Yes, that certainly sounds like Calvinism, but not sure what you believe.
To: charlie24
I was pointing out the Perseverance of the Saints found in Calvinism. Known as the P in Tulip. It is not the only way to look at Eternal Security. It may sound like it's the same thing but it's not. OSAS is not the same as Perseverance of the Saints either. Take a look at the firsts few pages of this thread where I get into this. Here berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/2
.....Lot constantly went against the Ways and the Desires Of God.....He did Wrong constantly.....yet , his Soul was Saved because of his Faith in God....kinda like us.....
No.
Not at all “like us”.
We have the gospel to believe in our lifetime.
Lot wasn’t saved in his lifetime until Christ died and preached the gospel to him :
“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)
Yes, salvation is not possible apart from obedience to God.
The despicable life of Lot shows that Faith trumps Disobedience.....Lot constantly went against the Ways and the Desires Of God....Yet he was a Saved man and even referred to as a “ Hero Of Faith” in the Book Of Hebrews.....He did Wrong constantly and paid for his wicked ways in his lifetime.....yet , his Soul was Saved because of his Faith in God....kinda like us.....
Here is the latest Berean Apologetics Ministry blog post "HOW TO LOSE YOUR SALVATION" not for the faint of heart!
I'd like to see an OSAS give me ONE SINGLE VERSE that clearly says you can NOT HAVE FAITH and be saved.
If God REALLY wanted people who reject faith in Christ to be COMPLETELY assured of their ETERNAL SECURITY:
THERE SHOULD BE THOUSANDS OF VERSES SAYING YOU CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT FAITH
And lots and lots of verses telling us that if we just believe ONE SINGLE TIME the rest of what we do does not matter concerning our destiny.
OSAS is a SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, and that why I encourage more praying to God tor remove the deceiving spirit and less constant echo chambers saying "peace, peace" when there is no peace.
The other "dark side" of OSAS, is basically to say "If you didn't bear enough fruit you were never saved."
THIS IS LOGICALLY NO DIFFERENT THAN WORKS SALVATION, it's just loading works through the "backdoor."
We aren't saved BY works but, you know, "Guido" is gonna come by and "make sure" you paid your spiritual "protection money."
If you don't produce enough good works, then you were never saved apart from works.... HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK?! Lol.
It's doublespeak, friends, and you will find doublespeak common in every false doctrine.
I'd like to see an OSAS give me ONE SINGLE VERSE that clearly says you can NOT HAVE FAITH and be saved.
If God REALLY wanted people who reject faith in Christ to be COMPLETELY assured of their ETERNAL SECURITY:
THERE SHOULD BE THOUSANDS OF VERSES SAYING YOU CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT FAITH
And lots and lots of verses telling us that if we just believe ONE SINGLE TIME the rest of what we do does not matter concerning our destiny.
OSAS is a SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, and that why I encourage more praying to God tor remove the deceiving spirit and less constant echo chambers saying "peace, peace" when there is no peace.
The other "dark side" of OSAS, is basically to say "If you didn't bear enough fruit you were never saved."
THIS IS LOGICALLY NO DIFFERENT THAN WORKS SALVATION, it's just loading works through the "backdoor."
We aren't saved BY works but, you know, "Guido" is gonna come by and "make sure" you paid your spiritual "protection money."
If you don't produce enough good works, then you were never saved apart from works.... HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK?! Lol.
It's doublespeak, friends, and you will find doublespeak common in every false doctrine.
You most certainly are not saved if you do not have faith. Thats called fire insurance. And if you are truly saved and abide in Christ you will make it all the way home. Works salvation is completely different. In WS you think you need to jump thru hoops and perform in some high and mighty way.
One of the chief accusations cited by those who embrace once saved always saved (also known as eternal security or the perseverance of the saints), is that their opposition is teaching a works salvation. In fact, it is now commonly believed that one either believes in once saved always saved (OSAS) or a works salvation!
If you believe that once saved always saved is a lie then that MUST mean we are saved by WORKS ... Right?
When Jesus became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), we inherited His righteousness. Salvation is a divine exchange: our tattered rags of self-effort for the perfection of Christ. Because His death and resurrection paid the price for our evil deeds, we can be declared perfect before God (Romans 5:1). We are told to “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” like a flawless garment (Romans 13:14).
Who in their right mind would return his flawless garment and want his tattered rags back?
Last Edit: Aug 18, 2022 12:42:42 GMT -8 by Obadiah
Yes, salvation is not possible apart from obedience to God.
The despicable life of Lot shows that Faith trumps Disobedience.....Lot constantly went against the Ways and the Desires Of God....Yet he was a Saved man and even referred to as a “ Hero Of Faith” in the Book Of Hebrews.....He did Wrong constantly and paid for his wicked ways in his lifetime.....yet , his Soul was Saved because of his Faith in God....kinda like us.....
It’s the old saying accepting Jesus as your “ savior “ but not as your Lord . But we cannot have one without the other and He is called Lord many more times than savior in scripture.
Yes, salvation is not possible apart from obedience to God.
The despicable life of Lot shows that Faith trumps Disobedience.....Lot constantly went against the Ways and the Desires Of God....Yet he was a Saved man and even referred to as a “ Hero Of Faith” in the Book Of Hebrews.....He did Wrong constantly and paid for his wicked ways in his lifetime.....yet , his Soul was Saved because of his Faith in God....kinda like us.....
It’s the old saying accepting Jesus as your “ savior “ but not as your Lord . But we cannot have one without the other and He is called Lord many more times than savior in scripture.
Submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior.
It’s the old saying accepting Jesus as your “ savior “ but not as your Lord . But we cannot have one without the other and He is called Lord many more times than savior in scripture.
Submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior.
I was pointing out the Perseverance of the Saints found in Calvinism. Known as the P in Tulip. It is not the only way to look at Eternal Security. It may sound like it's the same thing but it's not. OSAS is not the same as Perseverance of the Saints either. Take a look at the firsts few pages of this thread where I get into this. Here berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/2
The biblical doctrine of salvation is one of the many special aspects of Christian faith, and it serves to illustrate the uniqueness of the Christian faith compared to all other religions. There are only two religions in the world: the religion of grace and the religion of works. In essence, all non-Christian religions in the world, large and small, are religions of works. Only biblical Christianity teaches that salvation is a free gift resulting solely from God’s grace. This makes Christianity unlike any other religion that has ever existed, past or present. With this in mind it's easy to see how a works salvation will try to become part of our salvation.
Christian salvation is unique, but it is also not without controversy, even within the church. Different interpretations exist, for example, on the meaning of the doctrine of election and whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. This is what I want to take a look at in this thread.
If salvation can be lost, it is vital that Christians are not given a false sense of security. If salvation is secure, it is vital that Christians do not anguish over a nonexistent possibility.
If salvation is truly by grace, we think there can be only one possible resolution to the issue.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.
Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
Romans 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants—not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all
Romans 11:5-6 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace
Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.
Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
2 Timothy 1:9-10 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago, 10 and now has manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
Hebrews 6:13-20 13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14 saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15 And thus Abraham, having patiently endured, obtained the promise. 16 Men indeed swear by a greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he interposed with an oath, 18 so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible that God should prove false, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek
1 Peter 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials,
1 John 2:25 And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.
1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.
I like what Lewis Sperry Chafer says about this topic, “The truth of eternal security is inherent in the nature of salvation itself.”
As long as the will of man is involved, he can compromise his state of justice, his justified state, by living unjustly. To choose good over evil isn’t summed up by the term faith, but includes walking in Gods ways after we become His child. And we cannot perfectly predict our own perseverance in this matter. A little healthy uncertainty is a sounder, humbler, and more balanced approach, based on our own weaknesses, limitations, and proclivity for sin while always acknowledging in this question Gods goodness, trustworthiness, and desire for all to be saved.
People who fell away bore some visible fruit, even as much as current OSAS believers in many instances.
How do OSAS believers even know they are saved or if they have fake fruit and will one day find out they are not saved?
Remember when some of us were Calvinists and now argue that you can't even know you're not a vessel of wrath under Calvinism?
OSAS has the exact same problem—it encourages you to measure how saved you are by how much fruit you bear, denies the fruit of all who fall away, and in the end there is no way to even know your fruit is good enough.
How do you OSAS believers currently know you won't one day realize you were never even saved?
For those of us who actually BELIEVE salvation is NOT by works, it doesn't matter how much fruit we bear.
We KNOW we are saved because we have FAITH in the Cross.
Last Edit: Aug 18, 2022 21:40:06 GMT -8 by Deleted
I was pointing out the Perseverance of the Saints found in Calvinism. Known as the P in Tulip. It is not the only way to look at Eternal Security. It may sound like it's the same thing but it's not. OSAS is not the same as Perseverance of the Saints either. Take a look at the firsts few pages of this thread where I get into this. Here berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/2
ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED? a variation of eternal security, a teaching often called “once saved, always saved.”
Once Saved Always Saved PROVED!
I certainly do agree in eternal security, as long as faith is in tact. I don't want to argue OSAS, on the other thread I have avoided it.
The only way I will argue it is with a Calvinist, in his way of OSAS.
Harry Ironsides was a great man of Faith and a Brilliant Teacher of God's Word....May I suggest that people google this—— “ Harry Ironside Gospel”.....I wish That I had been made aware of this teaching 60 years ago....
Yes, salvation is not possible apart from obedience to God.
The despicable life of Lot shows that Faith trumps Disobedience.....Lot constantly went against the Ways and the Desires Of God....Yet he was a Saved man and even referred to as a “ Hero Of Faith” in the Book Of Hebrews.....He did Wrong constantly and paid for his wicked ways in his lifetime.....yet , his Soul was Saved because of his Faith in God....kinda like us.....
The Bible teaches "obedience unto righteousness" and NOT disobedience unto righteousness. Hence the disobedient will be lost having served "sin unto death" (Rom 6:16).
If the disobedient are saved and the obedient are saved then ALL universally will be saved since all men are either obeying or disobeying Christ.
Yet all the disobedient will be lost, all who lived during Noah's time were all lost due to their disobedience, wickedness except Noah and his family. Was Noah perfectly sinless, perfectly obedient? No, he committed sins but he was obedient enough to God that God saw Noah as being righteous. David was called a man after God's own heart yet David disobeyed and sinned. The same is true with Abraham and Moses for they too disobeyed God. God did not accept, bless their disobedience but just their obedience.
None lived a perfect sinless life. We are not told much about the life of Lot but what we are told about is about some sins he committed. Just because we are told about Lot's sins does not mean he did not live a righteous life for Peter did call Lot "righteous". Rahab was living a life as a prostitute yet she was justified by her obedient works but that does not mean God blessed, accepted her past sins as a prostitute. Just because we are told about a person's specific sins does not preclude that person from living a righteous life.
Compare Noah to Lot. Noah was living in a world surrounded by disobedient, evil people. Lot was living in a city surrounded by disobedient, evil people.
Neither Noah or Lot lived perfectly sinless lives. Yet Noah and Lot (2 Peter 2:7-8) separated themselves from the wickedness of those around them. Though Lot sinned in giving his daughters to those in Sodom, his sin was just as inexcusable as David's adultery and murder, Abraham lying about Sara being his wife, etc. Therefore when Peter declares Lot to be 'righteous', Peter is not saying Lot was perfectly sinless, but Lot kept himself from becoming corrupted by those around him (Gen 19:9)....as did Noah. Just because we are told about a few specific sins Lot committed does not in any way preclude him from living a righteous life. Because we are told about a few of the sins Lot committed, it cannot be ASSUMED Lot lived his whole life in sin, disobedience, unrighteousness.
The Bible teaches "obedience unto righteousness" and NOT disobedience unto righteousness. Hence the disobedient will be lost having served "sin unto death" (Rom 6:16).
If the disobedient are saved and the obedient are saved then ALL universally will be saved since all men are either obeying or disobeying Christ.
Yet all the disobedient will be lost, all who lived during Noah's time were all lost due to their disobedience, wickedness except Noah and his family. Was Noah perfectly sinless, perfectly obedient? No, he committed sins but he was obedient enough to God that God saw Noah as being righteous. David was called a man after God's own heart yet David disobeyed and sinned. The same is true with Abraham and Moses for they too disobeyed God. God did not accept, bless their disobedience but just their obedience.
None lived a perfect sinless life. We are not told much about the life of Lot but what we are told about is about some sins he committed. Just because we are told about Lot's sins does not mean he did not live a righteous life for Peter did call Lot "righteous". Rahab was living a life as a prostitute yet she was justified by her obedient works but that does not mean God blessed, accepted her past sins as a prostitute. Just because we are told about a person's specific sins does not preclude that person from living a righteous life.
Compare Noah to Lot. Noah was living in a world surrounded by disobedient, evil people. Lot was living in a city surrounded by disobedient, evil people.
Neither Noah or Lot lived perfectly sinless lives. Yet Noah and Lot (2 Peter 2:7-8) separated themselves from the wickedness of those around them. Though Lot sinned in giving his daughters to those in Sodom, his sin was just as inexcusable as David's adultery and murder, Abraham lying about Sara being his wife, etc. Therefore when Peter declares Lot to be 'righteous', Peter is not saying Lot was perfectly sinless, but Lot kept himself from becoming corrupted by those around him (Gen 19:9)....as did Noah. Just because we are told about a few specific sins Lot committed does not in any way preclude him from living a righteous life. Because we are told about a few of the sins Lot committed, it cannot be ASSUMED Lot lived his whole life in sin, disobedience, unrighteousness.
As long as the Christian continues to walk in the light (1 Jn 1:7) he can be assured of his salvation. As long as the Christian continues to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) he can be assured of his salvation. If the Christians casts aside his faith, turns from walking in the light he can be assured of being lost.
The biblical doctrine of salvation is one of the many special aspects of Christian faith, and it serves to illustrate the uniqueness of the Christian faith compared to all other religions. There are only two religions in the world: the religion of grace and the religion of works. In essence, all non-Christian religions in the world, large and small, are religions of works. Only biblical Christianity teaches that salvation is a free gift resulting solely from God’s grace. This makes Christianity unlike any other religion that has ever existed, past or present. With this in mind it's easy to see how a works salvation will try to become part of our salvation.
Christian salvation is unique, but it is also not without controversy, even within the church. Different interpretations exist, for example, on the meaning of the doctrine of election and whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. This is what I want to take a look at in this thread.
If salvation can be lost, it is vital that Christians are not given a false sense of security. If salvation is secure, it is vital that Christians do not anguish over a nonexistent possibility.
If salvation is truly by grace, we think there can be only one possible resolution to the issue.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.
Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
Romans 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants—not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all
Romans 11:5-6 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace
Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.
Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
2 Timothy 1:9-10 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago, 10 and now has manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
Hebrews 6:13-20 13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14 saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15 And thus Abraham, having patiently endured, obtained the promise. 16 Men indeed swear by a greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he interposed with an oath, 18 so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible that God should prove false, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek
1 Peter 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials,
1 John 2:25 And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.
1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.
I like what Lewis Sperry Chafer says about this topic, “The truth of eternal security is inherent in the nature of salvation itself.”
As long as the will of man is involved, he can compromise his state of justice, his justified state, by living unjustly. To choose good over evil isn’t summed up by the term faith, but includes walking in Gods ways after we become His child. And we cannot perfectly predict our own perseverance in this matter. A little healthy uncertainty is a sounder, humbler, and more balanced approach, based on our own weaknesses, limitations, and proclivity for sin while always acknowledging in this question Gods goodness, trustworthiness, and desire for all to be saved.
Good post I like it! "A little healthy uncertainty is a sounder, humbler, and more balanced approach," as long as it leads one to remain, abide in Christ. Works for me.
Admin: Drop by our new forum berean-apologetics.community.forum/ Help us develop it into a place where we are all comfortable sharing our thoughts about God and religion.
Jul 12, 2023 11:20:11 GMT -8
*
charismaticlady: First response : Test. Is this in response to the cult post?
Jul 12, 2023 16:46:40 GMT -8
charismaticlady: How do I edit?
Jul 12, 2023 16:47:41 GMT -8
makesends: shop talk: I can't seem to get anyone linked when I do the Admin or @civic or whoever, as I do on other sites. How does anyone know when I respond to them? And how can I know if they respond to me?
Jul 12, 2023 16:51:37 GMT -8
Obadiah: Come over to the new form it's a lot easier and you're probably used to that new program we're using.
Jul 13, 2023 6:50:18 GMT -8
civic: makesends we fixed all of that on the new forum. we just celebrated our 1 year anniversary and upgraded our forum /interface and we would love you to check it out and participate.
Berean Apologetics Ministry Lifting up Jesus berean-apologetics.community
Jul 29, 2023 15:15:10 GMT -8
*
