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Post by Obadiah on Jul 30, 2022 6:21:22 GMT -8
Some interesting debates: NOTE: I do not fully support the anti-OSAS views in all their doctrine but they still make some good points. They look good. I'm still on the 1st one. I always did like Dr. James White and your right I like the approach they are using. I was not taught OSAS. The first 15 years of my salvation I thought you could lose your salvation. And thought I probably had. I thought if anyone could lose their salvation it would be me. I did a lot of "like a dog returning to its own vomit". It really saddened and grieved me. One day I found these cardboard boxes filled with cassette tapes in the attic of this old church. They were recorded sermons by this old pastor from the Billy Graham era. This was like 25 years ago. Anyway, I'm looking through them and find some about how a true believer will never lose their salvation. BAM...I hit the Mother Lode. I spent the next three day going over and over these tapes, praying and looking up all the scriptural references and on that third day it hit me like a flood. I felt like jumping up and running out to tell everyone the good news. That Jesus saves us completely. A pastor I did tell said to me that the Holy Spirit had reviled this truth to me. So you can see how this topic is rather personal to me. It led me to the study of apologetics and has been one of my main focuses in my Christian studies. Now this is how it worked for me. How God deals with other believers and their faith walk is above my pay grade. But if someone thinks they are in the prosses of becoming Un-Saved and comes to me for counseling I have a very good track record of setting them straight. I've never run across anyone powerful enough to undo what Jesus has done. And this is why I will watch all three videos you linked. I'm sure I'll learn something I can use.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 7:25:10 GMT -8
There are other ways to find security and grace outside of OSAS/ES (using those two interchangeably). Why do I feel secure if I reject OSAS? I don't see at all how you can explain that if I need to listen to your tapes over and over to feel secure. I am going to say some things you could take personally if you wanted, but I don't mean them to be insulting. it is just the truth that I have observed. What you did was submit yourself to hearing the same thing over and over, which is how indoctrination works. Theo on CARM claims he found Calvinism by reading the Bible. He said this multiple times. But for some reason he never "saw" it in the Bible until he encountered James White. He didn't really find Calvinism in the Bible, someone told him that's what the Bible says, then he "looked up" the verses already being told how to interpret them. God could have spoken to you that ES is true without those tapes, assuming you even read the Bible. But until forceful repetition occurred, apparently the God who can make you eternally secure wasn't powerful enough to just tell you that you are secure through the Bible alone. I don't buy that at all. I once believed I committed the unpardonable sin, albeit under heavy delusion, but still I really believed it. And yet today I feel secure by the grace of God. And the very reason the motivation that drove you was thinking you were falling away and wanting to feel secure, is the wrong motivation to seek out a truth. You let a deceiving spirit in. The Bible just does not match OSAS on any level.
peace in Christ
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 8:45:52 GMT -8
I have a challenge for you.
Fast a day or however long you can, read nothing but warning passages in the Bible, and keep asking God "Does this only really apply to someone who isn't a Christian?"
It's very easy to derp around on debates and forums websites, but I meet very, very few who put the hard time of taking it to God in prayer.
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 30, 2022 8:49:48 GMT -8
There are other ways to find security and grace outside of OSAS/ES (using those two interchangeably). Why do I feel secure if I reject OSAS? I don't see at all how you can explain that if I need to listen to your tapes over and over to feel secure. I am going to say some things you could take personally if you wanted, but I don't mean them to be insulting. it is just the truth that I have observed. What you did was submit yourself to hearing the same thing over and over, which is how indoctrination works. Theo on CARM claims he found Calvinism by reading the Bible. He said this multiple times. But for some reason he never "saw" it in the Bible until he encountered James White. He didn't really find Calvinism in the Bible, someone told him that's what the Bible says, then he "looked up" the verses already being told how to interpret them. God could have spoken to you that ES is true without those tapes, assuming you even read the Bible. But until forceful repetition occurred, apparently the God who can make you eternally secure wasn't powerful enough to just tell you that you are secure through the Bible alone. I don't buy that at all. I once believed I committed the unpardonable sin, albeit under heavy delusion, but still I really believed it. And yet today I feel secure by the grace of God. And the very reason the motivation that drove you was thinking you were falling away and wanting to feel secure, is the wrong motivation to seek out a truth. You let a deceiving spirit in. The Bible just does not match OSAS on any level. peace in Christ Thats what I meant, how this works for different people. How we all view salvation in different ways. I hear what you are saying. I just finished the last video you linked. I really liked Matt Powell. He was very clear and precise. If our salvation is not secure, how could Jesus say about those to whom He gives eternal life, “and they shall never perish”? John 10:28 If even one man or woman receives eternal life and then forfeits it through sin or apostasy, will they not perish? And by doing so, do they not make Jesus’ words a lie? So, if there is a potential for losing salvation it would seem to be not only with those who have a rebellious heart toward God but with those who are innocently led astray by false doctrines as well. Paul expresses his amazement and concern over the Galatians “deserting” the truth and turning to “a different gospel” Gal. 1:6. They believed a lie. About this same group of deceived Christians. I'm a Paul guy and he later tells us, You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.... You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? Galatians 5:4-7 I like how Paul gets right to the point to describe the Galatians present status: They are “severed from Christ” and “fallen from grace.” A similar situation surfaces in Paul’s first letter to Timothy. Here Paul predicts that in the last days some believers will be tricked into following false doctrines: But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron. 1 Timothy 4:1–2. So once again the phrase “fall away” appears. Here the context clearly implies a turning away from the faith, a rejection of what was once fully embraced. In these last two examples, the believers in question did not fall into “sin” in the moral or ethical sense. They were simply deceived into believing something that was a distortion of the truth. Yet these passages seem to indicate that the consequence of their naivete was eternal damnation. So, I agree with you, we are definitely dealing with a lying, deceiving spirit. The good news is we know the truth and it has set us free.
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Post by Obadiah on Jul 30, 2022 9:16:14 GMT -8
I have a challenge for you. Fast a day or however long you can, read nothing but warning passages in the Bible, and keep asking God "Does this only really apply to someone who isn't a Christian?" It's very easy to derp around on debates and forums websites, but I meet very, very few who put the hard time of taking it to God in prayer. Thanks for your concern but trust me I'm way past that stage. I've put in 35 years on this topic. I'm just trying get this Forum going. I do not judge a brothers walk, if he really is a Christian or just wants fire insurance. Not my Job. The Bible says: Who are you to pass judgment on and censure another’s household servant? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he shall stand and be upheld, for the Master ( the Lord) is mighty to support him and make him stand. 5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 None of us lives to himself [but to the Lord], and none of us dies to himself [but to the Lord, for] 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or we die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For Christ died and lived again for this very purpose, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Romans 14:4–9 I'm fully convinced (satisfied) in my own mind.
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Post by civic on Aug 4, 2022 5:28:10 GMT -8
Ohhh, I asked Chalcedon who you are but I think he is busy right now, lol.
Man they deleted the post just because I quoted him, it's absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah, all that hostility is just not fun and not very loving.
I saw that. It was a good post. I asked Chalcedon to start a thread here about the character and attributes of God. I'm planning to set this Saturday aside and upload some of those types of materials. I will start out with a few of these: The Trinity The Deity of Christ The humanity of Christ The Bodily Resurrection, Ascension and 2nd Coming of Christ The Gospel essential The paper on Jesus being forsaken And a couple on the differences between calvinism and mainstream Christianity from a historical perspective.
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Post by civic on Aug 4, 2022 5:49:42 GMT -8
I have a challenge for you. Fast a day or however long you can, read nothing but warning passages in the Bible, and keep asking God "Does this only really apply to someone who isn't a Christian?" It's very easy to derp around on debates and forums websites, but I meet very, very few who put the hard time of taking it to God in prayer. Yes I have been a once saved always saved eternal security guy my entire life and I'm just now rethinking that position. Its a hard one for me to reconsider since I've been a strong believer in it from the eternal life perspective. So using that as my premise I have always been able to look at all the warning passages and justify the not applying to " genuine believers" . But just recently I have been looking into this more in depth keeping an "open " mind. The warning passages make absolutely no sense unless they were intended for believers. So I'm wrestling with this as we speak and sometimes it takes a while to "unlearn" what I believed and have been taught in the past. Deconstructing ones faith/doctrines is not an easy process. And most are unwilling to do such a thing having their line drawn in the sand with every doctrine they have believed to be true. I will give you 2 examples on things that I questioned that I was taught and everyone takes for granted is true without questioning its validity. 1- where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name I am in their midst. Matthew 18. Everyone says in their prayer group or sunday church gathering Jesus is with them by quoting this verse when it has nothing whatsoever to do with Him being with believers in a fellowship gathering. It has to do with the principle established by God in the law that you need 2 or 3 witnesses to bring a legal charge against someone so that they are not being falsely accused . Jesus is using that established principle to confront and restore a sinning brother. 2- and Jesus famous quote of Psalm 22:1- My God My god why have to forsaken Me. Many teach the Father turned His back on the Son for several hours on the cross as He was bearing the sins of the world because the Father cannot look upon sin or allow sin in His presence. My paper dismantles everything we have been mislead to believe about that time with Jesus on the cross. 3- So now when I'm studying or reexamining what I believe I take everything back to the nature and character of God and see how it aligns with His attributes. Theology is after-all the study of God. And God has given us all we need to know about His nature and character in Scripture. conclusion: deconstruction can be a difficult journey that many are not willing to take or be open to examine their doctrines. But once you do it in one area it becomes easier to do it in other areas. I think its necessary to be growing and learning in our faith. We should always be "reforming" as God teaches us new things. And having an open mind is the beginning point. As a staunch Calvinist I was closed minded until I began to question things I was taught about God to see if they were actually true and in Scripture. hope this helps !!!
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 4, 2022 6:45:38 GMT -8
If a Christian does not want to risk falling away or their love going cold Jesus gave us the sure-fire remedy. It's in the Bible. You must abide in Jesus. Some translations say remain, but I like abide as "live" in Jesus and His love.
John.15 [1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. [9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. [10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. [12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. [15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. [16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [17] These things I command you, that ye love one another. [18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. [20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. [21] But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. [22] If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. [23] He that hateth me hateth my Father also. [24] If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. [25] But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. [26] But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: [27] And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 4, 2022 21:27:02 GMT -8
legally Christ made possible for Us who are His to be rescued from this earth …
the ‘i am saved already… so then go enjoy this fleshbody and its needs and wants’ doesn’t make sense…
what we belonging to Him wait for is our transfiguration, resurrection … when we can be back with Him in eden paradise and out of this ghastly fleshbody (paul’s term)
until we are with Him in paradise again and all what adam did to us is Undone is all we wait for ..soon
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2022 21:58:39 GMT -8
I'm fully convinced (satisfied) in my own mind.
Have you ever once, in all those 35 years, taken a time deliberately and directly, to not read any books or sermons, and just fast and pray to ask God what the truth is?
This is not a "gotcha" question. I am genuinely asking if you ever remember doing that.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 5, 2022 5:00:55 GMT -8
legally Christ made possible for Us who are His to be rescued from this earth … the ‘i am saved already… so then go enjoy this fleshbody and its needs and wants’ doesn’t make sense… what we belonging to Him wait for is our transfiguration, resurrection … when we can be back with Him in eden paradise and out of this ghastly fleshbody (paul’s term) until we are with Him in paradise again and all what adam did to us is Undone is all we wait for ..soon Yes, that will be the day. And we are closer to it that when we first began.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 5, 2022 5:56:56 GMT -8
I'm fully convinced (satisfied) in my own mind.
Have you ever once, in all those 35 years, taken a time deliberately and directly, to not read any books or sermons, and just fast and pray to ask God what the truth is?
This is not a "gotcha" question. I am genuinely asking if you ever remember doing that.
I have been thinking about this since your post to me and the one Chalcedon posted yesterday and I have come this far... I think it is posable to become apostate, fallaway, your love for God to grow cold and be in danger of losing one's salvation. To be deceived, for the enemy to have a stronghold of deception in your mind. Now if you die in that state of unbelief after calming to being a Child of God at some point in your life would you get the dreaded words "Depart from me, I never knew you". I'll Keep an open mind on this topic and Yes I have a few book and I have talked to a few pastors. I did a 3 day fast and some hardcore praying and was amazed how God answered my prayers. The takeaway was I have the Holy Spirit. “He Will Teach You All Things” John 14:26 But the advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we begin to learn what exactly the Word tells us to do, It is the gift of God to have the Holy Spirit in us. This is a personal issue for me. As in: Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.—Php 2:12-13. I'm not talking about works salvation more like to work out your salvation with fear and trembling is simply to work out what God has already worked in. God has worked salvation in us. I'm going along with His plan, my way never works. I do apricate you concern and I'm open to any and all other thoughts on this topic.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 5, 2022 6:02:43 GMT -8
I have a challenge for you. Fast a day or however long you can, read nothing but warning passages in the Bible, and keep asking God "Does this only really apply to someone who isn't a Christian?" It's very easy to derp around on debates and forums websites, but I meet very, very few who put the hard time of taking it to God in prayer. Yes I have been a once saved always saved eternal security guy my entire life and I'm just now rethinking that position. Its a hard one for me to reconsider since I've been a strong believer in it from the eternal life perspective. So using that as my premise I have always been able to look at all the warning passages and justify the not applying to " genuine believers" . But just recently I have been looking into this more in depth keeping an "open " mind. The warning passages make absolutely no sense unless they were intended for believers. So I'm wrestling with this as we speak and sometimes it takes a while to "unlearn" what I believed and have been taught in the past. Deconstructing ones faith/doctrines is not an easy process. And most are unwilling to do such a thing having their line drawn in the sand with every doctrine they have believed to be true. I will give you 2 examples on things that I questioned that I was taught and everyone takes for granted is true without questioning its validity. 1- where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name I am in their midst. Matthew 18. Everyone says in their prayer group or sunday church gathering Jesus is with them by quoting this verse when it has nothing whatsoever to do with Him being with believers in a fellowship gathering. It has to do with the principle established by God in the law that you need 2 or 3 witnesses to bring a legal charge against someone so that they are not being falsely accused . Jesus is using that established principle to confront and restore a sinning brother. 2- and Jesus famous quote of Psalm 22:1- My God My god why have to forsaken Me. Many teach the Father turned His back on the Son for several hours on the cross as He was bearing the sins of the world because the Father cannot look upon sin or allow sin in His presence. My paper dismantles everything we have been mislead to believe about that time with Jesus on the cross. 3- So now when I'm studying or reexamining what I believe I take everything back to the nature and character of God and see how it aligns with His attributes. Theology is after-all the study of God. And God has given us all we need to know about His nature and character in Scripture. conclusion: deconstruction can be a difficult journey that many are not willing to take or be open to examine their doctrines. But once you do it in one area it becomes easier to do it in other areas. I think its necessary to be growing and learning in our faith. We should always be "reforming" as God teaches us new things. And having an open mind is the beginning point. As a staunch Calvinist I was closed minded until I began to question things I was taught about God to see if they were actually true and in Scripture. hope this helps !!! Yes, I love it. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect. Romans 12:2
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Post by gomer on Aug 5, 2022 7:56:06 GMT -8
Here in John Jesus tells us, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one”. John 10:27-30 Here are five distinct points made by Jesus: 1. His sheep hear His voice. 2. He knows them. 3. They follow Him. 4. He gives them eternal life. 5. They shall never perish because: a. His Father gave them to Him; b. No one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand because He is greater than all; c. He and the Father are One; therefore, no one can snatch them out of His hand either. Could eternal security be more clearly stated? The category of “no one” is every believer, no believer is excluded from this category. So no one, not even the believer, can take himself from the Father’s hand. If we examine other translations, we again see the emphasis of this passage. The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28: “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed. And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” My personal favorite, Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament renders it, “And they shall positively not perish, never.” Again, what could be clearer? If one must meet necessary conditions (being a sheep that hears and follows Christ) in order to initially gain the promise of eternal life, then it only makes sense that one must CONTINUE to meet those same conditions of hearing and following in order to maintain that promise of eternal life. That's why both verbs 'hear' and 'follow' are after all in the present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. Therefore it makes sense if one quits meeting these necessary conditions of hearing and following then one loses the promise of eternal life. Jesus never made His gift of eternal life unconditional no matter how the Christian lives as Jn 10:27-28 shows. Jesus did make it a certainty that as long as one continues to hear and follow, it is a certainty he will never perish or be plucked out of God's hand. Yet that certainty is based upon the condition one continues to hear and follow. Therefore I can know with certainty that as long as I hear and follow Christ I will never perish and I have that certainty apart from the teaching of eternal security which leaves false certainty that one can quit hearing and following turning to live in sin yet be saved anyway as Charles Stanley wrongly teaches.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 5, 2022 10:55:14 GMT -8
Here in John Jesus tells us, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one”. John 10:27-30 Here are five distinct points made by Jesus: 1. His sheep hear His voice. 2. He knows them. 3. They follow Him. 4. He gives them eternal life. 5. They shall never perish because: a. His Father gave them to Him; b. No one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand because He is greater than all; c. He and the Father are One; therefore, no one can snatch them out of His hand either. Could eternal security be more clearly stated? The category of “no one” is every believer, no believer is excluded from this category. So no one, not even the believer, can take himself from the Father’s hand. If we examine other translations, we again see the emphasis of this passage. The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28: “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed. And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” My personal favorite, Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament renders it, “And they shall positively not perish, never.” Again, what could be clearer? If one must meet necessary conditions (being a sheep that hears and follows Christ) in order to initially gain the promise of eternal life, then it only makes sense that one must CONTINUE to meet those same conditions of hearing and following in order to maintain that promise of eternal life. That's why both verbs 'hear' and 'follow' are after all in the present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. Therefore it makes sense if one quits meeting these necessary conditions of hearing and following then one loses the promise of eternal life. Jesus never made His gift of eternal life unconditional no matter how the Christian lives as Jn 10:27-28 shows. Jesus did make it a certainty that as long as one continues to hear and follow, it is a certainty he will never perish or be plucked out of God's hand. Yet that certainty is based upon the condition one continues to hear and follow. Therefore I can know with certainty that as long as I hear and follow Christ I will never perish and I have that certainty apart from the teaching of eternal security which leaves false certainty that one can quit hearing and following turning to live in sin yet be saved anyway as Charles Stanley wrongly teaches. I'm going to start a thread "Lordship Salvation" this weekend, witch I'm all for. It will cover abiding in Christ. I'm rethinking my position on OSAS and how it works out in the life of a believer. I agree with your post, and as long as I abide in Christ I'm Saved. I think the Hold Spirit helps me remain in Him. Thanks for you input. Shazam...
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