Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 12:55:35 GMT -8
In the parable of the wise and foolish virgins all were waiting for the Bridegroom and all had oil.
But these are suppose to be "unsaved" people who had a "taste" of the Gospel.
This makes no sense—people who merely here the Gospel have no oil and are not waiting for the Bridegroom.
In the parable of the vine and branches, every branch was said to be in Christ.
But these branches in Christ are suppose to be "unsaved" people who had a "taste" of the Gospel.
That doesn't put someone "in" Christ and there would be nothing to be cut off or fall from.
Apply this same logic to a hundred other warning passages and see how ridiculous it is to call them all unsaved people who just heard the Gospel without accepting it.
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 8, 2022 15:16:40 GMT -8
this earth is the prison
His souls will be saved by Him
at the Change soon
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 9, 2022 13:28:53 GMT -8
This is not true, OSAS does NOT assume any promise is unconditional. If anyone thinks this they do not understand osas at all |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 9, 2022 13:32:48 GMT -8
Could eternal security be more clearly stated?
100% yes, it could be more clearly stated.
For this promise to mean eternal security it must with absolute clarity and precision make it clear that there are no conditions and variables that could apply to it.
This is a presupposition brought to the text from man made ideologies, that clearly does not fit the verse I quoted nor all the times the Bible gives clear conditional warnings that express an actual potential and hypothetical.
To make someone "feel secure" by giving them hundreds of warnings that don't apply to them but sound like they do, is the most unreliable and dishonest way God could possibly bring security to us.
The bible is very clear whoever believes will never perish has eternal life, has passed fro. Death to life, will be raised on the last day. Has been given the seal of the spirit until the day of redemption, will never be lost, we can go on and on and on |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 9, 2022 13:34:57 GMT -8
I'm sorry I thought Chalcedon told you I was Predestined from carm. I read your posts there all the time. I checked out theos.org/forum/ and read your post Re: OT Saul's Salvation and Fall From Grace?. It seems a lot cooler there as compared to carm. I like to hear what people that know what they are talking about have to say as I can learn something. I'm not into the sword fighting and mocking and ridicule thing.
Ohhh, I asked Chalcedon who you are but I think he is busy right now, lol.
Man they deleted the post just because I quoted him, it's absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah, all that hostility is just not fun and not very loving.
I never heard of that forum but wow, sounds prety bad, |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2022 13:35:50 GMT -8
The bible is very clear whoever believes will never perish has eternal life, has passed fro. Death to life, will be raised on the last day. Has been given the seal of the spirit until the day of redemption, will never be lost, we can go on and on and on
Isn't it strange then that some people think you can stop believing and still be saved.
THAT'S surely nowhere in the Bible.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 9, 2022 13:39:30 GMT -8
Here in John Jesus tells us, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one”. John 10:27-30 Here are five distinct points made by Jesus: 1. His sheep hear His voice. 2. He knows them. 3. They follow Him. 4. He gives them eternal life. 5. They shall never perish because: a. His Father gave them to Him; b. No one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand because He is greater than all; c. He and the Father are One; therefore, no one can snatch them out of His hand either. Could eternal security be more clearly stated? The category of “no one” is every believer, no believer is excluded from this category. So no one, not even the believer, can take himself from the Father’s hand. If we examine other translations, we again see the emphasis of this passage. The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28: “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed. And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” My personal favorite, Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament renders it, “And they shall positively not perish, never.” Again, what could be clearer? If one must meet necessary conditions (being a sheep that hears and follows Christ) in order to initially gain the promise of eternal life, then it only makes sense that one must CONTINUE to meet those same conditions of hearing and following in order to maintain that promise of eternal life. That's why both verbs 'hear' and 'follow' are after all in the present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. Therefore it makes sense if one quits meeting these necessary conditions of hearing and following then one loses the promise of eternal life. Jesus never made His gift of eternal life unconditional no matter how the Christian lives as Jn 10:27-28 shows. Jesus did make it a certainty that as long as one continues to hear and follow, it is a certainty he will never perish or be plucked out of God's hand. Yet that certainty is based upon the condition one continues to hear and follow. Therefore I can know with certainty that as long as I hear and follow Christ I will never perish and I have that certainty apart from the teaching of eternal security which leaves false certainty that one can quit hearing and following turning to live in sin yet be saved anyway as Charles Stanley wrongly teaches. The problem I have with this is the word eternal life, in reality, it means to live forever, if God says I will live forever, yet I can die.. then o never really had eternal life to begin with, if it is truly conditional life. Why did god not call it what it is, conditional life. |
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Post by civic on Aug 9, 2022 13:40:38 GMT -8
The bible is very clear whoever believes will never perish has eternal life, has passed fro. Death to life, will be raised on the last day. Has been given the seal of the spirit until the day of redemption, will never be lost, we can go on and on and on
Isn't it strange then that some people think you can stop believing and still be saved.
THAT'S surely nowhere in the Bible.
You are not missing much that’s for sure and it’s the real reason this forum was created . Some posters there asked me to do this and with Odadiahs help we have our own forum . So far I like what I’m seeing and it’s 10 times friendlier and the members here are being respectful . The other forum is filled with personal attacks all of the time . And I get banned there for saying the same things here about Calvinism . I have been online for about 20 years on Christian forums so I have a good idea what I like and don’t like on a forum . We don’t have a bunch of rules just the simple one that says the following . My hope and prayer is for it to be a place like this below . “Members of Berean Apologetic forum are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration. Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that Christian Forums will display the gracious love of God. The above motto on our forum is for the benefit of this community to have a safe place where all faiths and people are welcomed to ask questions, receive answers and express their views freely without hinderance or concern of retaliation. We value your religious freedoms of expression and ideas.” |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 9, 2022 13:46:35 GMT -8
The bible is very clear whoever believes will never perish has eternal life, has passed fro. Death to life, will be raised on the last day. Has been given the seal of the spirit until the day of redemption, will never be lost, we can go on and on and on
Isn't it strange then that some people think you can stop believing and still be saved.
THAT'S surely nowhere in the Bible.
I do not understand that thinking. john said a person why Denys Christ is an antichrist. A non believer Denys Christ, so they would be an antichrist john said they were never of us (never saved) if they were of us, they never would have left, but the left to prove they were not of us, many people walk into our churches professing to know Christ, we can assume they all do. Or know that there is a chance some do not the bi le tells us ways to know if someone does not really know christ they claim to have faith, but act like the world. (No works). They are hearers only not doers, judge calls them licentious they walk away and now deny christ, they tried Christianity out for a bit, but since they were never born again, they never experienced fully Gods love, eventually, they will repent back to the world. Because they may have tasted gods love by being in the church through his people. But they have never experienced it personally through his sin, now saying this I would never judge a person, or should we, James wrote to people to test their own faith. Not for fruit inspectors to test if they are saved and John gave this word of encouragement to believers, who watch people walk away and now attack them and non believers. That it was not god that failed, Paul said he who begun a good work will complete it.l but it was their faith that failed, they were never of us, |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 9, 2022 13:50:56 GMT -8
Isn't it strange then that some people think you can stop believing and still be saved.
THAT'S surely nowhere in the Bible.
You are not missing much that’s for sure and it’s the real reason this forum was created . Some posters there asked me to do this and with Odadiahs help we have our own forum . So far I like what I’m seeing and it’s 10 times friendlier and the members here are being respectful . The other forum is filled with personal attacks all of the time . And I get banned there for saying the same things here about Calvinism . I have been online for about 20 years on Christian forums so I have a good idea what I like and don’t like on a forum . We don’t have a bunch of rules just the simple one that says the following . My hope and prayer is for it to be a place like this below . “Members of Berean Apologetic forum are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration. Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that Christian Forums will display the gracious love of God. The above motto on our forum is for the benefit of this community to have a safe place where all faiths and people are welcomed to ask questions, receive answers and express their views freely without hinderance or concern of retaliation. We value your religious freedoms of expression and ideas.” I am blessed then to be here, I could never fathom in almost ten years in christian chat why people who attack others willfully and continually are aloud to continue to bash others to no end |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2022 13:53:01 GMT -8
How would you know your faith is not a fake faith?
That's the problem with patching up OSAS by claiming everyone who fell away didn't have a good enough faith—it takes away all real security you can know that YOUR faith is real. There are TONS of people who said just what you said—that they believed in OSAS—that now deny Christ.
The "eternal" argument is just bad, I honestly don't get why people think it's so convincing. They are importing the idea of "unconditional" into "eternal."
Adam and Eve had eternal life.
They lost it.
Case closed.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 9, 2022 17:25:24 GMT -8
they had no faith. Faith of a mustard seed can move mountains, no faith will not do a thing, Thats why there is no power The "eternal" argument is just bad, I honestly don't get why people think it's so convincing. They are importing the idea of "unconditional" into "eternal." As for the tons who believed in osas and deny christ. 1 John answers that question. They were never of us, if they were of us they never would have left. Adam and Eve did not have eternal life. Proven by the fact that Gods said if you eat of this tree you will die. They did not need saved, They EARNED their rightful place as Gods creation and children because they never sinned, they were in fact perfect. So to use this and say case closed is a little premature You keep saying OSAS gives false security. I see NOSAS as giving no security at all. How could you have security. You do not know what the future holds. If you will struggle with a sin, If something so deep happens you lose faith in God. If your church lets you down and you question God..Or if you will even be good enough. You have to depend on self.. I can find no rest in NOSAS.. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2022 17:58:18 GMT -8
The reason you can find no rest in NOSAS is because you have false conditions. You don't believe God's grace is sufficient for you apart from OSAS. Rejecting OSAS does not mean God asks me to do something I can't do. Also you gave absolutely no reason or proof why you know your faith is genuine—this is very telling. Most people I've interacted with start pointing to their works, which is ironic. Well, look at how many good works and fruit I have, that proves I am saved—even though I'm literally not saved BY the works, I still find ASSURANCE by the works. That is literally contradictory.
I'm always amused when people say "Well, if I could lose my salvation, I would." I understand what they mean, that they can't earn salvation. But if they are claiming that they are sinning as hard and as much as they can in every single area they can think of, that would be proving whether they could lose salvation. No Christian is doing that—every Christian could sin more than they currently do.
Think about what you are doing with the definition of eternal by importing "unconditionally forever." Suppose Adam read Genesis where it says "God breathed into his face the breath of life, and Adam was a living soul." Adam reasons with himself, well a living soul is by definition not dead. Therefore I cannot die, because I am a living soul. When God says "You shall surely die," Adam can say "But I'm a living soul. Life is not death. Therefore I can't die."
The logic there is exactly no different. It's claiming an attribute cannot change merely by virtue of it being an attribute. There is not some logical trick where you can take the word "eternal" life and make it mean no warning is applicable to you anymore, and it means a fiat, unilateral, unconditional promise that you will maintain that attribute and state no matter what. It's a non-sequitur. It does not logically follow. It's just making up some random rule that does not come from the meaning of eternal.
Adam and Eve DID have eternal life—because their life could last forever. That doesn't mean it WILL last forever. It COULD. There are conditions to maintaining eternal life, just like for Adam and Eve. There is nothing logically inconsistent with that. There is no logical reason to call this "temporary life" or "conditional life," because you are taking another attribute and adjective and forcing it into the word eternal. I can have something that would be potentially eternal, but not necessarily eternal. The life is qualitatively eternal, not quantitatively. I have not literally lived forever.
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Post by michaiah on Aug 13, 2022 17:02:37 GMT -8
I have been repeatedly reading the King James Bible for over 10 years and ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is not found. In my estimation someone has to introduce you to this extra-biblical doctrine.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 13, 2022 17:23:58 GMT -8
Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
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