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Post by civic on Feb 16, 2023 12:43:46 GMT -8
Then its not ones personal faith it becomes Gods faith. Not once did Jesus say below to the unsaved that it was the faith God gave them which saved them. Jesus said every time that it was their faith which saved them and made them well. Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you. Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace. Luke 8:48 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace." Luke 17:19 Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!" Luke 18:42 "Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you." Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour. Matthew 9:2 Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven. Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour. Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you." Matthew 15:28 "O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Mark 5:34 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction." Mark 10:52 "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road. John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house. hope this helps !!! Do you have any evidence at all that we are able to do anything good, and in this context, to generate or produce anything good, on our own, apart from God? "Apart from me you can do nothing." And once you've shown that we can, then logically demonstrate the ability of man to do anything comparable to the enormity of such a task, as to produce saving faith. We hardly even know what it is that we are committing to. You would have us earning something by the integrity and strength of our faith. You place it into the realm of degrees, instead of the realm of 'kind' of thing that it is, and if it is a matter of degrees, then it is measured by degrees and falls short. To me, to claim to have the power to produce such a faith, apart from God doing it in us, is a blatant affirmation of Self-Determination —a declaration of independence from God. You said, "Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you." —If Paul once taught that faith was given, or any other New Testament writer said so, then can that equate to 'Jesus did'? I'm guessing you know where I would go next. You are making a false dichotomy argument with good. Faith is not in the works or good categories. It opposes them and we are saved by our own personal faith/ trust in the gospel of Christ. Faith is never once in scripture said to be given by God for salvation. Grace is given , not faith. The granted faith passages are for those who are already saved in scripture. hope this helps !!! |
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Post by makesends on Mar 27, 2023 20:11:00 GMT -8
Do you have any evidence at all that we are able to do anything good, and in this context, to generate or produce anything good, on our own, apart from God? "Apart from me you can do nothing." And once you've shown that we can, then logically demonstrate the ability of man to do anything comparable to the enormity of such a task, as to produce saving faith. We hardly even know what it is that we are committing to. You would have us earning something by the integrity and strength of our faith. You place it into the realm of degrees, instead of the realm of 'kind' of thing that it is, and if it is a matter of degrees, then it is measured by degrees and falls short. To me, to claim to have the power to produce such a faith, apart from God doing it in us, is a blatant affirmation of Self-Determination —a declaration of independence from God. You said, "Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you." —If Paul once taught that faith was given, or any other New Testament writer said so, then can that equate to 'Jesus did'? I'm guessing you know where I would go next. You are making a false dichotomy argument with good. Faith is not in the works or good categories. It opposes them and we are saved by our own personal faith/ trust in the gospel of Christ. Faith is never once in scripture said to be given by God for salvation. Grace is given , not faith. The granted faith passages are for those who are already saved in scripture. hope this helps !!! As someone else says, Ephesians 2:8 says that Salvation is the gift, not grace and not faith. Yes, I agree salvation is the gift. And it says salvation is by grace through faith. So since salvation is by grace through faith, and salvation is a gift, logically then, grace and faith are also the gift. |
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Post by civic on Apr 10, 2023 7:01:14 GMT -8
You are making a false dichotomy argument with good. Faith is not in the works or good categories. It opposes them and we are saved by our own personal faith/ trust in the gospel of Christ. Faith is never once in scripture said to be given by God for salvation. Grace is given , not faith. The granted faith passages are for those who are already saved in scripture. hope this helps !!! As someone else says, Ephesians 2:8 says that Salvation is the gift, not grace and not faith. Yes, I agree salvation is the gift. And it says salvation is by grace through faith. So since salvation is by grace through faith, and salvation is a gift, logically then, grace and faith are also the gift. Except Jesus never taught that faith was a gift to obtain salvation. He always told those whom He healed and saved it was their faith that saved them, not the faith He gave them which saved them. The Bible must be consistent and not contradict the teachings elsewhere by Jesus. The Apostles teaching must line up with what Jesus taught. They cannot contradict what He taught. This is where we must allow the Scriptures to speak on a given issue not what our systematic theology teaches. I had several calvinists on another forum who were unable to see that distinction and always equivocated their theology with Scripture and they are not one in the same although they can be. |
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Post by TibiasDad on Apr 14, 2023 23:53:07 GMT -8
Yet many covenants were conditional in the OT which makes them synergistic.  No, the covenant itself was not conditional. The elements of the covenant were conditional. When God initiated a covenant, He put forth a rather blunt dichotomy: if you do one set of things then X will ensue and if you do another set of things then Y will ensue. None of them were asked to join and none were permitted to leave. They had only two options: obey and live or disobey and die. God didn't choose, call, declare, or impose the covenant(s) on the Amorites, Jebusites, are Lower Slobovianites. He called, chose, declared, and imposed the covenant on Adam. On Noah.. On Abraham. On Moses. On David. And by extension...... .... every single one of us!And we should be thankful He did so because absent His extending His grace we'd all be on the other side of the covenant: dead and headed for destruction. Synergism is possible only if the covenant aspects are ignored or neglected. Every single word written about Abraham's descendants (bloodline or those by promise) occurs INESCAPABLY in the context of the covenant initiated by God long before most of us were born. Adam did not ask God to put the forbidden tree in the garden. God planted the garden God wanted planted and He made the humans the way He wanted them made and He then gave them a command with two options, and He NEVER asked them if they wanted to be part of it. Only AFTER all those conditions were already established did He set Adam (and Eve) "free" to think, feel, choose, and act. The exact same conditions exist in ever later exposition of the covenant. Noah wasn't asked. He was chosen, called, and then commanded and there wasn't any debate about him doing or some other guy. Abram, Isaac, and Jacob? ALL the same thing. Moses did argue with God. He tried to get out of it. There is not a single word in the account before the burning bush even remotely indicating Moses what the option to decline or that there was any other person but him. His choices came afterwards, not before. You'll note, if you do the study the word "covenant" is never plural in the OT. There's only one covenant. We Christians abuse this fact quite often. The only plural use of covenants in the OT is in Hosea 4 and that's a reference to human covenants, not God's singular covenant. There are only two plural uses of "covenants" in the NT and one of them (Gal. 3) is stated as an allegory, and indicative of the kind of covenant that ensues from the flesh, and the other (Eph. 2) is a reference to the repeated promises God made each time He introduced the covenant to the different figures of Jewish history. Look it up and verify that for yourselves. Much earlier in one of the threads you or someone else cited the Joshua 24 passage as an example of what you're talking about in this post: the conditional aspects of the covenant. At the time Josh. 24 was asserted I noted the fact that episode occurred looonng after the covenant was established. They were not given a choice in order to establish the covenant. They were given a choice as a consequence of the covenant already having been established. They had entered the promised Promised Land and they were about to eradicate everyone living in the land. All those people that would soon be slaughtered were not given a choice. They were not the covenant people of God. Their destiny was destruction..... because of the covenant God had made with Abraham before a single person in Joshua 24 was even born. And, like Adam before them, they did not wholly obey God and they suffered as a consequence. It's not until the New Testament that we learn it was never about bloodline and always about promise. It was never about negotiation; it was always about promise. You and I did not negotiate a promise with God. He made promises to us before any of us drew our first breath, just as He'd made a promise to all those he'd end up destroying before they drew breath. Genesis 2:15-17 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Obey and live. Disobey and die. That was the covenant and the only choice they had came after they were planted in the covenant relationship...... which we later find out is all about Jesus (1 Pet. 1:20). Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. The law of sin and death = if you obey then you live and if you disobey then you die. And, as everyone already knows, the entire paradigm changed the moment Adam disobeyed God because at that exact moment sin entered the world and death came to ALL humans because all would sin. God did not ask anyone if they wanted it that way. Humans have choices but they do not have any and all choices. Romans 8:1-9 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Regeneration precedes faith because the person who has only the flesh and does not have the Spirit has only a mind of flesh that does not and cannot please God. Just as the first Adam changed the entire creation for the worse, the Last Adam changed the entire creation for those in him. We don't suffer the same death the unregenerate suffer. We all die. That's part of God's design. We didn't have a choice. We have choices that follow God's designs and it is only after having been brought into those designs that ay choices are even offered. Even then the options are stipulated by God. That is the conditional nature of the covenants. However, there is another VERY important aspect to the conditional aspect of the covenant because the conditions aren't actually upon us. If you're familiar with the vision Abraham had of the sundered carcasses and the imagery of the suzerain covenant, then you know God placed Himself, not Abraham, as the one whose life would be forfeit if the covenant was disobeyed. The matter had already been decided long before Abraham was ever asked, long before Abraham was ever born. All the Old Testament examples of the covenant are foreshadows of Christ and one of the undeniable and irrefutable but often neglected aspects of the covenant are as I have stated in these many posts: God initiates them, and He chooses and calls whoever He wills into the covenants without asking them beforehand, and it is only after that happens that any choices are given. So when a synergist selects a verse from an event occurring after the establishment of the covenant and asserts that episode as one of volitional saliency, he is reading scripture eisegetically, not exegetically. He's ignored all the context that renders the episode and gives it full meaning. It's a very risky thing spiritually, imo, because it denies the work of God. Josheb said: “No, the covenant itself was not conditional. The elements of the covenant were conditional. When God initiated a covenant, He put forth a rather blunt dichotomy: if you do one set of things then X will ensue and if you do another set of things then Y will ensue. None of them were asked to join and none were permitted to leave. They had only two options: obey and live or disobey and die. God didn't choose, call, declare, or impose the covenant(s) on the Amorites, Jebusites, are Lower Slobovianites. He called, chose, declared, and imposed the covenant on Adam. On Noah.. On Abraham. On Moses. On David. And by extension...... “ You seem to be conflating the covenant with God choice to have a covenant! You say the covenant existed, and then state that a covenant has conditions, and these conditions have a blunt reality of action produces result in both the positive and negative aspects of their actions. Logically then, you are creating two covenants: One conditional and the other unconditional. God’s choice to redeem man in general is not a covenant, it is a personal decision! God’s choice of the elements that comprise the covenant is not a covenant, but a personal decision. Covenants are between two or more parties. Choices are singular in nature. Doug |
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Post by makesends on Apr 15, 2023 14:38:19 GMT -8
As someone else says, Ephesians 2:8 says that Salvation is the gift, not grace and not faith. Yes, I agree salvation is the gift. And it says salvation is by grace through faith. So since salvation is by grace through faith, and salvation is a gift, logically then, grace and faith are also the gift. Except Jesus never taught that faith was a gift to obtain salvation. He always told those whom He healed and saved it was their faith that saved them, not the faith He gave them which saved them. The Bible must be consistent and not contradict the teachings elsewhere by Jesus. The Apostles teaching must line up with what Jesus taught. They cannot contradict what He taught. This is where we must allow the Scriptures to speak on a given issue not what our systematic theology teaches. I had several calvinists on another forum who were unable to see that distinction and always equivocated their theology with Scripture and they are not one in the same although they can be. I don't recall seeing anywhere, Jesus saying that one's faith saved them. Maybe you can demonstrate that he did. While I do agree, however, that the faith that we are to build up is the same faith that saves, the same faith that in any measure is valid, and not based on human decision or will, but rather, it is generated by God, Jesus' saying (for example) "your faith has made you whole" is not the same thing as saying, "your faith has saved you." |
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Post by civic on Apr 15, 2023 14:43:41 GMT -8
Except Jesus never taught that faith was a gift to obtain salvation. He always told those whom He healed and saved it was their faith that saved them, not the faith He gave them which saved them. The Bible must be consistent and not contradict the teachings elsewhere by Jesus. The Apostles teaching must line up with what Jesus taught. They cannot contradict what He taught. This is where we must allow the Scriptures to speak on a given issue not what our systematic theology teaches. I had several calvinists on another forum who were unable to see that distinction and always equivocated their theology with Scripture and they are not one in the same although they can be. I don't recall seeing anywhere, Jesus saying that one's faith saved them. Maybe you can demonstrate that he did. While I do agree, however, that the faith that we are to build up is the same faith that saves, the same faith that in any measure is valid, and not based on human decision or will, but rather, it is generated by God, Jesus' saying (for example) "your faith has made you whole" is not the same thing as saying, "your faith has saved you." Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you. Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you ) hath saved thee; go in peace. Luke 8:48 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace." Luke 17:19 Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!" Luke 18:42 "Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. " Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you." Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour. Matthew 9:2 Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven. Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, " your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour. Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you." Matthew 15:28 "O woman," Jesus answered, " your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Mark 5:34 "Daughter," said Jesus, " your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction." Mark 10:52 "Go," said Jesus, " your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road. John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.
HELPS Word-studies
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).
[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]
Matthew 1:21 V-FIA-3S
GRK: αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν
NAS: Jesus, for He will save His people
KJV: for he shall save his people
INT: he indeed will save the people
Matthew 8:25 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγοντες Κύριε σῶσον ἀπολλύμεθα
NAS: Him, saying, Save [us], Lord;
KJV: saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
INT: saying Lord save us we are perishing
Matthew 9:21 V-FIP-1S
GRK: ἱματίου αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι
NAS: touch His garment, I will get well.
KJV: his garment, I shall be whole.
INT: clothing of him I will be cured
Matthew 9:22 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε καὶ
NAS: your faith has made you well.
KJV: hath made thee whole. And the woman
INT: faith of you has cured you And
Matthew 9:22 V-AIP-3S
GRK: σε καὶ ἐσώθη ἡ γυνὴ
NAS: has made you well. At once
KJV: And the woman was made whole from that
INT: you And was cured the woman
Matthew 10:22 V-FIP-3S
GRK: τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται
NAS: to the end who will be saved.
KJV: to the end shall be saved.
INT: end he will be saved
Matthew 14:30 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγων Κύριε σῶσόν με
NAS: he cried out, Lord, save me!
KJV: saying, Lord, save me.
INT: saying master save me
Matthew 16:25 V-ANA
GRK: ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν
NAS: wishes to save his life
KJV: whosoever will save his life
INT: life of him to save will lose it
Matthew 18:11 V-ANA
GRK: τοῦ ἀνθρώπου σῶσαι τὸ ἀπολωλός
KJV: is come to save that which
INT: of man to save that which has been lost
Matthew 19:25 V-ANP
GRK: ἄρα δύναται σωθῆναι
NAS: who can be saved?
KJV: then can be saved?
INT: then is able to be saved
Matthew 24:13 V-FIP-3S
GRK: τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται
NAS: to the end, he will be saved.
KJV: the end, the same shall be saved.
INT: end he will be saved
Matthew 24:22 V-AIP-3S
GRK: οὐκ ἂν ἐσώθη πᾶσα σάρξ
NAS: life would have been saved; but for the sake
KJV: no flesh be saved: but for
INT: not anyhow there would have been saved any body
Matthew 27:40 V-AMA-2S
GRK: ἡμέραις οἰκοδομῶν σῶσον σεαυτόν εἰ
NAS: it in three days, save Yourself! If
KJV: three days, save thyself. If
INT: days build [it] save yourself If
Matthew 27:42 V-AIA-3S
GRK: Ἄλλους ἔσωσεν ἑαυτὸν οὐ
NAS: He saved others; He cannot
KJV: He saved others; himself
INT: Others he saved himself not
Matthew 27:42 V-ANA
GRK: οὐ δύναται σῶσαι βασιλεὺς Ἰσραήλ
NAS: He cannot save Himself.
KJV: himself he cannot save. If he be
INT: not his is able to save King of Israel
Matthew 27:49 V-FPA-NMS
GRK: ἔρχεται Ἠλίας σώσων αὐτόν ἄλλος
NAS: Elijah will come to save Him.
KJV: Elias will come to save him.
INT: comes Elijah to save him more
Mark 3:4 V-ANA
GRK: κακοποιῆσαι ψυχὴν σῶσαι ἢ ἀποκτεῖναι
NAS: on the Sabbath, to save a life
KJV: or to do evil? to save life, or
INT: to do evil life to save or to kill
Mark 5:23 V-ASP-3S
GRK: αὐτῇ ἵνα σωθῇ καὶ ζήσῃ
NAS: on her, so that she will get well and live.
KJV: that she may be healed; and
INT: on her so that she might be cured and she shall live
Mark 5:28 V-FIP-1S
GRK: ἱματίων αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι
NAS: touch His garments, I will get well.
KJV: his clothes, I shall be whole.
INT: garments of him I will be cured
Mark 5:34 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε ὕπαγε
NAS: your faith has made you well; go
KJV: hath made thee whole; go in
INT: faith of you has healed you go
Mark 6:56 V-IIM/P-3P
GRK: ἥψαντο αὐτοῦ ἐσώζοντο
NAS: as touched it were being cured.
KJV: touched him were made whole.
INT: touched him were healed
Mark 8:35 V-ANA
GRK: αὐτοῦ ψυχὴν σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν
NAS: wishes to save his life
KJV: whosoever will save his life
INT: his life to save will lose it
Mark 8:35 V-FIA-3S
GRK: τοῦ εὐαγγελίου σώσει αὐτήν
NAS: and the gospel's will save it.
KJV: the gospel's, the same shall save it.
INT: of the gospel will save it
Mark 10:26 V-ANP
GRK: τίς δύναται σωθῆναι
NAS: who can be saved?
KJV: Who then can be saved?
INT: who is able to be saved
Mark 10:52 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε καὶ
NAS: your faith has made you well. Immediately
KJV: hath made thee whole. And immediately
INT: faith of you has healed you And
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Post by makesends on Apr 15, 2023 14:48:38 GMT -8
No, the covenant itself was not conditional. The elements of the covenant were conditional. When God initiated a covenant, He put forth a rather blunt dichotomy: if you do one set of things then X will ensue and if you do another set of things then Y will ensue. None of them were asked to join and none were permitted to leave. They had only two options: obey and live or disobey and die. God didn't choose, call, declare, or impose the covenant(s) on the Amorites, Jebusites, are Lower Slobovianites. He called, chose, declared, and imposed the covenant on Adam. On Noah.. On Abraham. On Moses. On David. And by extension...... .... every single one of us!And we should be thankful He did so because absent His extending His grace we'd all be on the other side of the covenant: dead and headed for destruction. Synergism is possible only if the covenant aspects are ignored or neglected. Every single word written about Abraham's descendants (bloodline or those by promise) occurs INESCAPABLY in the context of the covenant initiated by God long before most of us were born. Adam did not ask God to put the forbidden tree in the garden. God planted the garden God wanted planted and He made the humans the way He wanted them made and He then gave them a command with two options, and He NEVER asked them if they wanted to be part of it. Only AFTER all those conditions were already established did He set Adam (and Eve) "free" to think, feel, choose, and act. The exact same conditions exist in ever later exposition of the covenant. Noah wasn't asked. He was chosen, called, and then commanded and there wasn't any debate about him doing or some other guy. Abram, Isaac, and Jacob? ALL the same thing. Moses did argue with God. He tried to get out of it. There is not a single word in the account before the burning bush even remotely indicating Moses what the option to decline or that there was any other person but him. His choices came afterwards, not before. You'll note, if you do the study the word "covenant" is never plural in the OT. There's only one covenant. We Christians abuse this fact quite often. The only plural use of covenants in the OT is in Hosea 4 and that's a reference to human covenants, not God's singular covenant. There are only two plural uses of "covenants" in the NT and one of them (Gal. 3) is stated as an allegory, and indicative of the kind of covenant that ensues from the flesh, and the other (Eph. 2) is a reference to the repeated promises God made each time He introduced the covenant to the different figures of Jewish history. Look it up and verify that for yourselves. Much earlier in one of the threads you or someone else cited the Joshua 24 passage as an example of what you're talking about in this post: the conditional aspects of the covenant. At the time Josh. 24 was asserted I noted the fact that episode occurred looonng after the covenant was established. They were not given a choice in order to establish the covenant. They were given a choice as a consequence of the covenant already having been established. They had entered the promised Promised Land and they were about to eradicate everyone living in the land. All those people that would soon be slaughtered were not given a choice. They were not the covenant people of God. Their destiny was destruction..... because of the covenant God had made with Abraham before a single person in Joshua 24 was even born. And, like Adam before them, they did not wholly obey God and they suffered as a consequence. It's not until the New Testament that we learn it was never about bloodline and always about promise. It was never about negotiation; it was always about promise. You and I did not negotiate a promise with God. He made promises to us before any of us drew our first breath, just as He'd made a promise to all those he'd end up destroying before they drew breath. Genesis 2:15-17 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Obey and live. Disobey and die. That was the covenant and the only choice they had came after they were planted in the covenant relationship...... which we later find out is all about Jesus (1 Pet. 1:20). Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. The law of sin and death = if you obey then you live and if you disobey then you die. And, as everyone already knows, the entire paradigm changed the moment Adam disobeyed God because at that exact moment sin entered the world and death came to ALL humans because all would sin. God did not ask anyone if they wanted it that way. Humans have choices but they do not have any and all choices. Romans 8:1-9 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Regeneration precedes faith because the person who has only the flesh and does not have the Spirit has only a mind of flesh that does not and cannot please God. Just as the first Adam changed the entire creation for the worse, the Last Adam changed the entire creation for those in him. We don't suffer the same death the unregenerate suffer. We all die. That's part of God's design. We didn't have a choice. We have choices that follow God's designs and it is only after having been brought into those designs that ay choices are even offered. Even then the options are stipulated by God. That is the conditional nature of the covenants. However, there is another VERY important aspect to the conditional aspect of the covenant because the conditions aren't actually upon us. If you're familiar with the vision Abraham had of the sundered carcasses and the imagery of the suzerain covenant, then you know God placed Himself, not Abraham, as the one whose life would be forfeit if the covenant was disobeyed. The matter had already been decided long before Abraham was ever asked, long before Abraham was ever born. All the Old Testament examples of the covenant are foreshadows of Christ and one of the undeniable and irrefutable but often neglected aspects of the covenant are as I have stated in these many posts: God initiates them, and He chooses and calls whoever He wills into the covenants without asking them beforehand, and it is only after that happens that any choices are given. So when a synergist selects a verse from an event occurring after the establishment of the covenant and asserts that episode as one of volitional saliency, he is reading scripture eisegetically, not exegetically. He's ignored all the context that renders the episode and gives it full meaning. It's a very risky thing spiritually, imo, because it denies the work of God. Josheb said: “No, the covenant itself was not conditional. The elements of the covenant were conditional. When God initiated a covenant, He put forth a rather blunt dichotomy: if you do one set of things then X will ensue and if you do another set of things then Y will ensue. None of them were asked to join and none were permitted to leave. They had only two options: obey and live or disobey and die. God didn't choose, call, declare, or impose the covenant(s) on the Amorites, Jebusites, are Lower Slobovianites. He called, chose, declared, and imposed the covenant on Adam. On Noah.. On Abraham. On Moses. On David. And by extension...... “ You seem to be conflating the covenant with God choice to have a covenant! You say the covenant existed, and then state that a covenant has conditions, and these conditions have a blunt reality of action produces result in both the positive and negative aspects of their actions. Logically then, you are creating two covenants: One conditional and the other unconditional. God’s choice to redeem man in general is not a covenant, it is a personal decision! God’s choice of the elements that comprise the covenant is not a covenant, but a personal decision. Covenants are between two or more parties. Choices are singular in nature. Doug Hello, Doug. I haven't seen posts by Josheb here in quite a while now. I'm guessing he has left the site, (or maybe he has been barred from it —he does, after all, seem pretty dogmatic, perhaps what some take as excessive irascibility. I hope not, for two reasons. One is because I very much enjoy and appreciate his posts, and the other reason is because if he has been barred from posting to the site, it smacks of hypocritical action, as much as I have heard here the protests of those who say they have been barred from Calvinistic sites.) |
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Post by TibiasDad on Apr 15, 2023 15:31:55 GMT -8
Josheb said: “No, the covenant itself was not conditional. The elements of the covenant were conditional. When God initiated a covenant, He put forth a rather blunt dichotomy: if you do one set of things then X will ensue and if you do another set of things then Y will ensue. None of them were asked to join and none were permitted to leave. They had only two options: obey and live or disobey and die. God didn't choose, call, declare, or impose the covenant(s) on the Amorites, Jebusites, are Lower Slobovianites. He called, chose, declared, and imposed the covenant on Adam. On Noah.. On Abraham. On Moses. On David. And by extension...... “ You seem to be conflating the covenant with God choice to have a covenant! You say the covenant existed, and then state that a covenant has conditions, and these conditions have a blunt reality of action produces result in both the positive and negative aspects of their actions. Logically then, you are creating two covenants: One conditional and the other unconditional. God’s choice to redeem man in general is not a covenant, it is a personal decision! God’s choice of the elements that comprise the covenant is not a covenant, but a personal decision. Covenants are between two or more parties. Choices are singular in nature. Doug Hello, Doug. I haven't seen posts by Josheb here in quite a while now. I'm guessing he has left the site, (or maybe he has been barred from it —he does, after all, seem pretty dogmatic, perhaps what some take as excessive irascibility. I hope not, for two reasons. One is because I very much enjoy and appreciate his posts, and the other reason is because if he has been barred from posting to the site, it smacks of hypocritical action, as much as I have heard here the protests of those who say they have been barred from Calvinistic sites.) I have had a lot of interactions with Josheb over on CARM, and know exactly what his style is. If it’s his way or the highway, I would generally be on the highway. The dude is highly intelligent, and I think sometimes he misses the forest and the trees for the twigs. It’s interesting to engage him, but I find it difficult to carry on a long conversation with his style. Doug |
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Post by civic on May 5, 2023 17:40:19 GMT -8
Hello, Doug. I haven't seen posts by Josheb here in quite a while now. I'm guessing he has left the site, (or maybe he has been barred from it —he does, after all, seem pretty dogmatic, perhaps what some take as excessive irascibility. I hope not, for two reasons. One is because I very much enjoy and appreciate his posts, and the other reason is because if he has been barred from posting to the site, it smacks of hypocritical action, as much as I have heard here the protests of those who say they have been barred from Calvinistic sites.) I have had a lot of interactions with Josheb over on CARM, and know exactly what his style is. If it’s his way or the highway, I would generally be on the highway. The dude is highly intelligent, and I think sometimes he misses the forest and the trees for the twigs. It’s interesting to engage him, but I find it difficult to carry on a long conversation with his style. |
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Post by makesends on May 14, 2023 18:56:25 GMT -8
I don't recall seeing anywhere, Jesus saying that one's faith saved them. Maybe you can demonstrate that he did. While I do agree, however, that the faith that we are to build up is the same faith that saves, the same faith that in any measure is valid, and not based on human decision or will, but rather, it is generated by God, Jesus' saying (for example) "your faith has made you whole" is not the same thing as saying, "your faith has saved you." Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you. Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you ) hath saved thee; go in peace. Luke 8:48 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace." Luke 17:19 Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!" Luke 18:42 "Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. " Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you." Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour. Matthew 9:2 Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven. Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, " your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour. Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you." Matthew 15:28 "O woman," Jesus answered, " your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Mark 5:34 "Daughter," said Jesus, " your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction." Mark 10:52 "Go," said Jesus, " your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road. John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.
HELPS Word-studies
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).
[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]
Matthew 1:21 V-FIA-3S
GRK: αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν
NAS: Jesus, for He will save His people
KJV: for he shall save his people
INT: he indeed will save the people
Matthew 8:25 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγοντες Κύριε σῶσον ἀπολλύμεθα
NAS: Him, saying, Save [us], Lord;
KJV: saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
INT: saying Lord save us we are perishing
Matthew 9:21 V-FIP-1S
GRK: ἱματίου αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι
NAS: touch His garment, I will get well.
KJV: his garment, I shall be whole.
INT: clothing of him I will be cured
Matthew 9:22 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε καὶ
NAS: your faith has made you well.
KJV: hath made thee whole. And the woman
INT: faith of you has cured you And
Matthew 9:22 V-AIP-3S
GRK: σε καὶ ἐσώθη ἡ γυνὴ
NAS: has made you well. At once
KJV: And the woman was made whole from that
INT: you And was cured the woman
Matthew 10:22 V-FIP-3S
GRK: τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται
NAS: to the end who will be saved.
KJV: to the end shall be saved.
INT: end he will be saved
Matthew 14:30 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγων Κύριε σῶσόν με
NAS: he cried out, Lord, save me!
KJV: saying, Lord, save me.
INT: saying master save me
Matthew 16:25 V-ANA
GRK: ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν
NAS: wishes to save his life
KJV: whosoever will save his life
INT: life of him to save will lose it
Matthew 18:11 V-ANA
GRK: τοῦ ἀνθρώπου σῶσαι τὸ ἀπολωλός
KJV: is come to save that which
INT: of man to save that which has been lost
Matthew 19:25 V-ANP
GRK: ἄρα δύναται σωθῆναι
NAS: who can be saved?
KJV: then can be saved?
INT: then is able to be saved
Matthew 24:13 V-FIP-3S
GRK: τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται
NAS: to the end, he will be saved.
KJV: the end, the same shall be saved.
INT: end he will be saved
Matthew 24:22 V-AIP-3S
GRK: οὐκ ἂν ἐσώθη πᾶσα σάρξ
NAS: life would have been saved; but for the sake
KJV: no flesh be saved: but for
INT: not anyhow there would have been saved any body
Matthew 27:40 V-AMA-2S
GRK: ἡμέραις οἰκοδομῶν σῶσον σεαυτόν εἰ
NAS: it in three days, save Yourself! If
KJV: three days, save thyself. If
INT: days build [it] save yourself If
Matthew 27:42 V-AIA-3S
GRK: Ἄλλους ἔσωσεν ἑαυτὸν οὐ
NAS: He saved others; He cannot
KJV: He saved others; himself
INT: Others he saved himself not
Matthew 27:42 V-ANA
GRK: οὐ δύναται σῶσαι βασιλεὺς Ἰσραήλ
NAS: He cannot save Himself.
KJV: himself he cannot save. If he be
INT: not his is able to save King of Israel
Matthew 27:49 V-FPA-NMS
GRK: ἔρχεται Ἠλίας σώσων αὐτόν ἄλλος
NAS: Elijah will come to save Him.
KJV: Elias will come to save him.
INT: comes Elijah to save him more
Mark 3:4 V-ANA
GRK: κακοποιῆσαι ψυχὴν σῶσαι ἢ ἀποκτεῖναι
NAS: on the Sabbath, to save a life
KJV: or to do evil? to save life, or
INT: to do evil life to save or to kill
Mark 5:23 V-ASP-3S
GRK: αὐτῇ ἵνα σωθῇ καὶ ζήσῃ
NAS: on her, so that she will get well and live.
KJV: that she may be healed; and
INT: on her so that she might be cured and she shall live
Mark 5:28 V-FIP-1S
GRK: ἱματίων αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι
NAS: touch His garments, I will get well.
KJV: his clothes, I shall be whole.
INT: garments of him I will be cured
Mark 5:34 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε ὕπαγε
NAS: your faith has made you well; go
KJV: hath made thee whole; go in
INT: faith of you has healed you go
Mark 6:56 V-IIM/P-3P
GRK: ἥψαντο αὐτοῦ ἐσώζοντο
NAS: as touched it were being cured.
KJV: touched him were made whole.
INT: touched him were healed
Mark 8:35 V-ANA
GRK: αὐτοῦ ψυχὴν σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν
NAS: wishes to save his life
KJV: whosoever will save his life
INT: his life to save will lose it
Mark 8:35 V-FIA-3S
GRK: τοῦ εὐαγγελίου σώσει αὐτήν
NAS: and the gospel's will save it.
KJV: the gospel's, the same shall save it.
INT: of the gospel will save it
Mark 10:26 V-ANP
GRK: τίς δύναται σωθῆναι
NAS: who can be saved?
KJV: Who then can be saved?
INT: who is able to be saved
Mark 10:52 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε καὶ
NAS: your faith has made you well. Immediately
KJV: hath made thee whole. And immediately
INT: faith of you has healed you And
Well answered, and thanks for taking the time to do such a thorough job of it. I had forgotten that he had actually told her that her faith had saved her, and indeed it does appear to be referring to actual salvation of her soul, not just temporal (nor temporary) relief from whatever conviction she felt. However, it remains to be shown that "YOUR faith" is referring to something generated by the individual if it is salvific faith. Not only does Christ, in his temporal (human) nature not always think in entirely non-temporal ways, but it does not seem to me that he would not have said, (even if he meant that God was the source of salvific faith), that it was faith that HE (Jesus) gave her, but if he wanted to make a point of it, would have said that the Spirit of God gave it her. Also, I insist that the faith that is generated in us by the Spirit of God IS our faith. It belongs to us, by the work of God in us. It is not an exterior principle brought to bear upon us, forcing us into anything, but MADE WITHIN US. Fully ours, but by the grace of God —not a result of human effort. If the examples you gave concerning healing and such, apart from the one with the word, "saved", in it, are about the same faith (and I do think it is the same faith) those too, are the work of God, though it is rather obvious from Scripture that we can (and must) grow in faith, increase our faith, and so on. Anyhow, again, thanks, brother. |
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Post by civic on May 15, 2023 5:27:14 GMT -8
Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you. Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you ) hath saved thee; go in peace. Luke 8:48 "Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace." Luke 17:19 Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!" Luke 18:42 "Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. " Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you." Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour. Matthew 9:2 Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven. Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, " your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour. Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you." Matthew 15:28 "O woman," Jesus answered, " your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Mark 5:34 "Daughter," said Jesus, " your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction." Mark 10:52 "Go," said Jesus, " your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road. John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.
HELPS Word-studies
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).
[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]
Matthew 1:21 V-FIA-3S
GRK: αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν
NAS: Jesus, for He will save His people
KJV: for he shall save his people
INT: he indeed will save the people
Matthew 8:25 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγοντες Κύριε σῶσον ἀπολλύμεθα
NAS: Him, saying, Save [us], Lord;
KJV: saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
INT: saying Lord save us we are perishing
Matthew 9:21 V-FIP-1S
GRK: ἱματίου αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι
NAS: touch His garment, I will get well.
KJV: his garment, I shall be whole.
INT: clothing of him I will be cured
Matthew 9:22 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε καὶ
NAS: your faith has made you well.
KJV: hath made thee whole. And the woman
INT: faith of you has cured you And
Matthew 9:22 V-AIP-3S
GRK: σε καὶ ἐσώθη ἡ γυνὴ
NAS: has made you well. At once
KJV: And the woman was made whole from that
INT: you And was cured the woman
Matthew 10:22 V-FIP-3S
GRK: τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται
NAS: to the end who will be saved.
KJV: to the end shall be saved.
INT: end he will be saved
Matthew 14:30 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγων Κύριε σῶσόν με
NAS: he cried out, Lord, save me!
KJV: saying, Lord, save me.
INT: saying master save me
Matthew 16:25 V-ANA
GRK: ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν
NAS: wishes to save his life
KJV: whosoever will save his life
INT: life of him to save will lose it
Matthew 18:11 V-ANA
GRK: τοῦ ἀνθρώπου σῶσαι τὸ ἀπολωλός
KJV: is come to save that which
INT: of man to save that which has been lost
Matthew 19:25 V-ANP
GRK: ἄρα δύναται σωθῆναι
NAS: who can be saved?
KJV: then can be saved?
INT: then is able to be saved
Matthew 24:13 V-FIP-3S
GRK: τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται
NAS: to the end, he will be saved.
KJV: the end, the same shall be saved.
INT: end he will be saved
Matthew 24:22 V-AIP-3S
GRK: οὐκ ἂν ἐσώθη πᾶσα σάρξ
NAS: life would have been saved; but for the sake
KJV: no flesh be saved: but for
INT: not anyhow there would have been saved any body
Matthew 27:40 V-AMA-2S
GRK: ἡμέραις οἰκοδομῶν σῶσον σεαυτόν εἰ
NAS: it in three days, save Yourself! If
KJV: three days, save thyself. If
INT: days build [it] save yourself If
Matthew 27:42 V-AIA-3S
GRK: Ἄλλους ἔσωσεν ἑαυτὸν οὐ
NAS: He saved others; He cannot
KJV: He saved others; himself
INT: Others he saved himself not
Matthew 27:42 V-ANA
GRK: οὐ δύναται σῶσαι βασιλεὺς Ἰσραήλ
NAS: He cannot save Himself.
KJV: himself he cannot save. If he be
INT: not his is able to save King of Israel
Matthew 27:49 V-FPA-NMS
GRK: ἔρχεται Ἠλίας σώσων αὐτόν ἄλλος
NAS: Elijah will come to save Him.
KJV: Elias will come to save him.
INT: comes Elijah to save him more
Mark 3:4 V-ANA
GRK: κακοποιῆσαι ψυχὴν σῶσαι ἢ ἀποκτεῖναι
NAS: on the Sabbath, to save a life
KJV: or to do evil? to save life, or
INT: to do evil life to save or to kill
Mark 5:23 V-ASP-3S
GRK: αὐτῇ ἵνα σωθῇ καὶ ζήσῃ
NAS: on her, so that she will get well and live.
KJV: that she may be healed; and
INT: on her so that she might be cured and she shall live
Mark 5:28 V-FIP-1S
GRK: ἱματίων αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι
NAS: touch His garments, I will get well.
KJV: his clothes, I shall be whole.
INT: garments of him I will be cured
Mark 5:34 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε ὕπαγε
NAS: your faith has made you well; go
KJV: hath made thee whole; go in
INT: faith of you has healed you go
Mark 6:56 V-IIM/P-3P
GRK: ἥψαντο αὐτοῦ ἐσώζοντο
NAS: as touched it were being cured.
KJV: touched him were made whole.
INT: touched him were healed
Mark 8:35 V-ANA
GRK: αὐτοῦ ψυχὴν σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν
NAS: wishes to save his life
KJV: whosoever will save his life
INT: his life to save will lose it
Mark 8:35 V-FIA-3S
GRK: τοῦ εὐαγγελίου σώσει αὐτήν
NAS: and the gospel's will save it.
KJV: the gospel's, the same shall save it.
INT: of the gospel will save it
Mark 10:26 V-ANP
GRK: τίς δύναται σωθῆναι
NAS: who can be saved?
KJV: Who then can be saved?
INT: who is able to be saved
Mark 10:52 V-RIA-3S
GRK: πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε καὶ
NAS: your faith has made you well. Immediately
KJV: hath made thee whole. And immediately
INT: faith of you has healed you And
Well answered, and thanks for taking the time to do such a thorough job of it. I had forgotten that he had actually told her that her faith had saved her, and indeed it does appear to be referring to actual salvation of her soul, not just temporal (nor temporary) relief from whatever conviction she felt. However, it remains to be shown that "YOUR faith" is referring to something generated by the individual if it is salvific faith. Not only does Christ, in his temporal (human) nature not always think in entirely non-temporal ways, but it does not seem to me that he would not have said, (even if he meant that God was the source of salvific faith), that it was faith that HE (Jesus) gave her, but if he wanted to make a point of it, would have said that the Spirit of God gave it her. Also, I insist that the faith that is generated in us by the Spirit of God IS our faith. It belongs to us, by the work of God in us. It is not an exterior principle brought to bear upon us, forcing us into anything, but MADE WITHIN US. Fully ours, but by the grace of God —not a result of human effort. If the examples you gave concerning healing and such, apart from the one with the word, "saved", in it, are about the same faith (and I do think it is the same faith) those too, are the work of God, though it is rather obvious from Scripture that we can (and must) grow in faith, increase our faith, and so on. Anyhow, again, thanks, brother. Thanks for responding brother. I look at faith similar to the way I look at other things God calls sinners to to in obedience.
Jesus said many times if any man is willing let him come. He challenge people to be willing which comes from the person to follow after Him. I look at faith the same way as I do our wills. I think there is a direct connection with our minds, wills and faith. I think one leads to the other. We first contemplate with our minds, then we become willing to go/follow and reach out in faith believing in Him, trusting in Him to keep His promise. I believe this is what we see happening in those gospel accounts I was referencing. Now when it comes to salvation of course the Holy Spirit is drawing us, convicting us of our sins. Gods grace always comes first, before we move towards God. But I believe that God places the responsibility to be convinced in our minds of His truth(the gospel) faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Then we are born again as Peter says by the word of God. So we are convicted in our mind/heart, then we are willing to follow Him and by faith we trust Christ for our salvation and confess Him as our Lord ( Romans 10:8-13) and we become saved, born again.
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