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Post by Obadiah on Aug 19, 2022 7:18:19 GMT -8
Good post I like it! "A little healthy uncertainty is a sounder, humbler, and more balanced approach," as long as it leads one to remain, abide in Christ. Works for me. A little healthy uncertainty is a sounder, humbler, and more balanced approach, based on our own weaknesses, limitations, and proclivity for sin while always acknowledging in this question Gods goodness, trustworthiness, and desire for all to be saved. Words of wisdom!J. Yup, Thats why I come here ... to learn stuff. Iron sharping Iron. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 19, 2022 7:56:36 GMT -8
Yup, Thats why I come here ... to learn stuff. Iron sharping Iron. Amen, and I am weary of people who have all the answers to life's questions, at the moment I am struggling of the assurance re my salvation. J. I'm sure you fill find the right answer. Nice new pic of Rocky. Isn't that the whole theme behind rocky, To never give up? You got this! Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 19, 2022 8:08:21 GMT -8
I'm sure you fill find the right answer. Nice new pic of Rocky. Isn't that the whole theme behind rocky, To never give up? You got this! Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Yes, to never give up. There's a reason why I chose this avatar. Shalom my brother J. I liked the other one also as you could see the Cross, he had on. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 19, 2022 8:09:35 GMT -8
As long as the Christian continues to walk in the light (1 Jn 1:7) he can be assured of his salvation. As long as the Christian continues to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) he can be assured of his salvation. If the Christians casts aside his faith, turns from walking in the light he can be assured of being lost. Problem is that most believers are not sure, or do not have the assurance of their salvation, my brother. And that includes myself. I stumbled upon a site that is not Calvinistic a couple days ago and there is a feast re the assurance any believer can have. If you are interested in perusing this site...https://www.preceptaustin.org/..and give me your review. Regards J. There is no reason for lack of assurance for the Christian who CONTINUES to believe, CONTINUES to walk in the like and CONTINUES to remain faithful unto death. 1 Jn 2:5 " But whoso keepeth (present tense) his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." Nowhere in the Bible is the Christian's knowledge/assurance of salvation based on the idea of unconditional salvation no matter how the Christian lives, no matter what the Christian does. But knowledge and assurance is based upon keeping a faithful obedience to God knowing God forgives sins when the Christian faithfully repents. " Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Pet 1:10) Not falling is not base upon some unconditional guarantee of salvation that was never given the Christian, but based upon the Christian giving diligence in making his calling and election sure. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 19, 2022 10:59:52 GMT -8
There is no reason for lack of assurance for the Christian who CONTINUES to believe, CONTINUES to walk in the like and CONTINUES to remain faithful unto death. 1 Jn 2:5 " But whoso keepeth (present tense) his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." Nowhere in the Bible is the Christian's knowledge/assurance of salvation based on the idea of unconditional salvation no matter how the Christian lives, no matter what the Christian does. But knowledge and assurance is based upon keeping a faithful obedience to God knowing God forgives sins when the Christian faithfully repents. " Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Pet 1:10) Not falling is not base upon some unconditional guarantee of salvation that was never given the Christian, but based upon the Christian giving diligence in making his calling and election sure. No review? Conditional...unconditional? The example of Messiah in asking, answering questions... 339questionsjesusasked.com/english/hcscchurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/100-Questions-that-Jesus-asked-and-YOU-must-answer.pdfHope this will be helpful. J. I took a quick peek at this site, it has a nice look to it but I do not agree with the teachings it promotes. ============================ hcscchurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/100-Questions-that-Jesus-asked-and-YOU-must-answer.pdfThis would make for a good study as long as people turn to the verses cited and read the entire context in which the question was asked. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 20, 2022 2:35:59 GMT -8
www.preceptaustin.org/I took a quick peek at this site, it has a nice look to it but I do not agree with the teachings it promotes. You do not agree with the teachings and promises? Please, tell me why you would disagree with sound teaching or what are the teachings that you do not agree with? J. From the quick look I took, one thing is it denies that water baptism is essential to salvation. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 20, 2022 4:30:00 GMT -8
From the quick look I took, one thing is it denies that water baptism is essential to salvation. A quick look? I like the way Dr Wiersbe handles one baptism writing that "As far as the one body is concerned, there is one baptism—the baptism of the Spirit. But as far as local bodies of believers are concerned, there are two baptisms: the baptism of the Spirit, and water baptism. (Bible Exposition Commentary) Johnson has an interesting comment - "Does he mean water baptism, or does he mean the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Now, if he meant one water baptism, one might ask the question, “Well, why didn’t he say anything about the Lord’s Supper? Why didn’t he say there is one baptism and one bread?” The context has to do with supernatural things. Immaterial things. So, my being as dogmatic as I customarily am, I think this is more likely to be baptism of the Holy Spirit: the one activity of the Holy Spirit that has brought us into unity with one another and with our Lord. I don’t like to de-emphasize water baptism. That’s very important. Every believer who believes in Christ ought to be baptized in water. There’s a Methodist preacher who commented that John Bunyan was a great and strict baptist but he got Christian to the holy city without once baptizing him. That’s true. Baptism does not save. But baptism is to be the experience of the believing Christian. (Unity of the Body)
One needs to be careful as to the exact import of this baptism. John’s words as given in the A.V. of Matthew 3:11, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance,” make the rite the cause of repentance in the heart of the individual who is baptized. This is due to an unfortunate translation of eis which has various uses. A comparison of this passage with Matthew 12:41 where the same preposition eis is translated “at,” namely, “the men of Nineveh repented at, (because of) the preaching of Jonah,” makes it clear that John said, “Repent, and be baptized because of the remission of sins.” The same holds true of Peter’s words in Acts 2:38, where the same preposition is used. This is confirmed by the context in Matthew (Mt 3:7–9) where John refuses to baptize the Pharisees and Sadducees because they did not show evidence of repentance. This is also shown to be the correct interpretation and translation of eis here, by the testimony of Josephus who declared that John taught the Jews that the rite of baptism would not wash away sins, but was for those who had already had their souls purified beforehand. Thus, we have here the import of water baptism. Submission to this rite is the testimony of the person to the fact that he has been saved.
1 Peter 3:21-note Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Wuest: Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.” Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience. But he defines what he means by salvation, in the words “the answer of a good conscience toward God,” and he explains how this is accomplished, namely “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” in that the believing sinner is identified with Him in that resurrection.
On the other hand Paul spoke a number of times about "waterless" baptism...
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus (not into water but into Christ and His death) have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with (one of those verbs beginning with sun- as Paul frequently uses in Ephesians - click here) Him through baptism into death, in order that (purpose clause) as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness (new in quality, brand new) of life. (See notes Romans 6:3; 6:4)
For by one Spirit we were all (all believers without exception) baptized (aorist tense = past action) into one body (the body of Christ), whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all (all believers without exception have the Spirit) made to drink of one Spirit (A reference to the Spirit's living and dwelling within us as in John 7:37-39). (1Cor 12:13)
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ (not into water - this is a spiritual - Spirit-baptism bringing believers into identification and living union with Christ) have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)
and in Him (Christ) you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. (See notes Colossians 2:10; 2:11; 2:12)
James Montgomery Boice explains baptizo writing that "The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo ) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism... mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with Him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!"
There is the controversial topic on the "law" and now "water baptism"
www.preceptaustin.org/ephesians_44-6#:~:text=Ephesians%204%3A4%2D6%20Commentary
Let's open a thread on "water baptism" and see whether it is an Imperative, or not.
Is water baptism the CAUSE of our salvation?
J.The one baptism of Eph 4 is the water baptism of Christ's great commission that saves, that is commanded to all men, was administered by humans, is to be taught and lasts till the end of time. None of these things are true with baptism with the HS. All the conversions in Acts were by water baptism. Baptism with the HS was a prophecy of Joel that was fulfilled some 2000 years ago and does not even exist today. Proper exegesis requires words be taken by their literal meaning unless the context proves otherwise: F.F. Bruce: “ baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106). There is nothing in the context of Eph 4:5 that baptism is being used in any figurative way, therefore it refers to a literal immersion in water.....a literal 'burial' from which one is 'raised up from' (Rom 6:3-5) " If the ‘one baptism’ here had meant Spirit-baptism to the exclusion of water-baptism, it would surely have been associated with ‘one Spirit’ and not ‘one Lord." (Bruce; Epistle to the Ephesians; pgs 79-80) The one Lord, one faith, one baptism is also found in Mark 16:16 where the one Lord spoke of the one faith and one baptism that saves. Lastly, from the context of the Ephesian epistle, those Ephesians were water baptized: ---Eph 1:1-9 Paul multiple times says those Ephesians were spiritually located "in Christ" and water baptism is how one gets into Christ, Gal 3:27. No verse says baptism with the HS gets one into Christ. ---Paul water baptized some of the Ephesians in the name of Christ, Acts 19:5. Baptism in the name of Christ is Christ's baptism of the great commission that had humans water baptizing, Acts 2:38 cf Acts 10:47-48. ---Those Ephesians were saved through faith Eph 2:8: Eph 2:8-------- faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves 1 Pet 3:21----- baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves Since there is just one way to be saved then those Ephesians faith must have included water baptism that saves. No verse says baptism with the HS saves. ---- Jn 3:5------------Spirit ++++++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom/saved 1 Cor 12:13-----Spirit ++++++++++++ baptized >>>>>>>>enter the kingdom/saved Eph 5:26--------the word +++++++++ washing of water >>> cleansed/saved Tts 3:5----------Holy Spirit ++++++++ washing of regen. >>>>saved Water is equivalent to baptized that is equivalent to washing of water which is equivalent to washing of regeneration Since there is just one way to be saved, then water baptism is clearly the means by which those Ephesians were saved as all others in the NT gospel were saved. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 20, 2022 4:48:58 GMT -8
One needs to be careful as to the exact import of this baptism. John’s words as given in the A.V. of Matthew 3:11, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance,” make the rite the cause of repentance in the heart of the individual who is baptized. This is due to an unfortunate translation of eis which has various uses. A comparison of this passage with Matthew 12:41 where the same preposition eis is translated “at,” namely, “the men of Nineveh repented at, (because of) the preaching of Jonah,” makes it clear that John said, “Repent, and be baptized because of the remission of sins.” The same holds true of Peter’s words in Acts 2:38, where the same preposition is used. This is confirmed by the context in Matthew (Mt 3:7–9) where John refuses to baptize the Pharisees and Sadducees because they did not show evidence of repentance. This is also shown to be the correct interpretation and translation of eis here, by the testimony of Josephus who declared that John taught the Jews that the rite of baptism would not wash away sins, but was for those who had already had their souls purified beforehand. Thus, we have here the import of water baptism. Submission to this rite is the testimony of the person to the fact that he has been saved.
You only quoted PART of Matthew 3:11. The full verse reads: " I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" Many try and make the second pronoun "you" refer to themselves with no contextual facts and then completely ignore the first pronoun "you". Neither pronoun "you" refers to anyone today. To understand a context one must know who is speaking, who is being spoken to and what is being said. John is speaking to Pharisees who came to where John was water baptizing. Why would John say to these Pharisees "I baptize you with water" when in fact John did not baptize the Pharisees with water, the Pharisees rejected John's baptism (Luke 7:30). It is therefore apparent John is using both pronouns "you" in a generic sense. John is not referring to anyone in his audience specifically with either "you" but is simply announcing the type of baptism he baptized with and the type of baptisms Christ would baptize with. There is a saying that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Neither pronoun 'you' refer to anyone specifically but are used in a generic sense. From the immediate context of Matt 3:11 it is not told who Christ would baptize with the Holy Ghost. But if we look at the fulfillment of John's words in Mt 3:11 in Acts 1:1-5. Jesus is with just His Apostles and refers to John's words of Mt 3:11 in Acts 1:5. So the fulfillment of John's words in Acts 1:1-5 we can see the second "you" of Matt 3:11 is the Apostles for it was just the Apostles here Christ was promising baptism with the HS to fulfill the promise that the Apostles would be given the Comforter inspiring the Apostles in what they spoke and in bringing all things to their remembrance. Therefore the first pronoun "you" refers to no one today as the second pronoun "you" refers to anyone today. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 20, 2022 5:11:35 GMT -8
It has NEVER been proven that the Greek word 'eis' means because. That fallacy has been refuted many, many times over the years. Matt 26:28 " For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for (eis) the remission of sins." Here in Mt 26:28 we have the same phrase in the Greek and English as in Acts 2:38. If 'eis' means 'because' then Jesus shed His blood BECAUSE sins have already been remitted which creates an impossibility (Heb 9:22) =========== Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to (eis) the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Did Noah build an ark because he was ALREADY saved from a flood that had not even occurred? No, he built the ark in order to be saved. ========== Acts 2:38 Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized. --the fact baptism is commanded makes it necessary if for no other reason. Disobedience to God's commands is working UNrighteousness while obeying God's commands is working righteousness (Acts 10:35) whereby is accepted with God. ---repent is connected to baptize by the conjunction "and" making them both of equal importance and necessity in having remission of sins. If one need not be baptized to be saved then he does not need to repent either. Furthermore, if 'eis' means 'because' and since repent is connected to baptize with the conjunction "and" that would mean one would repent because one is already saved...which makes no sense. ---if 'eis' means because then that would mean those Jews were saved prior to verse 38. Why then does Peter tell them to 'save yourselves' in v40 if they were already saved prior to v38? If they were saved prior to verse 38, can you pinpoint for me the verse where those Jews were saved and why/how were they saved at that particular point?---Acts 2:41 " Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:" The logical implication is rejecting Peter's words is rejecting baptism. Those that rejected being baptized rejected Peter's words. Being water baptized is HOW mwan receive the gospel word, (Acts 8:12-14) (Acts 10:47-48 cf Acts 11:1) ---Peter in Acts 2:21 quoted Joel's prophecy that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall b e saved 1) calling on the name of the Lord means DOING what the Lord says to do (Lk 6:46) and the Lord commanded men to do BOTH repentance AND water baptism. Rejecting water baptism is rejecting what the Lord said to do, rejecting water baptism is NOT receiving the gospel word. 2) Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in v38: call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved repent and be baptized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/remitted sins Does one call upon the name of the Lord BECAUSE one is ALREADY saved prior to doing what the Lord said or does one call upon the name of the Lord IN ORDER to be saved? Obviously one calls upon the name of the Lord in ORDER to be saved. Since the prophecy is IN ORDER to be saved then the fulfillment of that prophecy must also be IN ORDER to have remission of sins/saved. Again, the Lord commanded repent AND be baptized with the conjunction "and" along with the imperative mood making baptism just as equal and necessary to salvation as repentance. ================== Mt 21:41 Nineveh was living in rebellion to God hence God sends Jonah there to teach them to repent of their sins. Their repentance would bring about a reformed life having turned away from their sins...which they did do the work of repentance (Jonah 3:9-10). Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah, that is, they repented in order that their lives conform to the righteous preaching of Jonah. .....“preaching” is put for the course of life required by the preaching": "The preposition here rendered “at” is eis, which usually means “into.” Some writers have contended that it here means “because of,” or “in consequence of,” a meaning quite foreign to the word. It is true, as a matter of fact, that the Ninevites repented in consequence of the preaching of Jonah; but had it been the purpose of the writer to express this thought, he would have used the preposition dia instead of eis. The thought of the passage is quite distinct from this. They repented into the preaching of Jonah. This is not idiomatic English, but it conveys the exact thought a Greek would derive from the original. The term “preaching” is put for the course of life required by the preaching, and it is asserted that they repented into this. Their repentance, in other words, brought them into the course of life required by the preaching, and it is asserted that they repented into this," (JW McGarvey; NT Commentary, Matthew & Mark; 1875, 113)." (my emp) www.christiancourier.com/articles/1152-the-use-of-the-preposition-eis-in-matthew-12-41--- |
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Post by Admin on Aug 20, 2022 6:13:28 GMT -8
gomerI notice my post to you has "strike through lines"...don't know what this is. J. That's weird I'll see if I can fix it. Ok I was able so fix it. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 20, 2022 7:42:15 GMT -8
Oh I am convinced that Messiah knew all about context gomer , Perfect Tense. J. I downloaded the pdf and I like it as it is "Questions-that-Jesus-asked" and we can ponder them and think about our response. Here is question number one from the PDF file 1. “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?” Matthew 5:13 |
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Post by gomer on Aug 20, 2022 7:49:10 GMT -8
Oh I am convinced that Messiah knew all about context gomer , Perfect Tense. J. The people reading the questions need to make sure they have the question in the context in which the question was asked. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 20, 2022 7:51:51 GMT -8
gomer Here is the biblical method of baptism Barry Smith See if we agree on this. J. Yes, baptism is a burial, (Rom 6:3-5) and not a sprinkling or pouring. |
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e v e
Full Member
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Post by e v e on Aug 20, 2022 9:15:33 GMT -8
the saving of His 144k is at the Change,
and after that, Christ returns to get Jacob (many believers) during trib.
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Post by gomer on Aug 20, 2022 9:24:43 GMT -8
Yes, baptism is a burial, (Rom 6:3-5) and not a sprinkling or pouring. Now, is there any saving efficacy in water? Is water baptism the CAUSE of our salvation gomer ? There is no saving efficacy in water. Just as there was not any healing efficacy of water in healing Naaman of his disease when he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river. It was because of Naaman's obedience in dipping that GOD HEALED Naaman. Likewise, when one obeys God by submitting to water baptism, it is God Who is doing the work in cutting away the body of sin (Col 2:11-12). The water does nothing but it is the act of obeying in submitting to water baptism that God saves/remits sins. Therefore God saves, but since God saves only those who obediently submit to Him in water baptism it can be said that baptism saves, (1 Pet 3:21). Hence Peter told those in Acts 2 to "save yourselves". Obviously they could not save themselves by themselves but they could save themselves in the sense by doing what God commanded by being water baptized where then God cuts away the body of sin. Therefore salvation is not monergistic as Calvinism claims but man has a role in his own salvation thereby when man fulfills that role he is in that sense 'save yourselves' Acts 2:40 "cleansed ourselves" (2 Cor 7:1), "see you have purified your souls" (1 Pet 1:22), etc. |
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