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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2022 17:24:29 GMT -8
Aug 13, 2022 20:02:37 GMT -5 michaiah said: I have been repeatedly reading the King James Bible for over 10 years and ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is not found. In my estimation someone has to introduce you to this extra-biblical doctrine.
amen
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 13, 2022 18:19:23 GMT -8
Which is the stronger term? always saved or saved to the uttermost?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2022 19:13:14 GMT -8
That "come" to God is not a one time past tense singular come.
It's a continual coming to God through him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 2:14:37 GMT -8
And if we stop believing, we don't have that promise anymore.
The Holy Spirit doesn't leave people, they leave Him.
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Post by gomer on Aug 14, 2022 5:00:37 GMT -8
If one must meet necessary conditions (being a sheep that hears and follows Christ) in order to initially gain the promise of eternal life, then it only makes sense that one must CONTINUE to meet those same conditions of hearing and following in order to maintain that promise of eternal life. That's why both verbs 'hear' and 'follow' are after all in the present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. Therefore it makes sense if one quits meeting these necessary conditions of hearing and following then one loses the promise of eternal life. Jesus never made His gift of eternal life unconditional no matter how the Christian lives as Jn 10:27-28 shows. Jesus did make it a certainty that as long as one continues to hear and follow, it is a certainty he will never perish or be plucked out of God's hand. Yet that certainty is based upon the condition one continues to hear and follow. Therefore I can know with certainty that as long as I hear and follow Christ I will never perish and I have that certainty apart from the teaching of eternal security which leaves false certainty that one can quit hearing and following turning to live in sin yet be saved anyway as Charles Stanley wrongly teaches. The problem I have with this is the word eternal life, in reality, it means to live forever, if God says I will live forever, yet I can die.. then o never really had eternal life to begin with, if it is truly conditional life. Why did god not call it what it is, conditional life. The promise of eternal life (living forever) is CONDITIONAL. Living forever is only to those that CONDITIONALLY continue to hear and follow Christ. There is no 'living forever' for those who quit hearing and following Christ. No one was ever UNconditionally promised eternal life regardless of how they live, what they do.
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Post by gomer on Aug 14, 2022 5:39:16 GMT -8
2Co 1:22 who has placed his seal on us and has given us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment. 2Co 1:22 Having put his chotam [seal of ownership BERESHIS 38:18; YECHEZKEL 9:4; Ep 1:13; 4:30; Rv 7:4] on us and having given the eravon (pledge) of the Ruach Hakodesh in our levavot. (hearts Ro 8:16; 2C 5:5; Ep 1:14). [BERESHIS 38:18; YECHEZKEL 9:4; CHAGGAI 2:23] OJB Who hath also sealed us - The word used here (from σφραγίζω sphragizō) means to seal up; to close and make fast with a seal, or signet; as, e. g., books, letters, etc. that they may not be read. It is also used in the sense of setting a mark on anything, or a seal, to denote that it is genuine, authentic, confirmed, or approved, as when a deed, compact, or agreement is sealed. it is thus made sure; and is confirmed or established. Hence, it is applied to persons, as denoting that they are approved, as in Rev_7:3; “Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads;” compare Eze_9:4; see the note, Joh_6:27, were it is said of the Saviour, “for him hath God the Father sealed;” compare Joh_3:33. In a similar manner Christians are said to be sealed; to be sealed by the Holy Spirit Eph_1:13; Eph_4:30; that is, the Holy Spirit is given to them to confirm them as belonging to God. He grants them His Spirit. He renews and sanctifies them. He produces in their hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are an evidence that they are approved by God; that they are regarded as his adopted children; that their hope is genuine, and that their redemption and salvation are sure - in the same way as a seal makes a will or an agreement sure. God grants to them His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that they are His, and shall be approved and saved in the last day. In this there is nothing miraculous, or in the nature of direct revelation. It consists of the ordinary operations of the Spirit on the heart, producing repentance, faith, hope, joy, conformity to God, the love of prayer and praise, and the Christian virtues generally; and these things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart, and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption. And given the earnest of the Spirit - The word used here (ἀῤῥαβών arrabōn from the Hebrew צרבון ‛arabown means properly a pledge given to ratify a contract; a part of the price, or purchase money; a first payment; that which confirms the bargain, and which is regarded as a pledge that all the price will be paid. The word occurs in the Septuagint and Hebrew, in Gen_38:17-18; Gen_38:20. In the New Testament it occurs only in this place, and in 2Co_5:5, and Eph_1:14, in each place in the same connection as applied to the Holy Spirit, and his influences on the heart. It refers to those influences as a pledge of the future glories which await Christians in heaven. In regard to the “earnest,” or the part of a price which was paid in a contract, it may be remarked: (1) That it was of the same nature as the full price, being regarded as a part of it; (2) It was regarded as a pledge or assurance that the full price would be paid. So the “earnest of the Spirit,” denotes that God gives to his people the influences of his Spirit: his operation on the heart as a part or pledge that all the blessings of the covenant of redemption shall be given to them. And it implies: (1) That the comforts of the Christian here are of the same nature as they will be in heaven. Heaven will consist of like comforts; of love, and peace, and joy, and purity begun here, and simply expanded there to complete and eternal perfection. The joys of heaven differ only in degree, not in kind, from those of the Christian on earth. That which is begun here is perfected there; and the feelings and views which the Christian has here, if expanded and carried out, would constitute heaven. (2) These comforts, these influences of the Spirit, are a pledge of heaven. They are the security which God gives us that we shall be saved. If we are brought under the renewing influences of the Spirit here; if we are made meek, and humble, and prayerful by his agency; if we are made to partake of the joys which result from pardoned sin; if we are filled with the hope of heaven, it is all produced by the Holy Spirit, and is a pledge, or earnest of our future inheritance; as the first sheaves of a harvest are a pledge of a harvest; or the first payment under a contract a pledge that all will be payed. God thus gives to his people the assurance that they shall be saved; and by this “pledge” makes their title to eternal life sure. σφραγισαμενος G4972 V-AMP-NSM σφραγίζω to stamp for security Part of Speech: Verb Tense: Aorist Voice: Middle Mood: Participle Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative) Number: Singular Gender: Masculine δους G1325 V-2AAP-NSM δίδωμι to give Part of Speech: Verb Tense: second Aorist....What is the Second Aorist? Voice: Active Mood: Participle Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative) Number: Singular Gender: Masculine Eph 1:13 You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, [Lit. in him] you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until God redeems his own possession [Lit. of the possession] for his praise and glory. Can a genuine believer in Christ Jesus be "unsealed" when sealed by the Spirit? J. Individuals are not arbitrarily unconditionally sealed for some mysterious reason. To become sealed and remained sealed requires one CONDITIONALLY be faithful to God. In Corinthians and Ephesians Paul is addressing those who were Christians. Therefore to be of this sealed group called Christian one must become a Christian and faithfully remain a Christian. If one becomes unfaithful and falls from being a Christian, falls from the church the body of Christ, he no longer sealed for he is no longer of the sealed group. No sealing APART from the group Christian. The church at Ephesus was sealed but because they did not remain faithful they were on the verge of becoming lost (Rev 2:1-7) for they had fallen, left Christ and if they did not repent the church (candlestick) located at Ephesus would be removed...God would no longer recognize them as His church. The seal is no good apart from a faithful obedience.Paul used a form of the Greek word 'sealed' (sphragis) in Rom 4:11 that he used in Eph 1:13. In Rom 4:11 Abraham's circumcision was a 'seal' of his righteousness he had when he was uncircumcised. All Jews received this seal of circumcision but that seal did not mean a guaranteed unconditional salvation for most all Jews were lost except for an obedient remnant (Rom 11:5). Though the Jews had this seal they were still cast off due to unbelief (Rom 11:20). The seal was no good apart from a faithful obedience. The remnant of Jews who were sealed were the ones who obeyed the gospel (Acts 2:38). Therefore being sealed and remaining sealed is CONDITIONAL upon a CONTINUED faithful obedience to God. Again, the NT does not speak of individuals being given an UNconditional guaranteed sealing apart from the word of God, apart from obedience to that word, apart from the group Christian which is the body of Christ. The Bible does not teach being sealed is an unconditional guarantee regardless of how the Christian lives, what the Christian does.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 14, 2022 6:07:39 GMT -8
Just a test
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 14, 2022 6:07:55 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 7:57:10 GMT -8
Where in the Bible does it imply a seal cannot be broken?
I've never seen that, in fact we have Christ breaking seals in Revelation.
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Post by civic on Aug 14, 2022 8:54:17 GMT -8
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Amen !
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 14, 2022 9:36:51 GMT -8
Aug 13, 2022 20:02:37 GMT -5 michaiah said: I have been repeatedly reading the King James Bible for over 10 years and ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is not found. In my estimation someone has to introduce you to this extra-biblical doctrine.
amen What does someone have to do to get saved and stay saved?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 9:38:54 GMT -8
What does someone have to do to get saved and stay saved?
Trust that Christ did everything for them, and maintain that trust until death.
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Post by gomer on Aug 14, 2022 10:24:38 GMT -8
The promise of eternal life (living forever) is CONDITIONAL. Living forever is only to those that CONDITIONALLY continue to hear and follow Christ. There is no 'living forever' for those who quit hearing and following Christ. No one was ever UNconditionally promised eternal life regardless of how they live, what they do. Amazing, I never hear anything re the Holy Spirit, FAITH...how DO you hear and follow Christ? J. One hears and follows Christ simply by doing/obeying Christ's NT gospel.
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Post by gomer on Aug 14, 2022 10:56:14 GMT -8
Individuals are not arbitrarily unconditionally sealed for some mysterious reason. To become sealed and remained sealed requires one CONDITIONALLY be faithful to God. In Corinthians and Ephesians Paul is addressing those who were Christians. Therefore to be of this sealed group called Christian one must become a Christian and faithfully remain a Christian. If one becomes unfaithful and falls from being a Christian, falls from the church the body of Christ, he no longer sealed for he is no longer of the sealed group. No sealing APART from the group Christian. The church at Ephesus was sealed but because they did not remain faithful they were on the verge of becoming lost (Rev 2:1-7) for they had fallen, left Christ and if they did not repent the church (candlestick) located at Ephesus would be removed...God would no longer recognize them as His church. The seal is no good apart from a faithful obedience.Paul used a form of the Greek word 'sealed' (sphragis) in Rom 4:11 that he used in Eph 1:13. In Rom 4:11 Abraham's circumcision was a 'seal' of his righteousness he had when he was uncircumcised. All Jews received this seal of circumcision but that seal did not mean a guaranteed unconditional salvation for most all Jews were lost except for an obedient remnant (Rom 11:5). Though the Jews had this seal they were still cast off due to unbelief (Rom 11:20). The seal was no good apart from a faithful obedience. The remnant of Jews who were sealed were the ones who obeyed the gospel (Acts 2:38). Therefore being sealed and remaining sealed is CONDITIONAL upon a CONTINUED faithful obedience to God. Again, the NT does not speak of individuals being given an UNconditional guaranteed sealing apart from the word of God, apart from obedience to that word, apart from the group Christian which is the body of Christ. The Bible does not teach being sealed is an unconditional guarantee regardless of how the Christian lives, what the Christian does. Eph 1:3 The Many Blessings of Salvation ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah! [Or Christ] He has blessed us in the Messiah [Or Christ] with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm, Eph 1:4 just as he chose us in the Messiah [Lit. in him] before the creation of the universe [Or world] to be holy and blameless in his presence. In love Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself through Jesus the Messiah, [Or Christ] according to the pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 so that we would praise [Lit. to the praise of] his glorious grace that he gave us in the Beloved One. Eph 1:7 In union with him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our offenses, according to the riches of God’s [Lit. his] grace Eph 1:8 that he lavished on us, along with all wisdom and understanding, Eph 1:9 when he made known to us the secret of his will. This was according to his plan that he set forth in the Messiah [Lit. him] Eph 1:10 to usher in [Or administer] the fullness of the times and to bring together in the Messiah [Or Christ] all things in heaven and on earth. Eph 1:11 ¶ In the Messiah [Lit. him] we were also chosen when we were predestined according to the purpose of the one who does everything that he wills to do, Eph 1:12 so that we who had already fixed our hope on the Messiah [Or Christ] might live for his praise and glory. Eph 1:13 You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, [Lit. in him] you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until God redeems his own possession [Lit. of the possession] for his praise and glory. Thanksgiving and Prayer Eph 1:15 Paul’s Prayer for the Ephesians ¶ Therefore, because I have heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love [Other mss. lack your love] for all the saints, Eph 1:16 I never stop giving thanks for you as I mention you in my prayers. Eph 1:17 I pray [The Gk. lacks I pray] that the God of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, [Or Christ] the most glorious Father, would give you a wise spirit, along with revelation that comes through knowing the Messiah [Lit. knowing him] fully. Eph 1:18 Then, with the eyes of your hearts enlightened, you will know the confidence [Or hope] that is produced by God [Lit. him] having called you, [The Gk. lacks you] the rich glory that is his inheritance among the saints, Eph 1:19 and the unlimited greatness of his power for us who believe, according to the working of his mighty strength, Eph 1:20 which he brought about in the Messiah [Or Christ] when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realm. Eph 1:21 He is far above every ruler, authority, power, dominion, and every name that can be named, not only in the present age, but also in the one to come. Eph 1:22 God [Lit. He] has put everything under the Messiah’s [Lit. under his] feet and has made him the head of everything for the good of [The Gk. lacks the good of] the church, Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills everything in every way. [Or who fills all in all] Show me, gomer, anywhere in this passage, CONTINUAL OBEDIENCE TO GOD....Rom 9:14 ¶ What can we say, then? God is not unrighteous, is he? Of course not! Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will be merciful to the person I want to be merciful to, and I will be kind to the person I want to be kind to.” [Exod 33:19] Rom 9:16 Therefore, God’s choice [Lit. it] does not depend on a person’s will or effort, but on God himself, who shows mercy. Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says about Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for this very purpose, to demonstrate my power through you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [Exod 9:16] Rom 9:18 ¶ Therefore, God [Lit. he] has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
Except the Father draw him (ean mē helkusēi auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mē and first aorist active subjunctive of helkuō, older form helkō, to drag like a net (Joh_21:6), or sword (Joh_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power (Joh_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. Surō, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not used of Christ’s drawing power. The same point is repeated in Joh_6:65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of Joh_6:37. See Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudeis dunatai here.
Joh 12:30 ¶ Jesus replied, “This voice is for your benefit, not for mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the time for the judgment of this world to begin. [Lit. Now is the judgment of this world] Now will the ruler of this world be thrown out.
Joh 12:32 As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself.”
Joh 12:33 He said this to indicate the kind of death he was about to die.
1 ) "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth," (kago ean hupsotho ek tes ges) "And I, if I am lifted up out of and away from the earth," fulfilling the purpose for which He came, Luk_19:10; Joh_3:14-15; Joh_8:28; Rom_5:8; 2Co_5:21; Gal_3:13; 1Pe_2:24. The cross draws men to His throne and to Him.
2) "Will draw all men unto me." (pantas helkuso pros emauthon) "I will draw all men or things to myself," in the resurrection, and final judgement, Joh_5:18-19; 2Ti_4:1-2; Heb_9:27-28. The term "all things," I will draw to me, is a literal meaning of the language used in the original here, and refers to the eventual restitution of all agencies, governments, and creatures of creation under His jurisdiction and judgement, Act_3:21; Rom_8:22; Rom_8:3, 1Co_15:24-28.
You made some statements I cannot agree with gomer.
Which brings me back to my question, how can a genuine believer, once sealed with the Holy Spirit, be "unsealed" later in his/her life?
In Ephesians Paul was addressing "Saints", the 'faithful in Christ' verse 1, he was addressing Christian and one must conditionally be of this group Christian to be sealed and faithfully remain in this group to remain sealed since no one is sealed outside of Christ. Some 25-30 years later this "sealed" congregation at Ephesus was about to become lost if they did not repent (Rev 2:1-7). If OSAS were Biblical, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for them to have fallen and leave Christ. Where does the Bible teach the Christian can turn and disobey God and yet remain saved/sealed anyway? It doesn't, for becoming sealed and remaining sealed requires one to be faith, to CONTINUE to walk in the light (1 Jn 1:7) to remain saved. Being sealed was NEVER an UNconditional promise made to anyone...the Ephesians are an example of not remaining faithful and no longer being of the sealed group Christian. I showed this idea of being sealed existed in the OT with God's once chosen people the Jews, though they had a seal, most were lost for they did not remain faithful, cast away due to unbelief. If I remember correctly the same Greek word Paul used for seal in Eph 1:13 is the same word used about Christ's tomb being sealed yet that seal of Christ's tomb was broken. Again, being sealed is not an unconditional promise regardless of how the Christian lives. It seems the followers of OSAS read the idea of 'unconditional' into various verses. There is not a single example in the NT of an individual being UNconditionally, apart from conditionally obeying the word of God, apart from conditionally being in the group Christian. John 5:45 explains HOW the drawing of v45 is done. That drawing is not by dragging one against one's will but the drawing is done by the word of God when one is TAUGHT, has HEARD and LEARNS cometh unto Christ. It is those that of their own free will who conditionally continue (present tense) to come unto Christ that God will raise up the last day. Simply put, God draws by His word..men come. Again, those Ephesians are an example of who were sealed at the time Paul wrote to them for they were still faithful yet with time they became unfaithful, had fallen, left Christ and would no longer be of the sealed group called Christian if they did not repent. Again, all this is IMPOSSIBLE if OSAS were Biblical. Therefore when one casts aside his faith, turns from Christ he falls from the sealed group. The group still remains sealed yet those who fall from that group do not unconditionally remain sealed for 1) being sealed was never an unconditional promise and 2) it is impossible to be sealed apart from the group, the body of Christ called Christian.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 14, 2022 11:22:14 GMT -8
What does someone have to do to get saved and stay saved?
Trust that Christ did everything for them, and maintain that trust until death.
Fair enough, but what then is the issue with being saved once youre saved?
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