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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 9:39:44 GMT -8
You are reading into scripture something scripture does not actually anywhere state. Yes, the Genesis 6 text does state, " Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD," and it does state, " Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God," but not once does scripture ever state, " of his own free will." NOT ONCE. Stop reading into scripture human agency where none is reported! This is always and everywhere a core problem within volitionalism. Choice is read into scripture, AND it is read into scripture before regeneration or salvation. We know Noah was a sinner. Even though we are told Noah was righteous and blameless, he was still a sinner. Otherwise, the many verses found throughout scripture telling us of humanity's individual and collective state of sin would not apply to Noah. We also know Noah had it within him to sin because immediately after God reiterated the (Christological) covenant to him, Noah got drunk, and so drunk one of his own sins was able to sodomize him! That is what scripture reports! Do not read "chose to..." where scripture does not say such things. I might just as easily claim Noah walked with God because he was the guy God chose to be that guy, but my doing so would be just as much an assumption as is the assumption of the unregenerate sinner's choice. However, more fundamentally, even if Noah walked with God before he was commanded to build the ark...... 1) he was not regenerate at that time, 2) he was not an atheist, and 3) the "pledge" came after his salvation, not before. Lastly, I again reiterate the point monergism does NOT negate, deny, disregard, or otherwise dispute the volitional agency of any human. Monergism simply asserts God alone saves in regard to His being the only one who brings a person from death to life, the only one who regenerates, the only one who converts, and He does so based solely on His will and His purpose and nothing of the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner. It is only after regeneration that human volition is soteriologically relevant. Prior to that, the only thing we bring to our salvation is the sin from which we are being saved. Sinners do not bring a salvifically effective volition to regeneration or conversion. It does not state anywhere in Scripture Noah had no free will and was forced against his will to walk with God, forced against his will to build the ark. I never said it did. You are arguing against something no one anywhere has ever asserted. This is now the second time I have asked you not to that. Go back and re-read the posts as objectively as you can so you don't repeat this error a third time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 9:44:36 GMT -8
You are reading into scripture something scripture does not actually anywhere state. Yes, the Genesis 6 text does state, " Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD," and it does state, " Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God," but not once does scripture ever state, " of his own free will." NOT ONCE. Stop reading into scripture human agency where none is reported! This is always and everywhere a core problem within volitionalism. Choice is read into scripture, AND it is read into scripture before regeneration or salvation. We know Noah was a sinner. Even though we are told Noah was righteous and blameless, he was still a sinner. Otherwise, the many verses found throughout scripture telling us of humanity's individual and collective state of sin would not apply to Noah. We also know Noah had it within him to sin because immediately after God reiterated the (Christological) covenant to him, Noah got drunk, and so drunk one of his own sins was able to sodomize him! That is what scripture reports! Do not read "chose to..." where scripture does not say such things. I might just as easily claim Noah walked with God because he was the guy God chose to be that guy, but my doing so would be just as much an assumption as is the assumption of the unregenerate sinner's choice. However, more fundamentally, even if Noah walked with God before he was commanded to build the ark...... 1) he was not regenerate at that time, 2) he was not an atheist, and 3) the "pledge" came after his salvation, not before. Lastly, I again reiterate the point monergism does NOT negate, deny, disregard, or otherwise dispute the volitional agency of any human. Monergism simply asserts God alone saves in regard to His being the only one who brings a person from death to life, the only one who regenerates, the only one who converts, and He does so based solely on His will and His purpose and nothing of the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner. It is only after regeneration that human volition is soteriologically relevant. Prior to that, the only thing we bring to our salvation is the sin from which we are being saved. Sinners do not bring a salvifically effective volition to regeneration or conversion. If monergism means Noah had no choice but was forced by God to do only what God commanded him to do............ It does not. Go back and re-read the posts and read them as many times as it takes for you to CORRECTLY understand because no one is saying what you apparently think they are saying and you're arguing against a red herring you created. I defined the monergist position. There is no excuse for anyone to post as if that hasn't happened. Monergism simply asserts God alone converts and He does so based solely on His own will and His own purpose(s) and not anything having to do with the creature He alone is saving. It is only after the sinfully dead and enslaved creature is regenerated, or converted from life to death, or born anew from above, that the creature is able to make any collaborative choice with God and assert his will with any degree of influence and power by the Holy Spirit.
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Post by gomer on Sept 12, 2022 14:42:16 GMT -8
Noah was commanded to build an ark but that did not mean he had no choice in disobeying that command. Noah of his own will choose to "walk with God" therefore found grace in God's eyes. Saul/Paul was God's choice in taking the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 9) but that did not mean Paul had no choice for Paul said of himself " I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision" (Acts 26:19) which shows Paul could have chosen to disobey but chose to obey. God having foreknowledge knows when He confronts man with making a decision God already foreknows what choice that man of his own free will choice will choose and God uses that free will choice to further accomplish His will. Because God commands some thing does not mean man has no choice to disobey....commands do not take away free will choice. Men have been commanded to believe and repent and be baptized most will choose to disobey. I've already addressed this. Please take greater care to read what is posted so as not to make comments that have already been addressed. Any obedience on Noah's part came after he was brought into the God-initiated covenant by God, and that happened without his being asked. There are many other concerns but this one very real matter of the covenant relationship's a priori establishment is one often ignored by synergists. It's got you on the defensive AND reading things into scripture that scripture does not actually state. IF you'll open you Bible and read what is stated and accept what is written exactly as written without assuming either Calvin or Arminius you will find what I have posted is correct. It applies to every single covenant in the Bible. The scriptures' report of choice and obedience come after the establishment of the covenants. There are no exceptions to the rule and even if there was an exception, we don't form sound doctrine on the exceptions to the rules. The New Testament makes it very clear the Old Testament Covenants were related to the covenant we now have in Christ. The pattern established from the beginning to the end of the entire Bible is the covenant, not just choosing and calling on God's part, is always first established. Then and only then does God ask about the human's choice. Take some time and read through some of the other threads in the soteriology-related boards here in BAM because I've brought this op in several threads and now one has anything to say about it. It appears to be a new concept for the Arminian and other synergists. If that's true then the proper response is not to discuss/debate/argue with me, but to open the Bible and study the covenants. Perhaps that is why silence has ensued. If so, then I commend those doing so. The issue I raised was not about WHEN Noah was brought into a covenant relationship with God, but dealt with His salvation from the flood. His salvation from the flood clearly required God's grace for God did not owe it to him, but it also required he build an ark ....synergy. For Noah to remain in a covenant relationship and remain in God's grace and be saved, then Noah HAD to build the ark or he would have been spiritually lost. Building the ark therefore was as much a part of Noah's spiritual salvation as his walking with God. Nowhere does the text say God forced Noah to be in a covenant relationship with Him or forced Noah to walk with Him or forced Noah to build an ark. Nowhere in the NT is it taught that one is first in a NT covenant relationship with God before one obeys God. One is lost and remains lost until one first obeys so there is synergy........ Acts 2, the Jews were lost, God did not owe them salvation but God graciously gave them instructions on how to be saved (repent and be baptized) but it took their obedience to those instructions for them to be saved, to be in a NT covenant relationship. They could not save themselves apart from those instructions, yet God would not save them if they disobeyed His instructions...it took BOTH......synergy.
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Post by gomer on Sept 12, 2022 14:50:39 GMT -8
If monergism means Noah had no choice but was forced by God to do only what God commanded him to do............ It does not. Go back and re-read the posts and read them as many times as it takes for you to CORRECTLY understand because no one is saying what you apparently think they are saying and you're arguing against a red herring you created. I defined the monergist position. There is no excuse for anyone to post as if that hasn't happened. Monergism simply asserts God alone converts and He does so based solely on His own will and His own purpose(s) and not anything having to do with the creature He alone is saving. It is only after the sinfully dead and enslaved creature is regenerated, or converted from life to death, or born anew from above, that the creature is able to make any collaborative choice with God and assert his will with any degree of influence and power by the Holy Spirit. You posted (my emp) " Yes, the Genesis 6 text does state, "Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD," and it does state, "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God," but not once does scripture ever state, "of his own free will." If Noah did not walk with God of his own free will or obey God's command of his own free will then he was FORCED into doing those things. If God alone converts and where man has no choice in this, then God is FORCING conversion upon men for men have no other choice than what God is forcing upon them. Monergism has God forcing conversion, regeneration upon man where man has no choice. If God wants "Joe" to be converted and regenerated, then can Joe decide for himself he does not want to be converted/regenerated? If not then monergism takes away free will. You cannot have God doing everything while man can do nothing yet claim man has a choice in what God is doing with him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 15:47:03 GMT -8
I've already addressed this. Please take greater care to read what is posted so as not to make comments that have already been addressed. Any obedience on Noah's part came after he was brought into the God-initiated covenant by God, and that happened without his being asked. There are many other concerns but this one very real matter of the covenant relationship's a priori establishment is one often ignored by synergists. It's got you on the defensive AND reading things into scripture that scripture does not actually state. IF you'll open you Bible and read what is stated and accept what is written exactly as written without assuming either Calvin or Arminius you will find what I have posted is correct. It applies to every single covenant in the Bible. The scriptures' report of choice and obedience come after the establishment of the covenants. There are no exceptions to the rule and even if there was an exception, we don't form sound doctrine on the exceptions to the rules. The New Testament makes it very clear the Old Testament Covenants were related to the covenant we now have in Christ. The pattern established from the beginning to the end of the entire Bible is the covenant, not just choosing and calling on God's part, is always first established. Then and only then does God ask about the human's choice. Take some time and read through some of the other threads in the soteriology-related boards here in BAM because I've brought this op in several threads and now one has anything to say about it. It appears to be a new concept for the Arminian and other synergists. If that's true then the proper response is not to discuss/debate/argue with me, but to open the Bible and study the covenants. Perhaps that is why silence has ensued. If so, then I commend those doing so. The issue I raised was not about WHEN Noah was brought into a covenant relationship with God, but dealt with His salvation from the flood. His salvation from the flood clearly required God's grace for God did not owe it to him, but it also required he build an ark ....synergy. For Noah to remain in a covenant relationship and remain in God's grace and be saved, then Noah HAD to build the ark or he would have been spiritually lost. Building the ark therefore was as much a part of Noah's spiritual salvation as his walking with God. Nowhere does the text say God forced Noah to be in a covenant relationship with Him or forced Noah to walk with Him or forced Noah to build an ark. Nowhere in the NT is it taught that one is first in a NT covenant relationship with God before one obeys God. One is lost and remains lost until one first obeys so there is synergy........ Acts 2, the Jews were lost, God did not owe them salvation but God graciously gave them instructions on how to be saved (repent and be baptized) but it took their obedience to those instructions for them to be saved, to be in a NT covenant relationship. They could not save themselves apart from those instructions, yet God would not save them if they disobeyed His instructions...it took BOTH......synergy. Which has nothing to do with the issue that had been raised before you showed up and raised your issue. His salvation from the flood was entirely and solely dependent upon his having been brought into a covenant relationship by God long before he complied or obeyed with anything God commanded and not once did God ask him if he wanted to do any of it. Yes, it is taught one is first in a covenant relationship with God before one obeys God. It's taught in scripture from beginning to end. No matter what choice of Noah's you choose to cite, it will have occurred in the context of the already existing covenant. Pick one. Any one of them. Make sure the scripture actually states he made a choice before you cite it, though. Don't assume it. Look for the choices explicitly specified in scripture.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 15:51:27 GMT -8
I've already addressed this. Please take greater care to read what is posted so as not to make comments that have already been addressed. Any obedience on Noah's part came after he was brought into the God-initiated covenant by God, and that happened without his being asked. There are many other concerns but this one very real matter of the covenant relationship's a priori establishment is one often ignored by synergists. It's got you on the defensive AND reading things into scripture that scripture does not actually state. IF you'll open you Bible and read what is stated and accept what is written exactly as written without assuming either Calvin or Arminius you will find what I have posted is correct. It applies to every single covenant in the Bible. The scriptures' report of choice and obedience come after the establishment of the covenants. There are no exceptions to the rule and even if there was an exception, we don't form sound doctrine on the exceptions to the rules. The New Testament makes it very clear the Old Testament Covenants were related to the covenant we now have in Christ. The pattern established from the beginning to the end of the entire Bible is the covenant, not just choosing and calling on God's part, is always first established. Then and only then does God ask about the human's choice. Take some time and read through some of the other threads in the soteriology-related boards here in BAM because I've brought this op in several threads and now one has anything to say about it. It appears to be a new concept for the Arminian and other synergists. If that's true then the proper response is not to discuss/debate/argue with me, but to open the Bible and study the covenants. Perhaps that is why silence has ensued. If so, then I commend those doing so. They could not save themselves apart from those instructions, yet God would not save them if they disobeyed His instructions...it took BOTH......synergy. Wouldn't have mattered whether he obeyed or disobeyed if he hadn't already been in the covenant. The covenant came first and when it came it did not come with a consultation. Only after it was established was obedience relevant. What you're describing isn't synergistic salvation; it monergistic. What you're describing is obedience after the instigation of the covenant. Synergism teaches collaboration is required to establish the covenant, not in response to it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 15:54:23 GMT -8
It does not. Go back and re-read the posts and read them as many times as it takes for you to CORRECTLY understand because no one is saying what you apparently think they are saying and you're arguing against a red herring you created. I defined the monergist position. There is no excuse for anyone to post as if that hasn't happened. Monergism simply asserts God alone converts and He does so based solely on His own will and His own purpose(s) and not anything having to do with the creature He alone is saving. It is only after the sinfully dead and enslaved creature is regenerated, or converted from life to death, or born anew from above, that the creature is able to make any collaborative choice with God and assert his will with any degree of influence and power by the Holy Spirit. You posted (my emp) " Yes, the Genesis 6 text does state, "Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD," and it does state, "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God," but not once does scripture ever state, "of his own free will." If Noah did not walk with God of his own free will or obey God's command of his own free will then he was FORCED into doing those things. If God alone converts and where man has no choice in this, then God is FORCING conversion upon men for men have no other choice than what God is forcing upon them. Monergism has God forcing conversion, regeneration upon man where man has no choice. If God wants "Joe" to be converted and regenerated, then can Joe decide for himself he does not want to be converted/regenerated? If not then monergism takes away free will. You cannot have God doing everything while man can do nothing yet claim man has a choice in what God is doing with him. Nope. You don't get to do that. The fact is not once does scripture ever state, " of his own free will." That is an undeniable fact. Before you start arguing with that argument you either acknowledge it as the fact of scripture or you provide the place scripture does STATE " of his own free will." Start with what is stated. Not with what you'd like to infer by ignoring what is and is not stated.
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Post by gomer on Sept 14, 2022 4:17:25 GMT -8
You posted (my emp) " Yes, the Genesis 6 text does state, "Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD," and it does state, "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God," but not once does scripture ever state, "of his own free will." If Noah did not walk with God of his own free will or obey God's command of his own free will then he was FORCED into doing those things. If God alone converts and where man has no choice in this, then God is FORCING conversion upon men for men have no other choice than what God is forcing upon them. Monergism has God forcing conversion, regeneration upon man where man has no choice. If God wants "Joe" to be converted and regenerated, then can Joe decide for himself he does not want to be converted/regenerated? If not then monergism takes away free will. You cannot have God doing everything while man can do nothing yet claim man has a choice in what God is doing with him. Nope. You don't get to do that. The fact is not once does scripture ever state, " of his own free will." That is an undeniable fact. Before you start arguing with that argument you either acknowledge it as the fact of scripture or you provide the place scripture does STATE " of his own free will." Start with what is stated. Not with what you'd like to infer by ignoring what is and is not stated. You claim there was no free will involved therefore where does it state Noah had no free will and was forced by God to walk with God and forced to build the ark??? You posted " monergism does NOT negate, deny, disregard, or otherwise dispute the volitional agency of any human" yet you argue what Noah did was not of his own free will then the only conclusion is that he was forced by God having no free will. God monergistically forced Noah to walk with him and forced Noah to obey in building the ark. How can there be free will if God is monergistically foecing things on man with man having no choice about those things? God created man is His own image meaning men share certain non-supernatural traits, but share traits such as the ability to reason, to be creative, to love and hate and a free will. It would make no sense to have men to choose (Joshua 24:15) if there is no free will. Matt 23:37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" If there was no free will involved here with these Jews as you claim there was no free will in Gen 6 with Noah, then we have God forcing these Jews to reject Christ (the Jews "would not") while at the same time you have God desiring these Jews "would" accept Christ creating a nonsensical, contradiction within God. Why command men to believe or command Noah to build an ark if man has no free will to even obey the command but man can only do what God forces upon man? Such an idea makes God culpable for all the evil man does making God evil, the author of evil.
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Post by gomer on Sept 14, 2022 4:33:01 GMT -8
They could not save themselves apart from those instructions, yet God would not save them if they disobeyed His instructions...it took BOTH......synergy. Wouldn't have mattered whether he obeyed or disobeyed if he hadn't already been in the covenant. The covenant came first and when it came it did not come with a consultation. Only after it was established was obedience relevant. What you're describing isn't synergistic salvation; it monergistic. What you're describing is obedience after the instigation of the covenant. Synergism teaches collaboration is required to establish the covenant, not in response to it. You posted " The covenant came first and when it came it did not come with a consultation." First, where does the Bible state that Noah initially getting into a covenant relationship with God was done monergistically where Noah had no free will in the matter but was forced into that covenant having no choice? There is no example nor is it taught in the NT of people being forced against their will and apart from obedience into a NT covenant relationship with Christ. Rebellious, unrighteous, disobedient men are not randomly chosen, then unconditionally apart from obedience and against their will forced into a NT covenant relationship with Christ. Secondly, the issue I raised was specifically about his salvation from the flood which you avoid dealing with. The facts given, it took BOTH God's grace and Noah's obedience for him to be saved from the flood (synergism) and to remain in God's grace. From the information given in Gen 6, Noah would have synergistically first gotten into a relationship with God by God's grace and Noah walking with (obeying) God and Noah remained in God's grace and remained in that covenant by synergism of God's grace and Noah's obedience in building the ark. You have yet to prove from Scripture Noah had no free will in any of this this, that it was all forced upon him by God monergistically.
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Post by civic on Sept 14, 2022 4:43:42 GMT -8
You posted (my emp) " Yes, the Genesis 6 text does state, "Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD," and it does state, "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God," but not once does scripture ever state, "of his own free will." If Noah did not walk with God of his own free will or obey God's command of his own free will then he was FORCED into doing those things. If God alone converts and where man has no choice in this, then God is FORCING conversion upon men for men have no other choice than what God is forcing upon them. Monergism has God forcing conversion, regeneration upon man where man has no choice. If God wants "Joe" to be converted and regenerated, then can Joe decide for himself he does not want to be converted/regenerated? If not then monergism takes away free will. You cannot have God doing everything while man can do nothing yet claim man has a choice in what God is doing with him. Nope. You don't get to do that. The fact is not once does scripture ever state, " of his own free will." That is an undeniable fact. Before you start arguing with that argument you either acknowledge it as the fact of scripture or you provide the place scripture does STATE " of his own free will." Start with what is stated. Not with what you'd like to infer by ignoring what is and is not stated. Yet many covenants were conditional in the OT which makes them synergistic.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2022 8:38:40 GMT -8
Wouldn't have mattered whether he obeyed or disobeyed if he hadn't already been in the covenant. The covenant came first and when it came it did not come with a consultation. Only after it was established was obedience relevant. What you're describing isn't synergistic salvation; it monergistic. What you're describing is obedience after the instigation of the covenant. Synergism teaches collaboration is required to establish the covenant, not in response to it. You have yet to prove from Scripture Noah had no free will in any of this this, that it was all forced upon him by God monergistically. I'm not trying to prove Noah didn't have free will. I completely affirm Noah's ability to make choices and obey God. It's irrelevant to my point and the entire venture into Noah's free will is a red herring. It's really, really bad this isn't recognized!!! The covenant into which Noah was brought existed long before Noah was ever born. He could not have possibly chosen whether or not to be a member because he was not then alive to make that choice. When God summoned Noah, and He summoned Noah, He did not ask if Noah wanted to do what was commanded. Noah did choose to obey God but that had nothing to do with God choosing him God calling him, God commanding him, God expecting him to comply, and God determining beforehand Noah would be the guy who would build the ark and fulfill his little teeny intsy bitsy role in the huge ginormous covenant God established before the world was created. Your entire dissent is irrelevant of the point being made. And for the record: God often compels and forces people to do things they don't want to do, things the willing choose to do in spite of their desire not to do them. No one asked Pharoah if he wanted to be Pharaoh. No one asked him if he wanted to be the guy who would rule over the loss of all Egypt's wealth, an entire generation of their eldest sons. No one asked him if he wanted to die. He was THE GUY who would be THAT GUY when the appointed time arrived! It was a time that had been decided upon by God generations before that particular Pharoah was ever born. He did not have a choice but every single choice he made conspired to make him that guy God decided he would be. The same is true of Moses. The same is true of Paul. And all that is being missed when the focus is on the creature's volition.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2022 9:23:26 GMT -8
Nope. You don't get to do that. The fact is not once does scripture ever state, " of his own free will." That is an undeniable fact. Before you start arguing with that argument you either acknowledge it as the fact of scripture or you provide the place scripture does STATE " of his own free will." Start with what is stated. Not with what you'd like to infer by ignoring what is and is not stated. Yet many covenants were conditional in the OT which makes them synergistic. No, the covenant itself was not conditional. The elements of the covenant were conditional. When God initiated a covenant, He put forth a rather blunt dichotomy: if you do one set of things then X will ensue and if you do another set of things then Y will ensue. None of them were asked to join and none were permitted to leave. They had only two options: obey and live or disobey and die. God didn't choose, call, declare, or impose the covenant(s) on the Amorites, Jebusites, are Lower Slobovianites. He called, chose, declared, and imposed the covenant on Adam. On Noah.. On Abraham. On Moses. On David. And by extension...... .... every single one of us!And we should be thankful He did so because absent His extending His grace we'd all be on the other side of the covenant: dead and headed for destruction. Synergism is possible only if the covenant aspects are ignored or neglected. Every single word written about Abraham's descendants (bloodline or those by promise) occurs INESCAPABLY in the context of the covenant initiated by God long before most of us were born. Adam did not ask God to put the forbidden tree in the garden. God planted the garden God wanted planted and He made the humans the way He wanted them made and He then gave them a command with two options, and He NEVER asked them if they wanted to be part of it. Only AFTER all those conditions were already established did He set Adam (and Eve) "free" to think, feel, choose, and act. The exact same conditions exist in ever later exposition of the covenant. Noah wasn't asked. He was chosen, called, and then commanded and there wasn't any debate about him doing or some other guy. Abram, Isaac, and Jacob? ALL the same thing. Moses did argue with God. He tried to get out of it. There is not a single word in the account before the burning bush even remotely indicating Moses what the option to decline or that there was any other person but him. His choices came afterwards, not before. You'll note, if you do the study the word "covenant" is never plural in the OT. There's only one covenant. We Christians abuse this fact quite often. The only plural use of covenants in the OT is in Hosea 4 and that's a reference to human covenants, not God's singular covenant. There are only two plural uses of "covenants" in the NT and one of them (Gal. 3) is stated as an allegory, and indicative of the kind of covenant that ensues from the flesh, and the other (Eph. 2) is a reference to the repeated promises God made each time He introduced the covenant to the different figures of Jewish history. Look it up and verify that for yourselves. Much earlier in one of the threads you or someone else cited the Joshua 24 passage as an example of what you're talking about in this post: the conditional aspects of the covenant. At the time Josh. 24 was asserted I noted the fact that episode occurred looonng after the covenant was established. They were not given a choice in order to establish the covenant. They were given a choice as a consequence of the covenant already having been established. They had entered the promised Promised Land and they were about to eradicate everyone living in the land. All those people that would soon be slaughtered were not given a choice. They were not the covenant people of God. Their destiny was destruction..... because of the covenant God had made with Abraham before a single person in Joshua 24 was even born. And, like Adam before them, they did not wholly obey God and they suffered as a consequence. It's not until the New Testament that we learn it was never about bloodline and always about promise. It was never about negotiation; it was always about promise. You and I did not negotiate a promise with God. He made promises to us before any of us drew our first breath, just as He'd made a promise to all those he'd end up destroying before they drew breath. Genesis 2:15-17 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Obey and live. Disobey and die. That was the covenant and the only choice they had came after they were planted in the covenant relationship...... which we later find out is all about Jesus (1 Pet. 1:20). Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. The law of sin and death = if you obey then you live and if you disobey then you die. And, as everyone already knows, the entire paradigm changed the moment Adam disobeyed God because at that exact moment sin entered the world and death came to ALL humans because all would sin. God did not ask anyone if they wanted it that way. Humans have choices but they do not have any and all choices. Romans 8:1-9 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Regeneration precedes faith because the person who has only the flesh and does not have the Spirit has only a mind of flesh that does not and cannot please God. Just as the first Adam changed the entire creation for the worse, the Last Adam changed the entire creation for those in him. We don't suffer the same death the unregenerate suffer. We all die. That's part of God's design. We didn't have a choice. We have choices that follow God's designs and it is only after having been brought into those designs that ay choices are even offered. Even then the options are stipulated by God. That is the conditional nature of the covenants. However, there is another VERY important aspect to the conditional aspect of the covenant because the conditions aren't actually upon us. If you're familiar with the vision Abraham had of the sundered carcasses and the imagery of the suzerain covenant, then you know God placed Himself, not Abraham, as the one whose life would be forfeit if the covenant was disobeyed. The matter had already been decided long before Abraham was ever asked, long before Abraham was ever born. All the Old Testament examples of the covenant are foreshadows of Christ and one of the undeniable and irrefutable but often neglected aspects of the covenant are as I have stated in these many posts: God initiates them, and He chooses and calls whoever He wills into the covenants without asking them beforehand, and it is only after that happens that any choices are given. So when a synergist selects a verse from an event occurring after the establishment of the covenant and asserts that episode as one of volitional saliency, he is reading scripture eisegetically, not exegetically. He's ignored all the context that renders the episode and gives it full meaning. It's a very risky thing spiritually, imo, because it denies the work of God.
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Post by praiseyeshua on Oct 6, 2022 5:20:12 GMT -8
Yet many covenants were conditional in the OT which makes them synergistic. Regeneration precedes faith because the person who has only the flesh and does not have the Spirit has only a mind of flesh that does not and cannot please God. Your appeal is false. There is no necessity to your claim. 1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? Babies in Christ can not please God. Babies in Christ are carnal. Yet, they are in Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2022 6:52:03 GMT -8
Read something other than the KJV (there is no "carnal" in the Greek), and do not put the words like " can not," imply words like "only" in where they don't exist, or ignore context. Do not treat the unregenerate as if they are regenerate, nor those outside Christ as if they are in Christ. There are huge differences between the two groups. All of those practices are unscriptural. My appeal is correct, the statement is necessary and abusing 1 Cor. 3:1-3 doesn't change those facts.
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Post by civic on Dec 14, 2022 19:54:30 GMT -8
I've already addressed this. Please take greater care to read what is posted so as not to make comments that have already been addressed. Any obedience on Noah's part came after he was brought into the God-initiated covenant by God, and that happened without his being asked. There are many other concerns but this one very real matter of the covenant relationship's a priori establishment is one often ignored by synergists. It's got you on the defensive AND reading things into scripture that scripture does not actually state. IF you'll open you Bible and read what is stated and accept what is written exactly as written without assuming either Calvin or Arminius you will find what I have posted is correct. It applies to every single covenant in the Bible. The scriptures' report of choice and obedience come after the establishment of the covenants. There are no exceptions to the rule and even if there was an exception, we don't form sound doctrine on the exceptions to the rules. The New Testament makes it very clear the Old Testament Covenants were related to the covenant we now have in Christ. The pattern established from the beginning to the end of the entire Bible is the covenant, not just choosing and calling on God's part, is always first established. Then and only then does God ask about the human's choice. Take some time and read through some of the other threads in the soteriology-related boards here in BAM because I've brought this op in several threads and now one has anything to say about it. It appears to be a new concept for the Arminian and other synergists. If that's true then the proper response is not to discuss/debate/argue with me, but to open the Bible and study the covenants. Perhaps that is why silence has ensued. If so, then I commend those doing so. The issue I raised was not about WHEN Noah was brought into a covenant relationship with God, but dealt with His salvation from the flood. His salvation from the flood clearly required God's grace for God did not owe it to him, but it also required he build an ark ....synergy. For Noah to remain in a covenant relationship and remain in God's grace and be saved, then Noah HAD to build the ark or he would have been spiritually lost. Building the ark therefore was as much a part of Noah's spiritual salvation as his walking with God. Nowhere does the text say God forced Noah to be in a covenant relationship with Him or forced Noah to walk with Him or forced Noah to build an ark. Nowhere in the NT is it taught that one is first in a NT covenant relationship with God before one obeys God. One is lost and remains lost until one first obeys so there is synergy........ Acts 2, the Jews were lost, God did not owe them salvation but God graciously gave them instructions on how to be saved (repent and be baptized) but it took their obedience to those instructions for them to be saved, to be in a NT covenant relationship. They could not save themselves apart from those instructions, yet God would not save them if they disobeyed His instructions...it took BOTH......synergy. The new birth comes from God as per John 1:13 and faith comes from man . Man believes , God saves. Jesus said no less than 13 times in the gospels “ your faith “ has saved you , not the faith He gave them . So salvation is synergistic.
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