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Post by gomer on Aug 20, 2022 9:49:08 GMT -8
There is no saving efficacy in water. Just as there was not any healing efficacy of water in healing Naaman of his disease when he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river. It was because of Naaman's obedience in dipping that GOD HEALED Naaman. Likewise, when one obeys God by submitting to water baptism, it is God Who is doing the work in cutting away the body of sin (Col 2:11-12). The water does nothing but it is the act of obeying in submitting to water baptism that God saves/remits sins. Therefore God saves, but since God saves only those who obediently submit to Him in water baptism it can be said that baptism saves, (1 Pet 3:21). Hence Peter told those in Acts 2 to "save yourselves". Obviously they could not save themselves by themselves but they could save themselves in the sense by doing what God commanded by being water baptized where then God cuts away the body of sin. Therefore salvation is not monergistic as Calvinism claims but man has a role in his own salvation thereby when man fulfills that role he is in that sense 'save yourselves' Acts 2:40 "cleansed ourselves" (2 Cor 7:1), "see you have purified your souls" (1 Pet 1:22), etc. gomer , my brother, I am old school and know nothing re Calvin or any other ism or scism but I enjoy your post. J. I am not implying you are a Calvinist, I don't know what your theological background is. But I was pointing out monergism is not taught in the Bible. That salvation takes BOTH God and man for man to be saved. Therefore when man fulfills his role he is, in that sense, saving himself.
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 20, 2022 9:51:45 GMT -8
gomer , my brother, I am old school and know nothing re Calvin or any other ism or scism but I enjoy your post. J. I am not implying you are a Calvinist, I don't know what your theological background is. But I was pointing out monergism is not taught in the Bible. That salvation takes BOTH God and man for man to be saved. Therefore when man fulfills his role he is, in that sense, saving himself. no one really needs theologians... after all His souls can hear Him.. and not bother with the all the mumbo jumbo esau presents...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 5:38:24 GMT -8
If you and I have any part in maintaining our salvation, it will be difficult to live with much assurance because we blow it on a daily basis as we are told in 1 John 1:8-10. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Actually, the whole epistle of 1 John is about assure a group of people, that were in fact saved and had the assurance of eternal life: These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. —1 John 5:13 Where there is no assurance of God’s acceptance, there is no peace. Where there is no peace, there is no joy. Where there is no joy, there is a limitation on one’s ability to love unconditionally. Why? Because a person with no assurance is by definition partially motivated by fear. Fear and love do not mingle well. One will always dilute the other. Furthermore, fear spills over into worry. Let’s be realistic for a moment. If my salvation is not a settled issue, how can I be anxious for nothing as in Phil. 4:6? Do not fret or have any anxiety about anything, but in every circumstance and in everything, by prayer and petition (definite requests), with thanksgiving, continue to make your wants known to God. 7 And God’s peace [shall be yours, that tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and being content with its earthly lot of whatever sort that is, that peace] which transcends all understanding shall garrison and mount guard over your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. If Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost, and yet we can somehow become unsaved—and therefore undo what Christ came to do. I know of no one powerful enough to undo what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Also at stake here is the extent of God’s forgiveness. When Christ died, which of your sins did He die for? Which sins were you forgiven of when you trusted Him as Savior? If the sins you commit after becoming a Christian can annul your relationship with the Savior, clearly those sins were not covered at Calvary. Forgiven is forgiven. To differentiate between forgiven and unforgiven sins is to make a distinction foreign to Scripture. The timing of your sins is irrelevant since they were all in the future from the perspective of the Cross. To disregard eternal security is to take away from what happened at Calvary. Salvation by faith is at stake. Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. (That trick never works) In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:9 If salvation is not forever, salvation cannot be through faith alone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 10:42:57 GMT -8
Now, is there any saving efficacy in water? Is water baptism the CAUSE of our salvation gomer ? There is no saving efficacy in water. Just as there was not any healing efficacy of water in healing Naaman of his disease when he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river. It was because of Naaman's obedience in dipping that GOD HEALED Naaman. Likewise, when one obeys God by submitting to water baptism, it is God Who is doing the work in cutting away the body of sin (Col 2:11-12). The water does nothing but it is the act of obeying in submitting to water baptism that God saves/remits sins. Therefore God saves, but since God saves only those who obediently submit to Him in water baptism it can be said that baptism saves, (1 Pet 3:21). Hence Peter told those in Acts 2 to "save yourselves". Obviously they could not save themselves by themselves but they could save themselves in the sense by doing what God commanded by being water baptized where then God cuts away the body of sin. Therefore salvation is not monergistic as Calvinism claims but man has a role in his own salvation thereby when man fulfills that role he is in that sense 'save yourselves' Acts 2:40 "cleansed ourselves" (2 Cor 7:1), "see you have purified your souls" (1 Pet 1:22), etc. To say "There is no saving efficacy in water." is to say that water is not necessary for salvation. One must be clear when making comments. Since obedience is necessary for salvation then water baptism is necessary for salvation. Water baptism is not a show as many people claim. If it was then a person would remain wet forever to show he was baptized. How do we know a person was baptized if we were not present? Baptism is a command from our Lord.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 11:14:09 GMT -8
To say "There is no saving efficacy in water." is to say that water is not necessary for salvation. One must be clear when making comments. Since obedience is necessary for salvation then water baptism is necessary for salvation. Water baptism is not a show as many people claim. If it was then a person would remain wet forever to show he was baptized. How do we know a person was baptized if we were not present? Baptism is a command from our Lord. Was the repentant thief on the cross saved? 1) "And he said unto Jesus, Lord," (kai legen lesou) "And he said, Jesus," Savior or Deliverer, liberator, who sets men free from sin and death, Luk_4:18; Heb_2:14; Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36. He may have been encouraged by hearing Jesus pray for His murderers. 2) "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." (mnestheti mou horan elthes eis ten basilelan sou) "Remember me when you come into your kingdom," to intercede for sin, Heb_7:25; 1Jn_2:1-2. It was a cry for mercy, much as the publican prayed, Luk_18:13; Psa_106:4-5; Psa_145:18-19; Rom_10:9-10; 1Co_6:10-11. Garner J. Was the HS given at that point? Jesus died in order to go into hell to save the imprisoned souls there...None of them were baptized. The Thief fell into that category. Baptism is for the living not for the dead.
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Post by hansen on Aug 22, 2022 13:50:19 GMT -8
To say "There is no saving efficacy in water." is to say that water is not necessary for salvation. One must be clear when making comments. Since obedience is necessary for salvation then water baptism is necessary for salvation. Water baptism is not a show as many people claim. If it was then a person would remain wet forever to show he was baptized. How do we know a person was baptized if we were not present? Baptism is a command from our Lord. Was the repentant thief on the cross saved? 1) "And he said unto Jesus, Lord," (kai legen lesou) "And he said, Jesus," Savior or Deliverer, liberator, who sets men free from sin and death, Luk_4:18; Heb_2:14; Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36. He may have been encouraged by hearing Jesus pray for His murderers. 2) "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." (mnestheti mou horan elthes eis ten basilelan sou) "Remember me when you come into your kingdom," to intercede for sin, Heb_7:25; 1Jn_2:1-2. It was a cry for mercy, much as the publican prayed, Luk_18:13; Psa_106:4-5; Psa_145:18-19; Rom_10:9-10; 1Co_6:10-11. Garner J. And yet as the poster said, "Baptism is a command from our Lord". So we do the best we can with what we know and what we're given. And that's exactly what the thief did. God doesnt say, 'Aw, too bad, if it want for that darn cross you could've been baptized but now I have to send you to hell'. More will be expected from those given more (Luke 12:48). Had the thief been allowed down from that cross, to live a longer life, more would've been expected.
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 23, 2022 1:19:53 GMT -8
And if we stop believing, we don't have that promise anymore. The Holy Spirit doesn't leave people, they leave Him. ....Romans 8:39......” NOTHING in God's Total Creation can separate us from the Love Of God”.......That “Nothing “ would include YOU wouldn’t you think ? Aren’t you a part of God’s Creation? ” NOTHING in the FUTURE can take us from His Grip” .....If you were in His Grip and got Saved and then sometime later down the road , you decided that you wanted to escape that Grip, that decision to leave instead of staying would be something that happened in the Future , would it not? Sorry—— once your “ IN” , you are “ IN” for good——God has all the bases covered.....He’s GOT you and He is going to “ FINISH” the Good Work That He started.....* HE is the One that promises to “ keep you strong”, and present your as “ BLAMELESS “ on Judgement Day..... you....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 1:55:10 GMT -8
No, I don't think that includes a libertarian free will choice.
Our volitional decisions are not a "creature" but a facet of the image of God within us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 3:11:44 GMT -8
Brother, Christ never went to Hell to save imprisoned souls. Shalom J. And it is Ruach haKodesh/Hagios Pneuma/HOLY Spirit, not HS... J. So what did he go to hell for? Vacation? Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. And Ruach haKodesh/Hagios Pneuma/HOLY Spirit, HS all mean the same thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 3:19:20 GMT -8
Was the repentant thief on the cross saved? 1) "And he said unto Jesus, Lord," (kai legen lesou) "And he said, Jesus," Savior or Deliverer, liberator, who sets men free from sin and death, Luk_4:18; Heb_2:14; Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36. He may have been encouraged by hearing Jesus pray for His murderers. 2) "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." (mnestheti mou horan elthes eis ten basilelan sou) "Remember me when you come into your kingdom," to intercede for sin, Heb_7:25; 1Jn_2:1-2. It was a cry for mercy, much as the publican prayed, Luk_18:13; Psa_106:4-5; Psa_145:18-19; Rom_10:9-10; 1Co_6:10-11. Garner J. And yet as the poster said, "Baptism is a command from our Lord". So we do the best we can with what we know and what we're given. And that's exactly what the thief did. God doesnt say, 'Aw, too bad, if it want for that darn cross you could've been baptized but now I have to send you to hell'. More will be expected from those given more (Luke 12:48). Had the thief been allowed down from that cross, to live a longer life, more would've been expected. Baptism is a command from the Lord. We must obey commands. The thief went to hell. Jesus was in hell also. Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 3:37:19 GMT -8
You need to do some studying and leave the sarcasm at the door before entering. J.
Why not just answer his question?!! The sarcasm was pretty mild.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 23, 2022 7:11:47 GMT -8
gomer Here is the biblical method of baptism Barry Smith See if we agree on this. J. Yes, baptism is a burial, (Rom 6:3-5) and not a sprinkling or pouring. we have to make sure we get the context of baptism correct There is a spiritual baptism, which is of the Holy SPirit and there is a physical baptism, which is performed by men. PS. Rom six is spirit baptism not physical.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 23, 2022 7:13:51 GMT -8
There is no saving efficacy in water. Just as there was not any healing efficacy of water in healing Naaman of his disease when he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river. It was because of Naaman's obedience in dipping that GOD HEALED Naaman. Likewise, when one obeys God by submitting to water baptism, it is God Who is doing the work in cutting away the body of sin (Col 2:11-12). The water does nothing but it is the act of obeying in submitting to water baptism that God saves/remits sins. Therefore God saves, but since God saves only those who obediently submit to Him in water baptism it can be said that baptism saves, (1 Pet 3:21). Hence Peter told those in Acts 2 to "save yourselves". Obviously they could not save themselves by themselves but they could save themselves in the sense by doing what God commanded by being water baptized where then God cuts away the body of sin. Therefore salvation is not monergistic as Calvinism claims but man has a role in his own salvation thereby when man fulfills that role he is in that sense 'save yourselves' Acts 2:40 "cleansed ourselves" (2 Cor 7:1), "see you have purified your souls" (1 Pet 1:22), etc. To say "There is no saving efficacy in water." is to say that water is not necessary for salvation. One must be clear when making comments. Since obedience is necessary for salvation then water baptism is necessary for salvation. Water baptism is not a show as many people claim. If it was then a person would remain wet forever to show he was baptized. How do we know a person was baptized if we were not present? Baptism is a command from our Lord. water baptism is no more required in the NT church than circumcision was required in the OT church for salvation. One must be careful to attribute to man the work of God.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 23, 2022 7:16:40 GMT -8
And yet as the poster said, "Baptism is a command from our Lord". So we do the best we can with what we know and what we're given. And that's exactly what the thief did. God doesnt say, 'Aw, too bad, if it want for that darn cross you could've been baptized but now I have to send you to hell'. More will be expected from those given more (Luke 12:48). Had the thief been allowed down from that cross, to live a longer life, more would've been expected. Baptism is a command from the Lord. We must obey commands. The thief went to hell. Jesus was in hell also. Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. God gave many commands. you can not isolate one command as essential and ignore the rest Either we are required to obey all his commands (be perfect) or we recieve him in grace because we have failed to keep his commands as required
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 7:19:48 GMT -8
So what did he go to hell for? Vacation? Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. And Ruach haKodesh/Hagios Pneuma/HOLY Spirit, HS all mean the same thing. You need to do some studying and leave the sarcasm at the door before entering. J. You need to answer the question and leave the sarcasm at the door before entering since you started it...
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