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Post by gomer on Sept 2, 2022 19:12:40 GMT -8
There is nothing in either verse that proves eis means "because" and cannot mean anything other than "because". In other words, there is no interpretation that can be placed upon either verse that can rule out eis to mean "in" or "at". In Matt 12:41 the word repent means to change, hence when they repented AT the preaching of Jonah it carries the idea that changed their life IN ORDER to fit the righteous preaching of Jonah. Just as when Peter and Paul preached to the lost, men repented at their preaching, that is, men changed their life IN ORDER to fit the gospel as preached by them. People did not repent for the sake of repenting, that is, a person cannot just repent of his sin of adultery and do nothing more, but he must repent by changing his life into fitting the Christian life as taught in the NT. "They repented into the preaching of Jonah. This is not idiomatic English, but it conveys the exact thought a Greek would derive from the original. The term “preaching” is put for the course of life required by the preaching, and it is asserted that they repented into this. Their repentance, in other words, brought them into the course of life required by the preaching, and it is asserted that they repented into this (1875, 113)." J.W. McGarvey "The New Testament Commentary — Matthew and Mark." (my emp) So there is nothing wrong with Luke 11:7 being translated "in" for people do get "in bed". Below gives a portion of what Prof. Daniel Wallace, a well noted Greek expert, has to say about the 'causal' use of eis: "Before one can argue, therefore, that Matthew 12:41 contains this alleged exception, he must be absolutely positive there is no interpretation that can be placed upon the text in which eis carries its general, forward-looking thrust.
It is not an honest approach to the Scriptures to take an isolated text, and twist it into conformity with an interpretation that one seeks to defend due to a theological predisposition, e.g., the dogma of salvation by faith alone.
Professor Daniel Wallace is associated with the Dallas Theological Seminary in Texas. From a personal theological perspective, he does not believe that baptism is required as a condition for the remission of sins. This is important to keep in mind. Dr. Wallace is the author of the highly acclaimed work, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. Therein he has a discussion of the so-called causal use of eis. He contends that studies have shown that “the linguistic evidence for a causal eis” falls short of proof. He stingingly calls this misguided twisting of the preposition an “ingenious solution” that “lacks conviction” (1996, 370-371).
The celebrated Baptist scholar, H.B. Hackett, rendered the Greek phrase, eis aphesin hamartion in Acts 2:38, as “in order to the forgiveness of sins,” and referenced Matthew 26:28 and Luke 3:3 as parallel texts (1879, 54).
The question now engaging our attention is this: is there any reasonable view of Matthew 12:41 that allows the careful student to assign eis its normal, forward-pointing meaning? The answer is yes; clearly there is." www.christiancourier.com/articles/1152-the-use-of-the-preposition-eis-in-matthew-12-41And as I gave above, there is a reasonable view of Mt 12:41 using eis in its normal meaning "at". You cannot change the normal meaning of eis (at, unto, looking forward) based on theological bias by isolating these two verses. Again, you provided no proof in either verse that "eis" must mean "because" and can mean nothing else but "because". Like I said, You will believe whatever you want no matter what. I can't help you. Nor can I agree with you Good day sir.. -----You demand I respond to your posts, which I did, but you never responded to my post on showing "because' in Acts 2 creates impossibilities. -----you are not consistent in corrupting the Greek word eis. If one is baptized because one is already saved (Acts 2:38) then one believes because one is already saved (1 Tim 1:16). Or that Noah built the ark because he was already saved from a flood that had not even yet occurred (Heb 11:7). ----for you to prove that eis means because, you needed to prove in Matt 12:41 or Luke 11:7 that eis must mean 'because' and can mean nothing else but 'because'....but failed to prove that. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Sept 3, 2022 3:27:11 GMT -8
Like I said, You will believe whatever you want no matter what. I can't help you. Nor can I agree with you Good day sir.. -----You demand I respond to your posts, which I did, but you never responded to my post on showing "because' in Acts 2 creates impossibilities. -----you are not consistent in corrupting the Greek word eis. If one is baptized because one is already saved (Acts 2:38) then one believes because one is already saved (1 Tim 1:16). Or that Noah built the ark because he was already saved from a flood that had not even yet occurred (Heb 11:7). ----for you to prove that eis means because, you needed to prove in Matt 12:41 or Luke 11:7 that eis must mean 'because' and can mean nothing else but 'because'....but failed to prove that. Once again, you totally ignore the fact that EIS can refer to something that has already happened or in reference to something that has occurred or is true. Your illogical attempt to try to twist it to make it appear that it did not did not phase me at all. It may have convinced you into continuing to believe in a work of man regeneration. But it did nto help me You totally ignore the fact that there are two clauses in acts 2: 38 1st clause, 2nd person plural. - repent ye and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2nd clause, and let every one of YOU be baptized for (since you have received) remission of sin and conclusion. And those who BELIEVED (through repentance) were baptized,, once again. If you want to work to earn your salvation by letting a sinner immerse you in water. Feel free.. thats your free will and I am not going to stop you. I Was saved because GOD baptized me into the death and burial of c heist where my sins were washed away and I was born again by the washing of regeneration OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, not of some pastor.. Like the jew was baptized into Moses. I was baptized into Christ. BY GOD not by man and NOT in water I was baptized in water a year AFTER I was born again, as an open testimony of my faith to the people in my church. And once again. You will believe what you want. It is foolish for us to sit here and keep arguing something where neither one of us are going to change our minds.. I do not follow your gospel. And you have failed to convince me to repent of that decision. Good day sir. |
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Post by gomer on Sept 3, 2022 7:16:02 GMT -8
-----You demand I respond to your posts, which I did, but you never responded to my post on showing "because' in Acts 2 creates impossibilities. -----you are not consistent in corrupting the Greek word eis. If one is baptized because one is already saved (Acts 2:38) then one believes because one is already saved (1 Tim 1:16). Or that Noah built the ark because he was already saved from a flood that had not even yet occurred (Heb 11:7). ----for you to prove that eis means because, you needed to prove in Matt 12:41 or Luke 11:7 that eis must mean 'because' and can mean nothing else but 'because'....but failed to prove that. once again. If you want to work to earn your salvation by letting a sinner immerse you in water. Feel free.. thats your free will and I am not going to stop you. .....and this is why your whole argument fails and is based on dishonesty for I have never said salvation can be earned nor does the Bible ever call obedience to God a work of merit. Faith onlyism is not only unbiblical but it's not even logical...Martin Luther himself was never able to prove it, neither will you. You are not even able to produce a valid argument as seen by your false, straw man statement above. |
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101G
New Member
The Binding Covenant
Posts: 49 
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Post by 101G on Sept 11, 2022 5:11:19 GMT -8
The Scriptures are clear that salvation is a gift. Ephesians 2:8 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. it's the answer to that call and Gift that makes God's call and Gift irrevocable. A. a Call must be answered. B. a Gift must be received. and God knows the HEART and the MINDS of the answerer, and the receiver. he makes no mistakes Example in scriptures. the mind or conscience. Baptism answers the Call. 1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" the Gift. the desire to work because you answered the call in Believing, which is of Faith. James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." simply put in one scripture, Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." hence my salvation in Christ, because he is my Hope in whom he is the Author and finisher of ..... so we live, the Just must live by his Faith, hope sits the goal and FAITH go and get it, for he do the WORK in the Gifts we received, it is our guarantee by FAITH. PICJAG, 101G |
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Post by Aeliana on Apr 3, 2023 9:39:54 GMT -8
According to John 10:10 How can we lose our salvation?
The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. John 10:10
Since Jesus came to give us a rich and satisfying life once we believe in him and by hold of that promise How can we undo Would Jesus died to accomplish. No one on earth is that powerful.
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Post by Parker on Apr 3, 2023 10:19:40 GMT -8
God's not done with me yet, I'm a work in progress.
And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ, right up to the time of His return, developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you. Philippians 1:6
God BEGAN the good work, which means that it is a process.
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Post by Aeliana on Apr 4, 2023 5:26:07 GMT -8
Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results. James 5:16
I keep hearing people say that once we become a Believer we no longer sin. That doesn't seem to be what James is saying in the above verse.
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Post by Redeemed on Apr 4, 2023 6:17:21 GMT -8
Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results. James 5:16I keep hearing people say that once we become a Believer we no longer sin. That doesn't seem to be what James is saying in the above verse. Paul doesn't seem to be going for that either. Walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). |
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Ozias
Full Member
Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you
Posts: 100
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Post by Ozias on Apr 17, 2023 10:53:28 GMT -8
If salvation can be lost, it is vital that Christians not be given a false sense of security. If salvation is secure, then it is important that Christians not worry over a nonexistent possibility.
If salvation is truly by grace, I think there can be only one possible resolution to the issue.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace (the undeserved favor and mercy) of the Lord Jesus, just as they [are].
Romans 3:24 [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
Romans 4:16 Therefore, [inheriting] the promise is the outcome of faith and depends [entirely] on faith, in order that it might be given as an act of grace (unmerited favor), to make it stable and valid and guaranteed to all his descendants—not only to the devotees and adherents of the Law, but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, who is [thus] the father of us all.
Romans 11:5–6 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God’s unmerited favor and graciousness).
6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless].
Galatians 2:21 [Therefore, I do not treat God’s gracious gift as something of minor importance and defeat its very purpose]; I do not set aside and invalidate and frustrate and nullify the grace (unmerited favor) of God. For if justification (righteousness, acquittal from guilt) comes through [observing the ritual of] the Law, then Christ (the Messiah) died groundlessly and to no purpose and in vain. [His death was then wholly superfluous
Ephesians 2:5–6 Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation).
6 And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
2 Timothy 1:9–10 [For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago].
10 [It is that purpose and grace] which He now has made known and has fully disclosed and made real [to us] through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, Who annulled death and made it of no effect and brought life and immortality (immunity from eternal death) to light through the Gospel.
Hebrews 6:13-20 For when God made [His] promise to Abraham, He swore by Himself, since He had no one greater by whom to swear,
14 Saying, Blessing I certainly will bless you and multiplying I will multiply you. [Gen. 22:16, 17.]
15 And so it was that he [Abraham], having waited long and endured patiently, realized and obtained [in the birth of Isaac as a pledge of what was to come] what God had promised him.
16 Men indeed swear by a greater [than themselves], and with them in all disputes the oath taken for confirmation is final [ending strife].
17 Accordingly God also, in His desire to show more convincingly and beyond doubt to those who were to inherit the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose and plan, intervened (mediated) with an oath.
18 This was so that, by two unchangeable things [His promise and His oath] in which it is impossible for God ever to prove false or deceive us, we who have fled [to Him] for refuge might have mighty indwelling strength and strong encouragement to grasp and hold fast the hope appointed for us and set before [us].
19 [Now] we have this [hope] as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul [it cannot slip and it cannot break down under whoever steps out upon it—a hope] that reaches farther and enters into [the very certainty of the Presence] within the veil, [Lev. 16:2.]
20 Where Jesus has entered in for us [in advance], a Forerunner having become a High Priest forever after the order (with the rank) of Melchizedek. [Ps. 110:4.]
1 Peter 1:3-6 Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 [Born anew] into an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay [imperishable], unsullied and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are being guarded (garrisoned) by God’s power through [your] faith [till you fully inherit that final] salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time.
6 [You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations,
1 John 2:25 And this is what He Himself has promised us—the life, the eternal [life].
1 John 5:9-13 If we accept [as we do] the testimony of men [if we are willing to take human authority], the testimony of God is greater (of stronger authority), for this is the testimony of God, even the witness which He has borne regarding His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] has the testimony [possesses this divine attestation] within himself. He who does not believe God [in this way] has made Him out to be and represented Him as a liar, because he has not believed (put his faith in, adhered to, and relied on) the evidence (the testimony) that God has borne regarding His Son.
11 And this is that testimony (that evidence): God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who possesses the Son has that life; he who does not possess the Son of God does not have that life.
13 I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life
As theologian Lewis Sperry Chafer said, “The truth of eternal security is inherent in the nature of salvation itself.”
Salvation is a gift of God. The Bible could not be more clear—salvation is absolutely free, the true gift of God in Christ, and our only responsibility is to receive the gift by faith (John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9).
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Post by Unmerited on Apr 21, 2023 15:23:10 GMT -8
In discussing this the other day with a friend, I was told that if you have eternal life and somehow you manage to lose it then it wasn't eternal to begin with.
And he who believes in (has faith in, clings to, relies on) the Son has (now possesses) eternal life. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God’s displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually] John 3:36
In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever! John 3:15
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Post by Redeemed on Apr 22, 2023 14:49:18 GMT -8
Hebrews 7:24-25 says it all:
“but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
God desires for us to be confident in Him and in His saving grace. He gives us several reasons to be sure of our eternal security.”
Jesus makes a personal promise to all believers: “No one will snatch [you] out of My hand” (John 10:28)—and He does not make promises unless He intends to keep them. To assume that we can take an action that would separate us from the Lord once we have been saved would essentially be calling Him a liar.
The hand of God is used throughout Scripture as a symbol of His strength. Once we have received Christ, we are safely in His palm, and no force or action can remove us. If Satan could snatch us away, either by tempting us into sin or through his own power, it would mean he is stronger than God. We know that isn’t true because God is omnipotent (2 Chron. 20:6).
Jesus is our advocate before a holy God.. In fact, Hebrews 7:25 tells us that Christ “saves forever” because He is available to intercede with God on our behalf. In human terms, Jesus is at the right hand of God as a tangible reminder that our sin debt is paid in full.
Through His Son Jesus, God has offered us not only salvation, but salvation eternally, with no loopholes, caveats, or maybes. You can be sure!
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Post by Bronson on Apr 24, 2023 8:52:39 GMT -8
I think the whole "once saved always saved" debate keeps us from seeing what's really important in our walk here on earth as Christians. I'm talking about what we do as part of the kingdom, Our rewards and our loss of rewards.
Our position in Christ is the “foundation” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. That which we build upon the foundation can be the “gold, silver, and precious stones” of good works in Christ’s name, obedience and fruitfulness—dedicated spiritual service to glorify God and build the church. Or what we build on the foundation may be the “wood, hay and stubble” of worthless, frivolous, shallow activity with no spiritual value. The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this.
I think if you accept the gift of salvation but you don't build a foundation Then you lose your reward, but you still go to heaven.
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Post by civic on Apr 24, 2023 10:58:22 GMT -8
I think the whole "once saved always saved" debate keeps us from seeing what's really important in our walk here on earth as Christians. I'm talking about what we do as part of the kingdom, Our rewards and our loss of rewards. Our position in Christ is the “foundation” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. That which we build upon the foundation can be the “gold, silver, and precious stones” of good works in Christ’s name, obedience and fruitfulness—dedicated spiritual service to glorify God and build the church. Or what we build on the foundation may be the “wood, hay and stubble” of worthless, frivolous, shallow activity with no spiritual value. The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this. I think if you accept the gift of salvation but you don't build a foundation Then you lose your reward, but you still go to heaven. Agreed |
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Ozias
Full Member
Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you
Posts: 100
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Post by Ozias on Apr 24, 2023 13:39:11 GMT -8
Eternal significance refers to the results of God’s dealing with a believer at the time of the Judgment Seat of Christ. At that time, God will demonstrate the value of the believer’s service while on earth. The way the believer chooses to live and exercise his God-given stewardships has ramifications on how God will use and honor Him in the kingdom.
Then you have the problems with spiritual insecurity (Don't drink the Kool-Aid) Problem 1: Are there sins Jesus blood cannot pay for? The problem with that is it diminishes the death of Christ by implying there are sins for which Christ’s death on the cross cannot pay for. This usually includes all future sins. His blood cleanses only past sins. Those future sins could be as simple as a ungodly thought or as radical as departure from the faith. The consequence is the same—one loses his eternal salvation.
The next problem is the totality of the Atonement is diminished. The idea of a limited atonement (Christ dying only for the elect—the third point of Calvinism) is repulsive to Arminians, yet in essence they have limited it too. “Jesus does not pay for all your sin when you receive Him,” is what logic dictates them to say.
The Atonement is not applied to all sin, past and future, when one believes. The covering of sin can be removed or is inadequate to meet future sin problems. In other words, the Lord’s death does not completely justify His children. The believer must do his part. He must never sin (badly, at least) again.
See how fast this kid's convoluted?
Last but not least, believers “work” their way to heaven. Arminianism affirms that people are saved by grace through faith apart from good works. Yet, becoming a Christian somehow throws them into a different way of relating to God. Once saved, works are the means of keeping salvation—for if they do not work and fulfill certain requirements, they are not going to go to heaven. Despite protests to the contrary, they logically have to believe a man is saved by his works and not by God’s grace, for if a believer doesn’t work, he is not going to heaven.
All three of the above points don't work for me.
Duffield and Van Cleave make this position clear:
In recognizing the possibility of union with Christ being broken, we must not think of returning to a legalistic position where we are kept by our own efforts. A Christian can no more keep himself in the power of the flesh than he can save himself by this means. We are ‘kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation’ (1 Pt. 1:5). Our part is to believe Him; His part is to keep us. (Italics theirs.)
This sounds good so far. A Calvinist could agree with it. Unfortunately, they continue …
The believer’s responsibility is to continually take advantage of the means of grace which God has provided for His children. He cannot keep himself, but the Christian must submit himself to the mighty keeping power of God within him. The only way he can work out his salvation is if God works within him (Phil. 2:12, 13). The believer’s part is to constantly feed on God’s word, to yield to the ministry of the Holy Spirit and to maintain unbroken fellowship with God through prayer. Through faith, and obedience, and yieldedness to His will, he avails himself of all God’s grace has supplied.… If the follower of Christ will do these things, he is eternally secure[!].
Make no mistake, they are saying a failure to study, pray, yield and obey will render a believer eternally insecure. He is keeping himself by these things. They miss the inherent contradiction between what they say from the beginning of the paragraph to the end. Such a doctrine diminishes the grace of God, and entrance into God’s kingdom is no longer a gift, but given as what is due (Rom. 4:4).
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Post by Parker on Apr 24, 2023 15:39:45 GMT -8
We need to take a good look at the gospel. We need to do this for several reasons. First, the gospel is for sinners. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Most Christians tend to think of the gospel as applicable only to unbelievers who need to be “saved.” Once we trust in Christ, so the thinking goes, the gospel doesn’t apply to us anymore, except to share it with others who are still unbelievers. However, though we truly are saints in the sense of being separated unto God, all of us are still practicing sinners. All the ethical commands and exhortations addressed to believers in the New Testament assume there is still sin present in our lives that needs to be addressed. Among the four uses for which Scripture is profitable, as described in 2 Timothy 3:16, are reproof and correction. Again, these uses assume that we still have sin that needs to be reproved and corrected. John Newton, who wrote the much-loved hymn “Amazing Grace,” was earlier in his life a slave trader and even captain of a ship transporting captured Africans to America. For medical reasons, he left the seafaring life, became a customs officer, studied theology, and eventually became a minister. However, even as a minister, Newton never forgot the horrible nature of his sin as a slave trader. At the end of his life, Newton said to a friend, “My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: that I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior.” Why does God not count my sins against me? Because He has already charged it to Christ. To the extent that I grasp, in the depth of my being, this great truth of God’s forgiveness of my sin through Christ, I will be freed up to honestly and humbly face the particular manifestations of sin in my life. That’s why it is so helpful to affirm each day with John Newton that “I am a great sinner, but I have a great Savior.” The way I like to look at it is we are Saints that sometime soon. To me this is important Because of 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. The thing is before we will confess our sins and ask for forgiveness we have to believe and understand that as Christians we still soon. If one is into Sinless Perfection I don't think they would do that. They will sin but they won't believe they did. So they will not confess any sin and they will not ask for forgiveness. Is sinless perfection possible in this life? |
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