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Post by praiseyeshua on Sept 28, 2022 7:31:42 GMT -8
I reject your classication of my argument as being a "ad hominem". I directed my argument at a word. You directed the ad hominem at me when you falsely claim I didn`t understand your contention. Okay. I misunderstood what you were reference. Here are your words. Bold mine... You make the argument using what you say is the root meaning of the word in French and Latin, then you throw in the meaning of other English words that come from the same root word. Seriously?As I said, administration does not have a blended meaning. You did not understand part of my argument. Either way, what I said is accurate and proper in our conversation. |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 28, 2022 7:34:48 GMT -8
I`m readin' the Bible and acceptin' the words the King James scholars used. Dispensations have a time element. Apologetics is a term that means defense of religeous doctrines and the scripture is our source matereal for that 2 Tim 3:16, Gal 1:7. The period of time we live in now is called the "times of the Gentiles" in scripture and trust me, the Gentiles still dominate the world. It`s a Biblical fact that is not dependent on the 4 dispensation verses. Luke 21, Romans 11, Daniel 8, Rev 19. www.gotquestions.org/times-of-the-Gentiles.htmlIf you are not willing to accept the authority of the scriptures then there isn`t much for a Berean Apologetist to say to you. 2 Timothy 3:16 and Gal 1:7 do not have the word "dispensation" in them. Your appeal to them in this conversation is a distraction. FYI. I've been studying the Scriptures since was a young boy. I was born again when I was a teenager. I've spent significant time dealing these issues in my life. When I referenced "time", I was doing so in the context of my statement referencing οἰκονομία. I am more than willing to accept the authority of the Scriptures. Just not King James' authority. I can reference the source language of the Scriptures. I do not deny the "times of the Gentiles". However, that does not establish your position. Please explain how it does? What you will do is evade isues you don`t have a good answer for by claiming source material like you are doing with the term dispensation. The prophecy below is the key to understanding what the times of the Gentiles AKA the dispensation of grace are. Hosea 6 1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 28, 2022 7:40:38 GMT -8
You directed the ad hominem at me when you falsely claim I didn`t understand your contention. Okay. I misunderstood what you were reference. Here are your words. Bold mine... You make the argument using what you say is the root meaning of the word in French and Latin, then you throw in the meaning of other English words that come from the same root word. Seriously?As I said, administration does not have a blended meaning. You did not understand part of my argument. Either way, what I said is accurate and proper in our conversation. More Ad Hominem, this is a quote from a previous post of mine. "The word administration does not address periods of time so it is certainly not a good substitute word. Etymology is a good subject if you use it in a way that is logical." I don`t appriciate having to prove that I have the ability to understand what a word means. Good day to you. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Sept 28, 2022 7:44:25 GMT -8
2 Timothy 3:16 and Gal 1:7 do not have the word "dispensation" in them. Your appeal to them in this conversation is a distraction. FYI. I've been studying the Scriptures since was a young boy. I was born again when I was a teenager. I've spent significant time dealing these issues in my life. When I referenced "time", I was doing so in the context of my statement referencing οἰκονομία. I am more than willing to accept the authority of the Scriptures. Just not King James' authority. I can reference the source language of the Scriptures. I do not deny the "times of the Gentiles". However, that does not establish your position. Please explain how it does? What you will do is evade isues you don`t have a good answer for by claiming source material like you are doing with the term dispensation. The prophecy below is the key to understanding what the times of the Gentiles AKA the dispensation of grace are. Hosea 6 1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. That is not true. I am being systematic with my approach. Have you abandoned your position that dispensation is a proper translation? You MOVED on rather quickly from that part of our conversation. You appealed to "study" and I answered you. You are making assumptions without evidence of their correlation. I believe in Grace. I believe God has been Gracious to humanity since the very beginning. The idea of a "Dispensation of Grace" is contrary to this very fact. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Sept 28, 2022 7:46:55 GMT -8
Okay. I misunderstood what you were reference. Here are your words. Bold mine... You make the argument using what you say is the root meaning of the word in French and Latin, then you throw in the meaning of other English words that come from the same root word. Seriously?As I said, administration does not have a blended meaning. You did not understand part of my argument. Either way, what I said is accurate and proper in our conversation. More Ad Hominem, this is a quote from a previous post of mine. "The word administration does not address periods of time so it is certainly not a good substitute word. Etymology is a good subject if you use it in a way that is logical." I don`t appriciate having to prove that I have the ability to understand what a word means. Good day to you. I used your quote to explain my previous response. Listen.... I made an argument of how administration is the proper translation. You still insist that it doesn't. You provide no evidence to the contrary. Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. |
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Post by RS on Sept 28, 2022 8:27:23 GMT -8
What you will do is evade isues you don`t have a good answer for by claiming source material like you are doing with the term dispensation. The prophecy below is the key to understanding what the times of the Gentiles AKA the dispensation of grace are. Hosea 6 1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. That is not true. I am being systematic with my approach. Have you abandoned your position that dispensation is a proper translation? You MOVED on rather quickly from that part of our conversation. You appealed to "study" and I answered you. You are making assumptions without evidence of their correlation. I believe in Grace. I believe God has been Gracious to humanity since the very beginning. The idea of a "Dispensation of Grace" is contrary to this very fact. It doesn`t make a diff whether you believe the Bible talks about different ages or if you want to believe it`s all just one plan. The arrangements God made with man unfolds the same way in scripture. I find the 4 dispensation verses helpful in understanding the Bible but it`s not really a big issue in my opinion. I believe the times of the Gentiles began in the book of Acts and represent the 2 plus change days in the Hosea prophecy. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Sept 28, 2022 9:33:09 GMT -8
That is not true. I am being systematic with my approach. Have you abandoned your position that dispensation is a proper translation? You MOVED on rather quickly from that part of our conversation. You appealed to "study" and I answered you. You are making assumptions without evidence of their correlation. I believe in Grace. I believe God has been Gracious to humanity since the very beginning. The idea of a "Dispensation of Grace" is contrary to this very fact. It doesn`t make a diff whether you believe the Bible talks about different ages or if you want to believe it`s all just one plan. The arrangements God made with man unfolds the same way in scripture. I find the 4 dispensation verses helpful in understanding the Bible but it`s not really a big issue in my opinion. I believe the times of the Gentiles began in the book of Acts and represent the 2 plus change days in the Hosea prophecy. Man has always been treated with Grace and Longsuffering. Just what do you believe "changed" in Acts? I hope you realize that Gentiles were saved before the book of Acts. Ruth go in.... Tamar was outside the lineage of the children of Jacob. Abraham was saved BEFORE He was ever circumcised. Which makes some Calvinists mad when you mention the fact that Abraham expressed faith BEFORE receiving anything from God. We get MORE information throughout the Scriptures but you must realize also that there were multiple fall away events that humanity experienced. Enoch preached the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints. I sure believe that Enoch knew God...... |
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Post by RS on Sept 28, 2022 12:00:14 GMT -8
It doesn`t make a diff whether you believe the Bible talks about different ages or if you want to believe it`s all just one plan. The arrangements God made with man unfolds the same way in scripture. I find the 4 dispensation verses helpful in understanding the Bible but it`s not really a big issue in my opinion. I believe the times of the Gentiles began in the book of Acts and represent the 2 plus change days in the Hosea prophecy. Man has always been treated with Grace and Longsuffering. Just what do you believe "changed" in Acts? I hope you realize that Gentiles were saved before the book of Acts. Ruth go in.... Tamar was outside the lineage of the children of Jacob. Abraham was saved BEFORE He was ever circumcised. Which makes some Calvinists mad when you mention the fact that Abraham expressed faith BEFORE receiving anything from God. We get MORE information throughout the Scriptures but you must realize also that there were multiple fall away events that humanity experienced. Enoch preached the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints. I sure believe that Enoch knew God...... Before the dispensation of grace began a Gentile would be required to sojourn with Israel as proseylite to be considered righteous. Whether God will be merciful to the ignorant remains to be seen as well. Enoch precedes the Law so again a different arrangement. What changed in the book of Acts??? plenty. You hope I realize that Gentiles were saved before the book of Acts? LOL! Does it make you feel good to make assumptions like that? Most people who find a forum like this interesting are going to have quite a bit of study under their belt. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Sept 29, 2022 5:19:52 GMT -8
Man has always been treated with Grace and Longsuffering. Just what do you believe "changed" in Acts? I hope you realize that Gentiles were saved before the book of Acts. Ruth go in.... Tamar was outside the lineage of the children of Jacob. Abraham was saved BEFORE He was ever circumcised. Which makes some Calvinists mad when you mention the fact that Abraham expressed faith BEFORE receiving anything from God. We get MORE information throughout the Scriptures but you must realize also that there were multiple fall away events that humanity experienced. Enoch preached the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints. I sure believe that Enoch knew God...... Before the dispensation of grace began a Gentile would be required to sojourn with Israel as proseylite to be considered righteous. Whether God will be merciful to the ignorant remains to be seen as well. Enoch precedes the Law so again a different arrangement. What changed in the book of Acts??? plenty. You hope I realize that Gentiles were saved before the book of Acts? LOL! Does it make you feel good to make assumptions like that? Most people who find a forum like this interesting are going to have quite a bit of study under their belt. Who said they had to be proselytes? Can you show me the ritual acceptance of Ruth? Too many assumptions on your part. Ruth MARRIED into the family. The Bridegroom made the difference. Which was true then as it is now. You're ignoring the fact that Enoch preached the return of Jesus Christ. An event that hasn't taken place yet and was foretold to the the world that perished in the flood. There is this nonsense caricature that exists in modern Dispensationalism that knowledge is progressive through the narrative of the Scriptures and the fact is.... that is not always true. Information was lost. In fact, Hosea spoke of how people perish from lack of knowledge. Abraham learned what had been lost to the generations of men before him through unbelief. So I'll ask again, what do you think changed? I don't see any specifics, share them and we can deal with your claims. |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 29, 2022 9:17:23 GMT -8
Before the dispensation of grace began a Gentile would be required to sojourn with Israel as proseylite to be considered righteous. Whether God will be merciful to the ignorant remains to be seen as well. Enoch precedes the Law so again a different arrangement. What changed in the book of Acts??? plenty. You hope I realize that Gentiles were saved before the book of Acts? LOL! Does it make you feel good to make assumptions like that? Most people who find a forum like this interesting are going to have quite a bit of study under their belt. Who said they had to be proselytes? Can you show me the ritual acceptance of Ruth? Too many assumptions on your part. Ruth MARRIED into the family. The Bridegroom made the difference. Which was true then as it is now. You're ignoring the fact that Enoch preached the return of Jesus Christ. An event that hasn't taken place yet and was foretold to the the world that perished in the flood. There is this nonsense caricature that exists in modern Dispensationalism that knowledge is progressive through the narrative of the Scriptures and the fact is.... that is not always true. Information was lost. In fact, Hosea spoke of how people perish from lack of knowledge. Abraham learned what had been lost to the generations of men before him through unbelief. So I'll ask again, what do you think changed? I don't see any specifics, share them and we can deal with your claims. Having the ability to read Greek or Hebrew and knowing the scriptures are 2 different things. A Gentile living in Israel who kept the law was a righteous equal of the Jews and their children born after would be native born which is why there are Jews of all races in the world today In Acts 2 we see that there are three kinds of people, Jews, strangers and proselytes. In Matthew 23 we are commanded to obey the Rabbi and keep their interpretation of the Law. In Acts 15 the Gentiles are released from obligation to the nation of Israel and its Rabbi as well as to even the law itself. That is the cause of all the celebrating. That`s a pretty huge change. Did Paul preach something new? According to Paul the answer to that question would have been YES. Try reading the book of Romans sometime. Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. Acts 2 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,Matthew 23 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;Acts 15 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Sept 29, 2022 12:55:04 GMT -8
Having the ability to read Greek or Hebrew and knowing the scriptures are 2 different things. A Gentile living in Israel who kept the law was a righteous equal of the Jews and their children born after would be native born which is why there are Jews of all races in the world today I'm going to take this line by line. Claim by claim. Your first claim is false in accordance with Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. How is that for reading the book of Romans? Jews have never been established by keeping the law. Never. "Born in the land" doesn't = Jew. |
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Post by RS on Sept 29, 2022 13:26:13 GMT -8
Having the ability to read Greek or Hebrew and knowing the scriptures are 2 different things. A Gentile living in Israel who kept the law was a righteous equal of the Jews and their children born after would be native born which is why there are Jews of all races in the world today I'm going to take this line by line. Claim by claim. Your first claim is false in accordance with Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. How is that for reading the book of Romans? Jews have never been established by keeping the law. Never. "Born in the land" doesn't = Jew. You asked me about Gentiles who became citizens of ancient Israel and I gave you the law that made that possible. Romans 9:7 is about the spiritual aspect of it. You are mixing up different issues which doesn`t speak well for your understanding of the gospel. |
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Post by RS on Sept 29, 2022 13:30:58 GMT -8
It is just like the verse that says that now there is neither male nor female. Well, females are still female in the flesh, the verse is spiritual. Get it now?
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Post by Admin on Sept 29, 2022 14:17:09 GMT -8
It is just like the verse that says that now there is neither male nor female. Well, females are still female in the flesh, the verse is spiritual. Get it now? Rick In the future please log in before posting. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Sept 29, 2022 14:19:44 GMT -8
I'm going to take this line by line. Claim by claim. Your first claim is false in accordance with Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. How is that for reading the book of Romans? Jews have never been established by keeping the law. Never. "Born in the land" doesn't = Jew. You asked me about Gentiles who became citizens of ancient Israel and I gave you the law that made that possible. Romans 9:7 is about the spiritual aspect of it. You are mixing up different issues which doesn`t speak well for your understanding of the gospel. No. I did not. I asked about Gentiles that were saved. Not citizens of ancient Israel. You are being dishonest. Quote me where I asked about citizenship. There is no Jew without the Spiritual promises given to Abraham. It is the false teaching of Dispensationalism that teaches such nonsense. Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Read your Bible. Believe your Bible. Forget about what others say about it.... Get it yourself. There were a group of "people" claiming heritage in Abraham who were seeking to kill Jesus. Jesus told them that they were of their father the devil. Joh 8:39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, Joh 8:40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. Joh 8:41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. |
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