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Post by makesends on Dec 15, 2022 16:45:40 GMT -8
The issue I raised was not about WHEN Noah was brought into a covenant relationship with God, but dealt with His salvation from the flood. His salvation from the flood clearly required God's grace for God did not owe it to him, but it also required he build an ark ....synergy. For Noah to remain in a covenant relationship and remain in God's grace and be saved, then Noah HAD to build the ark or he would have been spiritually lost. Building the ark therefore was as much a part of Noah's spiritual salvation as his walking with God. Nowhere does the text say God forced Noah to be in a covenant relationship with Him or forced Noah to walk with Him or forced Noah to build an ark. Nowhere in the NT is it taught that one is first in a NT covenant relationship with God before one obeys God. One is lost and remains lost until one first obeys so there is synergy........ Acts 2, the Jews were lost, God did not owe them salvation but God graciously gave them instructions on how to be saved (repent and be baptized) but it took their obedience to those instructions for them to be saved, to be in a NT covenant relationship. They could not save themselves apart from those instructions, yet God would not save them if they disobeyed His instructions...it took BOTH......synergy. The new birth comes from God as per John 1:13 and faith comes from man . Man believes , God saves. Jesus said no less than 13 times in the gospels “ your faith “ has saved you , not the faith He gave them . So salvation is synergistic. Monergism doesn't mean that man is not thoroughly involved. It only says that salvation is not BY man's involvement. Synergism doesn't suggest mere 'cooperation', but an increase, or improvement or completion, of the result of God's work, by man's work added to it. Salvific faith is rather obviously not that of man's effort, though it exhaust him. Only God himself —the Holy Spirit— can produce this kind of faith. But yes, it is produced within the man, and thus is 'his faith'. Something just occurred to me to mention, haha! And no it is not exactly an applicable parallel: I ask my dog to help me up from the couch, and I have trained him when I ask, to come and let me grab his collar, and he makes himself strong against my downward pressure. He doesn't know it would be easier for me to get up if he were not 'helping'. It pleases him very much to help me. He has that 'working dog' mentality. |
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Post by civic on Jan 28, 2023 13:06:27 GMT -8
The new birth comes from God as per John 1:13 and faith comes from man . Man believes , God saves. Jesus said no less than 13 times in the gospels “ your faith “ has saved you , not the faith He gave them . So salvation is synergistic. Monergism doesn't mean that man is not thoroughly involved. It only says that salvation is not BY man's involvement. Synergism doesn't suggest mere 'cooperation', but an increase, or improvement or completion, of the result of God's work, by man's work added to it. Salvific faith is rather obviously not that of man's effort, though it exhaust him. Only God himself —the Holy Spirit— can produce this kind of faith. But yes, it is produced within the man, and thus is 'his faith'. Something just occurred to me to mention, haha! And no it is not exactly an applicable parallel: I ask my dog to help me up from the couch, and I have trained him when I ask, to come and let me grab his collar, and he makes himself strong against my downward pressure. He doesn't know it would be easier for me to get up if he were not 'helping'. It pleases him very much to help me. He has that 'working dog' mentality. We see faith differently. I see it like Jesus said on numerous occasion that it was their faith that made them well or saved them . Not the faith He gave to them or enabled them with that saved them . |
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Post by makesends on Feb 11, 2023 10:14:29 GMT -8
Monergism doesn't mean that man is not thoroughly involved. It only says that salvation is not BY man's involvement. Synergism doesn't suggest mere 'cooperation', but an increase, or improvement or completion, of the result of God's work, by man's work added to it. Salvific faith is rather obviously not that of man's effort, though it exhaust him. Only God himself —the Holy Spirit— can produce this kind of faith. But yes, it is produced within the man, and thus is 'his faith'. Something just occurred to me to mention, haha! And no it is not exactly an applicable parallel: I ask my dog to help me up from the couch, and I have trained him when I ask, to come and let me grab his collar, and he makes himself strong against my downward pressure. He doesn't know it would be easier for me to get up if he were not 'helping'. It pleases him very much to help me. He has that 'working dog' mentality. We see faith differently. I see it like Jesus said on numerous occasion that it was their faith that made them well or saved them . Not the faith He gave to them or enabled them with that saved them . Yet I have never heard it explained how THEIR faith —if not produced in them by God— is capable of accomplishing anything the lost cannot accomplish. It cannot be strong and consistent enough to commit to anything with integrity; it cannot be knowledgeable enough of what is being committed to nor wise enough to know how to commit to it; it doesn't even have the strength of will to effect the commitment; and it doesn't have the position of such authority as to work synergistically with the will of God. |
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Post by civic on Feb 11, 2023 10:30:41 GMT -8
We see faith differently. I see it like Jesus said on numerous occasion that it was their faith that made them well or saved them . Not the faith He gave to them or enabled them with that saved them . Yet I have never heard it explained how THEIR faith —if not produced in them by God— is capable of accomplishing anything the lost cannot accomplish. It cannot be strong and consistent enough to commit to anything with integrity; it cannot be knowledgeable enough of what is being committed to nor wise enough to know how to commit to it; it doesn't even have the strength of will to effect the commitment; and it doesn't have the position of such authority as to work synergistically with the will of God. Saved by faith below. What do these passages even mean or how can they make sense if man does not exercise personal faith ? Romans 10:8-10 The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved 1 Corinthians 15:1-2;17 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Romans 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Luke 5:20 Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Luke 8:12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Romans 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; |
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Post by makesends on Feb 11, 2023 20:48:30 GMT -8
Yet I have never heard it explained how THEIR faith —if not produced in them by God— is capable of accomplishing anything the lost cannot accomplish. It cannot be strong and consistent enough to commit to anything with integrity; it cannot be knowledgeable enough of what is being committed to nor wise enough to know how to commit to it; it doesn't even have the strength of will to effect the commitment; and it doesn't have the position of such authority as to work synergistically with the will of God. Saved by faith below. What do these passages even mean or how can they make sense if man does not exercise personal faith ? Romans 10:8-10 The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved 1 Corinthians 15:1-2;17 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Romans 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Luke 5:20 Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Luke 8:12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Romans 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; You said, "Saved by faith below. What do these passages even mean or how can they make sense if man does not exercise personal faith ?"What makes you assume it is NOT personal faith if it is generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the man to whom it is personal? And nobody is saying that he does not exercise it. The indwelling Spirit of God is the whole power of the faith. |
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Post by civic on Feb 12, 2023 5:39:33 GMT -8
Saved by faith below. What do these passages even mean or how can they make sense if man does not exercise personal faith ? Romans 10:8-10 The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved 1 Corinthians 15:1-2;17 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Romans 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Luke 5:20 Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Luke 8:12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Romans 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; You said, "Saved by faith below. What do these passages even mean or how can they make sense if man does not exercise personal faith ?"What makes you assume it is NOT personal faith if it is generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the man to whom it is personal? And nobody is saying that he does not exercise it. The indwelling Spirit of God is the whole power of the faith. Then its not ones personal faith it becomes Gods faith. Not once did Jesus say below to the unsaved that it was the faith God gave them which saved them. Jesus said every time that it was their faith which saved them and made them well. Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you. Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace. Luke 8:48 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace." Luke 17:19 Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!" Luke 18:42 "Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you." Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour. Matthew 9:2 Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven. Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour. Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you." Matthew 15:28 "O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Mark 5:34 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction." Mark 10:52 "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road. John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house. hope this helps !!! |
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Post by makesends on Feb 12, 2023 12:12:38 GMT -8
You said, "Saved by faith below. What do these passages even mean or how can they make sense if man does not exercise personal faith ?"What makes you assume it is NOT personal faith if it is generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the man to whom it is personal? And nobody is saying that he does not exercise it. The indwelling Spirit of God is the whole power of the faith. Then its not ones personal faith it becomes Gods faith. Not once did Jesus say below to the unsaved that it was the faith God gave them which saved them. Jesus said every time that it was their faith which saved them and made them well. Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you. Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace. Luke 8:48 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace." Luke 17:19 Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!" Luke 18:42 "Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you." Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour. Matthew 9:2 Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven. Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour. Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you." Matthew 15:28 "O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Mark 5:34 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction." Mark 10:52 "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road. John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house. hope this helps !!! Do you have any evidence at all that we are able to do anything good, and in this context, to generate or produce anything good, on our own, apart from God? "Apart from me you can do nothing." And once you've shown that we can, then logically demonstrate the ability of man to do anything comparable to the enormity of such a task, as to produce saving faith. We hardly even know what it is that we are committing to. You would have us earning something by the integrity and strength of our faith. You place it into the realm of degrees, instead of the realm of 'kind' of thing that it is, and if it is a matter of degrees, then it is measured by degrees and falls short. To me, to claim to have the power to produce such a faith, apart from God doing it in us, is a blatant affirmation of Self-Determination —a declaration of independence from God. You said, "Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you." —If Paul once taught that faith was given, or any other New Testament writer said so, then can that equate to 'Jesus did'? I'm guessing you know where I would go next. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 14, 2023 5:47:00 GMT -8
Do you have any evidence at all that we are able to do anything good, and in this context, to generate or produce anything good, on our own, apart from God? "Apart from me you can do nothing." And once you've shown that we can, then logically demonstrate the ability of man to do anything comparable to the enormity of such a task, as to produce saving faith. We hardly even know what it is that we are committing to. You would have us earning something by the integrity and strength of our faith. You place it into the realm of degrees, instead of the realm of 'kind' of thing that it is, and if it is a matter of degrees, then it is measured by degrees and falls short. To me, to claim to have the power to produce such a faith, apart from God doing it in us, is a blatant affirmation of Self-Determination —a declaration of independence from God. You said, "Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you." —If Paul once taught that faith was given, or any other New Testamentwriter said so, then can that equate to 'Jesus did'? I'm guessing you know where I would go next. Here are the answers to YOUR requirements. 1. I can name many many GOOD things a unregenerate person can do. Are you seriously saying that lost men can't do good? How about LOVE. How about KINDNESS. How about giving their lives for friends? Jesus said that was the greatest love a person could do. Is to give your life for friends or even strangers. Think policemen. Fireman... etc. 2. I remind you that there are degrees to faith. Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Levels to faith. Our faith increases as we accept certain things. It is the SMALLEST of faith that begins the journey toward God. SMALL faith. It is very easy to see where a person can simple believe the Gospel message they hear. The message that is preached from faithful men to unfaithful people. Faith to flowering faith. 3. Faith is most certainly a gift. Faith wouldn't even exist without the gift of faith to humanity. Just like rain. Just like sunshine. Just like oxygen that gives human life. The issue is with those men that readily accept they've received faith while DENYING it to other men...... just like themselves. WHY do you do such a thing? Do you not know people are listening? They hear what you teach and walk away from God. There are people in this world that believe what you teach. They are waiting for God to overpower them. To "drag" them to Jesus. I don't expect you to deal with these answers. I expect you to ignore them. Every single hardcore monogerist I've ever meet does just that. When pushed, they fold. Salvation is both Monogistic and Synergistic. It is false dichotomy to require a choice between the two. |
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Post by civic on Feb 14, 2023 7:06:22 GMT -8
Do you have any evidence at all that we are able to do anything good, and in this context, to generate or produce anything good, on our own, apart from God? "Apart from me you can do nothing." And once you've shown that we can, then logically demonstrate the ability of man to do anything comparable to the enormity of such a task, as to produce saving faith. We hardly even know what it is that we are committing to. You would have us earning something by the integrity and strength of our faith. You place it into the realm of degrees, instead of the realm of 'kind' of thing that it is, and if it is a matter of degrees, then it is measured by degrees and falls short. To me, to claim to have the power to produce such a faith, apart from God doing it in us, is a blatant affirmation of Self-Determination —a declaration of independence from God. You said, "Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you." —If Paul once taught that faith was given, or any other New Testamentwriter said so, then can that equate to 'Jesus did'? I'm guessing you know where I would go next. Here are the answers to YOUR requirements. 1. I can name many many GOOD things a unregenerate person can do. Are you seriously saying that lost men can't do good? How about LOVE. How about KINDNESS. How about giving their lives for friends? Jesus said that was the greatest love a person could do. Is to give your life for friends or even strangers. Think policemen. Fireman... etc. 2. I remind you that there are degrees to faith. Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Levels to faith. Our faith increases as we accept certain things. It is the SMALLEST of faith that begins the journey toward God. SMALL faith. It is very easy to see where a person can simple believe the Gospel message they hear. The message that is preached from faithful men to unfaithful people. Faith to flowering faith. 3. Faith is most certainly a gift. Faith would even exist with the gift of faith to humanity. Just like rain. Just like sunshine. Just like oxygen that gives human life. The issue is with those men that readily accept they've received faith while DENYING it to other men just like themselves. WHY do you do such a thing? Do you not know people are listening? They hear what you teach and walk away from God. There are people in this world that believe what you teach. They are waiting for God to overpower them. To "drag" them to Jesus. I don't expect you to deal with these answers. I expect you to ignore them. Every single hardcore monogerist I've ever meet does just that. When pushed, they fold. Salvation is both Monogistic and Synergistic. It is false dichotomy to require a choice between the two. I completely agree with the above. Salvation is of, by, through and from the Lord yet man is responsible to place their faith in Him, the gospel of salvation. Its a two way street which begins with God and man is responsible to receive the gospel by faith. God draws and convicts and man responds in faith. |
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 14, 2023 12:31:37 GMT -8
civicTozer's book "The Pursuit of God" Layes it out very clearly in the 1st chapter" Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which, briefly stated, means that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man. Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him. We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. “No man can come to me,” said our Lord, “except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44), and it is by this prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him. All the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: “Thy right hand upholdeth me.” Also The MASTER'S INDWELLING by ANDREW MURRAY... Chapter 4. Entrance Into Rest. Hebrews 4: 1.—Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Hebrews 4: 11.—Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. I want, in the simplest way possible, to answer the question: "How does a man enter into that rest?" and to point out the simple steps that he takes, all included in the one act of surrender and faith.
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 14, 2023 20:36:33 GMT -8
civic Tozer's book "The Pursuit of God" Layes it out very clearly in the 1st chapter" Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which, briefly stated, means that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man. Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him. We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. “No man can come to me,” said our Lord, “except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44), and it is by this prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him. All the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: “Thy right hand upholdeth me.” Also The MASTER'S INDWELLING by ANDREW MURRAY... Chapter 4. Entrance Into Rest. Hebrews 4: 1.—Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Hebrews 4: 11.—Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. I want, in the simplest way possible, to answer the question: "How does a man enter into that rest?" and to point out the simple steps that he takes, all included in the one act of surrender and faith.
Jesus came into the world to seek and save sinners. The Incarnation was all about Jesus FIRST seeking mankind. 1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. |
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Post by Parker on Feb 15, 2023 6:04:22 GMT -8
civic Tozer's book "The Pursuit of God" Layes it out very clearly in the 1st chapter" Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which, briefly stated, means that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man. Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him. We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. “No man can come to me,” said our Lord, “except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44), and it is by this prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him. All the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: “Thy right hand upholdeth me.” Also The MASTER'S INDWELLING by ANDREW MURRAY... Chapter 4. Entrance Into Rest. Hebrews 4: 1.—Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Hebrews 4: 11.—Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. I want, in the simplest way possible, to answer the question: "How does a man enter into that rest?" and to point out the simple steps that he takes, all included in the one act of surrender and faith.
Jesus came into the world to seek and save sinners. The Incarnation was all about Jesus FIRST seeking mankind. 1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. No doubt about it, It's in the Bible. John 10:10 "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full” Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." See more: Why Jesus Came |
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 15, 2023 6:22:27 GMT -8
civic Tozer's book "The Pursuit of God" Layes it out very clearly in the 1st chapter" Christian theology teaches the doctrine of prevenient grace, which, briefly stated, means that before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man. Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him. We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. “No man can come to me,” said our Lord, “except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44), and it is by this prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him. All the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: “Thy right hand upholdeth me.” Also The MASTER'S INDWELLING by ANDREW MURRAY... Chapter 4. Entrance Into Rest. Hebrews 4: 1.—Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Hebrews 4: 11.—Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. I want, in the simplest way possible, to answer the question: "How does a man enter into that rest?" and to point out the simple steps that he takes, all included in the one act of surrender and faith.
Jesus came into the world to seek and save sinners. The Incarnation was all about Jesus FIRST seeking mankind. 1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. Tozer has that covered also: God’s Pursuit of Man / A. W. Tozer. Here we acknowledge (and there is fear and wonder in the thought) the essential unity of God’s nature, the timeless persistence of His changeless being throughout eternity and time. Here we begin to see and feel the eternal continuum. Begin where we will, God is there first. He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, which was, and which is and which is to come, the Almighty. If we grope back to the farthest limits of thought where imagination touches the pre-creation void, we shall find God there. In one unified present glance He comprehends all things from everlasting, and the flutter of a seraph’s wing a thousand ages hence is seen by Him now without moving His eyes. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 15, 2023 12:59:54 GMT -8
Jesus came into the world to seek and save sinners. The Incarnation was all about Jesus FIRST seeking mankind. 1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. Tozer has that covered also: God’s Pursuit of Man / A. W. Tozer. Here we acknowledge (and there is fear and wonder in the thought) the essential unity of God’s nature, the timeless persistence of His changeless being throughout eternity and time. Here we begin to see and feel the eternal continuum. Begin where we will, God is there first. He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, which was, and which is and which is to come, the Almighty. If we grope back to the farthest limits of thought where imagination touches the pre-creation void, we shall find God there. In one unified present glance He comprehends all things from everlasting, and the flutter of a seraph’s wing a thousand ages hence is seen by Him now without moving His eyes.Just to make sure we understand one another. I am saying that Jesus came seeking all men. So when anyone declare that God must FIRST seek the sinner, It is evidence that Jesus has already did just that. There is absolutely nothing from God preventing a sinner from seeking Him. Jesus has already done everything required for any person to come to Him. There is nothing left for God to do. To be honest, there are many things I don't like from Tozer. |
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 16, 2023 5:51:23 GMT -8
praiseyeshuaI like what Paul says. “Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified”: Paul’s Testimony of Christ In Corinth, in the early fifties of the first century A.D., Paul faced opponents within the Church who felt that the way to understand God and the vicissitudes of mortality was through the use of philosophy or, as Paul puts it, the “enticing words of man’s wisdom” (1 Corinthians 2:4). It is in response to this situation in Corinth that Paul makes the following statement in 1 Corinthians 2:1–2: “And I, brethren, when I came to you, I came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” Jesus did it all by hanging on a cross.
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