-2 God's word came to Jonah a second time and commanded him to go to Nineveh and Jonah of his own free will obeyed, God did not force him to go. Jonah learned a great lesson, that being, even though God gave man free will how man uses that free will has consequences...Jonah learned free will choices have consequences. Jonah knew the consequences if he disobeyed God a second time, hence he freely chose to obey God the second time. Man can disobey God's commands but it comes with consequences..... Matt 23:37 those Jews chose for themselves, they "would not" do as Christ desired they "would" do, yet their free will choice came with consequences...your house is left unto you desolate. |
|
|
|
Post by resurrection33 on Sept 12, 2022 5:10:49 GMT -8
I believe God is in control, but he lets us struggle. There is purpose in that. One purpose is that he wants us to build our faith. His job is a whole lot easier when we trust him. Who is " us"? Everybody. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 9:24:25 GMT -8
Do you see anywhere where Noah was asked if he wanted to be the guy God called, wanted to be the guy God chose, or wanted to build the ark? Was Noah asked, or was he commanded? Had God already decided Noah was going to be the guy He called and chosen, the guy He would have build the ark before or after Genesis 6:8-13 because verse 22 plainly states, " So Noah did these things; according to everything that God had commanded him, so he did." Naoh was commanded, not asked. Noah was commanded to build an ark but that did not mean he had no choice in disobeying that command. Noah of his own will choose to "walk with God" therefore found grace in God's eyes. Saul/Paul was God's choice in taking the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 9) but that did not mean Paul had no choice for Paul said of himself " I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision" (Acts 26:19) which shows Paul could have chosen to disobey but chose to obey. God having foreknowledge knows when He confronts man with making a decision God already foreknows what choice that man of his own free will choice will choose and God uses that free will choice to further accomplish His will. Because God commands some thing does not mean man has no choice to disobey....commands do not take away free will choice. Men have been commanded to believe and repent and be baptized most will choose to disobey. I've already addressed this. Please take greater care to read what is posted so as not to make comments that have already been addressed. Any obedience on Noah's part came after he was brought into the God-initiated covenant by God, and that happened without his being asked. There are many other concerns but this one very real matter of the covenant relationship's a priori establishment is one often ignored by synergists. It's got you on the defensive AND reading things into scripture that scripture does not actually state. IF you'll open you Bible and read what is stated and accept what is written exactly as written without assuming either Calvin or Arminius you will find what I have posted is correct. It applies to every single covenant in the Bible. The scriptures' report of choice and obedience come after the establishment of the covenants. There are no exceptions to the rule and even if there was an exception, we don't form sound doctrine on the exceptions to the rules. The New Testament makes it very clear the Old Testament Covenants were related to the covenant we now have in Christ. The pattern established from the beginning to the end of the entire Bible is the covenant, not just choosing and calling on God's part, is always first established. Then and only then does God ask about the human's choice. Take some time and read through some of the other threads in the soteriology-related boards here in BAM because I've brought this op in several threads and now one has anything to say about it. It appears to be a new concept for the Arminian and other synergists. If that's true then the proper response is not to discuss/debate/argue with me, but to open the Bible and study the covenants. Perhaps that is why silence has ensued. If so, then I commend those doing so.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 9:37:25 GMT -8
Do you see anywhere where Noah was asked if he wanted to be the guy God called, wanted to be the guy God chose, or wanted to build the ark? Was Noah asked, or was he commanded? Had God already decided Noah was going to be the guy He called and chosen, the guy He would have build the ark before or after Genesis 6:8-13 because verse 22 plainly states, " So Noah did these things; according to everything that God had commanded him, so he did." Naoh was commanded, not asked. Saul/Paul was God's choice in taking the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 9) but that did not mean Paul had no choice..... I cannot believe you're citing Paul! He is an undeniable example of a man brought by God against his will into the covenant relationship!!! He'd been prepared his entire life to do what God would have him do it and there's no evidence he understood his own preparation prior to his conversion. He was raised in a multi-cultural home by a father who was a Roman citizen (entitled to all the privileges of citizenry) and a Jewish mother (entitling him to lay claim to the God of Abraham), in a Greek city where he would be exposed to Hellenism and all the surrounding paganisms, and educated in a sect of Judaism that believed in a resurrection. He willfully persecuted and prosecuted Christians despite the likelihood he had heard from Jesus directly during the incarnation. God literally knowcked the man off his donkey, struck him blind, and he still did not believe salvifically. What did God tell Ananias when Ananias asked about God sending Saul to him? Acts 9:15-16"15...he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16for I will show him how much he must suffer in behalf of My name.” Saul was a chosen instrument of God's before he was knocked off his donkey. Saul did not know he was thusly chosen. It happened before Ananias went to Paul and baptized him. How can Saul choose to be or do something he doesn't know is going to happen? What choice does he really have if God has already decided he is the guy who is going to be that guy? He was not asked to join the covenant but once the covenant relationship was made known to him, he made millions of choices to live rightly within the covenant AND he taught everyone else in the covenant to do the same. |
|
. 
