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Post by civic on Aug 17, 2022 4:15:10 GMT -8
I just wanted to say just as an observer of this thread that you guys/gals are doing an outstanding job of dealing with the arguments and not the person and having a friendly discussion. I can tell you from the many years I have seen this discussion debated online that this is rare to see. So I just wanted to say I'm very proud of all of you and its such a blessing to read this exchange. It makes my heart glad that we can disagree yet remain respectful . Its the 1 Peter 3:15 and Acts 17:11 principles in action which was the intent and purpose of this forum.
Kudos !
hope this helps !!!
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Post by gomer on Aug 17, 2022 5:30:06 GMT -8
Justification by obedience does not require one to work to keep the law flawlessly, but requires one to strive to keep the law as best as he can and seek forgiveness and grace from God for those time he fails and sins. This might make it appear that we must “Merit” Grace by “Striving ( another Word for ‘ working’) to keep a law that can NEVER Justify.....( ‘ By the Works Of The Law, NO FLESH will be Justified)...... Grace is “ UNMERITED FAVOR”......Accept that we are Saved and kept by Grace Plus Nothing, because if one tries to take the “ Striving” Route to Merit that which is impossible to merit, The Standard is PERFECTION—-24/7 If one chooses to “put themselves under the Law” , in ANY way, shape or form, that’s fine—— just accept the fact that you will also be under “The Curse Of The Law” .....the “ curse” is that the Standard is PERFECTION and nobody can pull it off...... The Bible never says that “ It is by “ striving to do our best ‘ that we are Saved... The Bible says that “ It is by GRACE that we are Saved” “ Striving” or “ Working “ to earn what can never “ BE” earned will cancel the very thing that Saves—- GRACE ! ( if it be by Works, it can’t be ofGrace) Don’t Fear Grace—— knowing that ALL of my Sins are covered by it, inspires one to Sin less—- not more....its the secret of living a life that pleases God...... I am free to do whatever I “want”......and just what exactly do I “ Want?”.......I want to live a life that please the One who Shed His Blood so that I could live in this Grace.... I Grace is a free gift, but it is not an UNCONDITIONAL free gift. If it were unconditional then 'all men' (Tts 2:11) would unconditionally be saved. Meeting the necessary condition does not earn the free gift. And in the case of grace, God has made receiving this free gift conditional upon one's obedience. Jesus Himself said to strive to enter the strait gate but the striving earns nothing but is necessary to put one in position to receive grace. Noah strove to build the ark as commanded by God but his obedience in working to build the ark earned him nothing but it was necessary to put himself in the position to receive God's grace in being saved from the flood. People must understand that obedience and works of merit are not the same things....obedience cannot earn God's free gift. Noah's obedience in building the ark earned him nothing, Naaman's obedience in dipping 7 times earned him nothing. There is no example in the Bible of a person's obedience being called a work of merit. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 17, 2022 7:37:12 GMT -8
Those who follow Luther's faith only idea have consistently taken Rom 4:5 OUT OF CONTEXT and ASSUME it eliminates ALL works of ALL kinds including obedience. If "not of works" eliminates obedience, then: --that has God saving those who live in unrighteousness and rebellion to His will, yet the unrighteous are the ones who are lost --it would create obvious logical contradictions for Paul in Rom 6:16-18 required obedience BEFORE justification/freed from sin --from Heb 11:8,17 that Abraham DID DO obedient works and according to James was justified by those works therefore 'not of works' cannot logically eliminate all works, it cannot eliminate obedience If we examine the CONTEXT of the first 4 chapters of Romans, Paul's theme is justification and that justification is by an obedient faith and not by perfect flawless works as required by the OT. Paul is proving to the Jews, and uses as an example 2 famed men the Jews would know well Abraham and David, and prove they were both justified by an obedient faith not by perfect flawless works. Romans 1 and 2 Paul proves both Jew and Gentile have sinned therefore both are under sin and those under sin are in need of justification. Romans 3, Paul spends the first half or more of this chapter telling his readers what does NOT justify and that is the OT law that was committed to the Jews (Rom 3:1-2) and spends the last part of Rom 3 telling his readers what DOES justify and that is faith. Paul never said anything about faith only. Luther added the word 'only' to God's word thereby changing it. Even though the OT law was an advantage to the Jews over the Gentiles, the law of Moses still could not justify the Jew for it required the work of perfect flawless law keeping (Gal 3:10) which the Jew could not do thereby leaving the Jew under sin and no better than the Gentile (Rom 3:9). Paul ends Romans 3 by showing that Jew and Gentile can both be justified by faith (Acts 15:9) rather than works of flawless law keeping. Romans 4, Paul uses two men the Jews are very familiar with to prove his point they were not saved by the flawless, perfect works required of the OT law but rather justified by faith. --verse 1 what did Abraham pertaining to the flesh find? In other words, what merit did Abraham gain with God according to his OWN efforts? None. --verse 2 if Abraham could be justified by his own efforts he would have something to boast about. Again, the "works" Paul speaks of here is NOT obedience for Abraham did obey God (Heb 11:8,17) but the works here speak of works merit one does in perfect law keeping that one could boast about. --verse 3 we find Abraham did not do flawless works in meriting justification but instead he believed, he had an obedient faith. --verse 4 him who worketh in keeping the law perfectly his reward is of debt and not of grace. Note this person who worketh in keeping the law perfectly is contrasted from the person who believes. --verse 5 Abraham was one who worketh not but believeth. The contrast made here as in Rom 3 is the contrast in working to keep the law perfectly contrasted from an obedient belief as Abraham had (Heb 11:8,17). Hence Abraham was not one who found justification by working to keep the OT law of Moses perfectly (he didn't even live under the law of Moses, Rom 4:9-10) but was justified by an obedient belief. Unlike Abraham, David DID live under the OT law of Moses yet David was not justified by that law in keeping it perfectly, he sinned, but he was justified by an obedient faith as Abraham. ". ...the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" -- "without works" refers to the work perfect flawless law keeping required by the OT and therefore David was justified without those perfect flawless works. How then was David justified? " Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. who will the Lord not impute sin? The disobedient, unrighteous person who lives in rebellion to God's will? NO, NEVER!!! But it is the faithful OBEDIENT person as David and Abraham whose sins are forgiven and covered that God will not impute sin. unto whom (the obedient man) God reckoneth righteousness apart from works (works of perfect flawless law keeping). All through the context Paul is contrasting works of flawless law keeping that cannot justify from obedience to God that does justify. Paul's point is if these two great men well known men in the Jews "hall of fame" could not be justified by the law of Moses and its requirement of working to keep all the law flawlessly then no Jew should think he could be justified by that law either but justified by an obedient faith as Abraham and David were. Abraham lived prior to the law of Moses and was justified in UNcircumcision and David lived under and justified in circumcision, therefore justification comes apart from the law of Moses and its requirement in working to keep the law flawlessly to be justified by it but both were justified by an obedient faith. Faith only is nowhere in the context to be found, justification apart from obedience is nowhere in the context to be found. Justification by obedience does not require one to work to keep the law flawlessly, but requires one to strive to keep the law as best as he can and seek forgiveness and grace from God for those time he fails and sins. I do not follow Luther.. Thank you Abraham was before the law/ So when paul says if abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about, it has to do with the works that abraham did. he did not do works of the law, So to claim this is works of the law is just wrong If your claiming one must do works to be saved, you are claiming they are trying to earn salvation by works.. This is against the word of God Again, if it is of grace (unmerited favor) it is not of works (any work) otherwise grace is no longer grace grace and works do not mix, it is like mixing oil and water But those who do follow Luther's faith only idea do take Rom 4:5 out of context when trying to use it to eliminate all works including obedience to God. Paul was proving to the Jews they could not be justified by the law of Moses and its requirement in working to keep all of it flawlessly. Abraham was Paul's example for Abraham was justified by his obedience (Heb 11:8,17; James 2) and not by working to keep the law OT law perfectly. He did not even live under the OT law of Moses therefore the Jews should see from their father Abraham that they could not be justified by the law of Moses but could be justified by an obedient faith. There was a small remnant of Jews on Pentecost Acts 2 who obeyed God by repenting and being baptized and had their sins remitted/justified. Therefore obedience DOES justify while works of merit as required by the OT law do not. God's grace and man's obedience go together like a hand in a glove. It took God's grace to save Noah from the flood but it took Noah's obedience in building the ark to receive God's grace. Noah earned nothing by his obedience in building the ark but God required it in order for Noah to receive His grace. Paul's point in Romans 6 is grace alone cannot save apart from obedience. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not license the Christian to live as he pleases (no OSAS). The Christian must live in obedience to God's will whereby he is then serving "obedience unto righteousness" for if he is not obeying God then he is serving "sin unto death" (Rom 6:16). Men do not receive God's grace arbitrarily, unconditionally or for some unknown reason. Through the Bible the recipients of God's grace have always been those who obeyed God. And not one time is obedience ever said to earn grace. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 17, 2022 8:43:50 GMT -8
I do not follow Luther.. Thank you Abraham was before the law/ So when paul says if abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about, it has to do with the works that abraham did. he did not do works of the law, So to claim this is works of the law is just wrong If your claiming one must do works to be saved, you are claiming they are trying to earn salvation by works.. This is against the word of God Again, if it is of grace (unmerited favor) it is not of works (any work) otherwise grace is no longer grace grace and works do not mix, it is like mixing oil and water But those who do follow Luther's faith only idea do take Rom 4:5 out of context when trying to use it to eliminate all works including obedience to God. Paul was proving to the Jews they could not be justified by the law of Moses and its requirement in working to keep all of it flawlessly. Abraham was Paul's example for Abraham was justified by his obedience (Heb 11:8,17; James 2) and not by working to keep the law OT law perfectly. He did not even live under the OT law of Moses therefore the Jews should see from their father Abraham that they could not be justified by the law of Moses but could be justified by an obedient faith. There was a small remnant of Jews on Pentecost Acts 2 who obeyed God by repenting and being baptized and had their sins remitted/justified. Therefore obedience DOES justify while works of merit as required by the OT law do not. God's grace and man's obedience go together like a hand in a glove. It took God's grace to save Noah from the flood but it took Noah's obedience in building the ark to receive God's grace. Noah earned nothing by his obedience in building the ark but God required it in order for Noah to receive His grace. Paul's point in Romans 6 is grace alone cannot save apart from obedience. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not license the Christian to live as he pleases (no OSAS). The Christian must live in obedience to God's will whereby he is then serving "obedience unto righteousness" for if he is not obeying God then he is serving "sin unto death" (Rom 6:16). Men do not receive God's grace arbitrarily, unconditionally or for some unknown reason. Through the Bible the recipients of God's grace have always been those who obeyed God. And not one time is obedience ever said to earn grace. we still have issues Paul again did NOT mention the law. Abraham did many works, well established works, including sacrificing his son (in obedience) and Paul makes it clear. NON of those works were a part of why he was saved.. He was saved because he trusted God. and Paul makes it clear. only we who have the same faith as abraham will be saved.. Not by works.. whether works of the law or other works. Obedience can not justify us. the penalty of sin is death. You being obedient will not cause God to forgive you one sin. Because the penalty of sin is not being baptised. Going to church, Loving others, it is death. Only death can redeem you. thats where the cross comes in. Either the cross is imputed to your account through faith. Or you are on your own. Your works will not add up to what is required to allow God to forgive you..
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 17, 2022 9:44:17 GMT -8
we still have issues Paul again did NOT mention the law. Abraham did many works, well established works, including sacrificing his son (in obedience) and Paul makes it clear. NON of those works were a part of why he was saved.. He was saved because he trusted God. and Paul makes it clear. only we who have the same faith as abraham will be saved.. Not by works.. whether works of the law or other works. Obedience can not justify us. the penalty of sin is death. You being obedient will not cause God to forgive you one sin. Because the penalty of sin is not being baptised. Going to church, Loving others, it is death. Only death can redeem you. thats where the cross comes in. Either the cross is imputed to your account through faith. Or you are on your own. Your works will not add up to what is required to allow God to forgive you..
The cross is imputed? J. Christ's death,, the cross. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 17, 2022 12:32:38 GMT -8
But those who do follow Luther's faith only idea do take Rom 4:5 out of context when trying to use it to eliminate all works including obedience to God. Paul was proving to the Jews they could not be justified by the law of Moses and its requirement in working to keep all of it flawlessly. Abraham was Paul's example for Abraham was justified by his obedience (Heb 11:8,17; James 2) and not by working to keep the law OT law perfectly. He did not even live under the OT law of Moses therefore the Jews should see from their father Abraham that they could not be justified by the law of Moses but could be justified by an obedient faith. There was a small remnant of Jews on Pentecost Acts 2 who obeyed God by repenting and being baptized and had their sins remitted/justified. Therefore obedience DOES justify while works of merit as required by the OT law do not. God's grace and man's obedience go together like a hand in a glove. It took God's grace to save Noah from the flood but it took Noah's obedience in building the ark to receive God's grace. Noah earned nothing by his obedience in building the ark but God required it in order for Noah to receive His grace. Paul's point in Romans 6 is grace alone cannot save apart from obedience. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not license the Christian to live as he pleases (no OSAS). The Christian must live in obedience to God's will whereby he is then serving "obedience unto righteousness" for if he is not obeying God then he is serving "sin unto death" (Rom 6:16). Men do not receive God's grace arbitrarily, unconditionally or for some unknown reason. Through the Bible the recipients of God's grace have always been those who obeyed God. And not one time is obedience ever said to earn grace. And to add.... www.blueletterbible.org/study/hta/hta.cfm#s=8_72_645:~:text=the%20Holy%20Bible-,Book%201.%20Scripture,-Book%202.%20God J. Yes, salvation is not possible apart from obedience to God. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 17, 2022 13:05:07 GMT -8
But those who do follow Luther's faith only idea do take Rom 4:5 out of context when trying to use it to eliminate all works including obedience to God. Paul was proving to the Jews they could not be justified by the law of Moses and its requirement in working to keep all of it flawlessly. Abraham was Paul's example for Abraham was justified by his obedience (Heb 11:8,17; James 2) and not by working to keep the law OT law perfectly. He did not even live under the OT law of Moses therefore the Jews should see from their father Abraham that they could not be justified by the law of Moses but could be justified by an obedient faith. There was a small remnant of Jews on Pentecost Acts 2 who obeyed God by repenting and being baptized and had their sins remitted/justified. Therefore obedience DOES justify while works of merit as required by the OT law do not. God's grace and man's obedience go together like a hand in a glove. It took God's grace to save Noah from the flood but it took Noah's obedience in building the ark to receive God's grace. Noah earned nothing by his obedience in building the ark but God required it in order for Noah to receive His grace. Paul's point in Romans 6 is grace alone cannot save apart from obedience. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not license the Christian to live as he pleases (no OSAS). The Christian must live in obedience to God's will whereby he is then serving "obedience unto righteousness" for if he is not obeying God then he is serving "sin unto death" (Rom 6:16). Men do not receive God's grace arbitrarily, unconditionally or for some unknown reason. Through the Bible the recipients of God's grace have always been those who obeyed God. And not one time is obedience ever said to earn grace. we still have issues Paul again did NOT mention the law. Abraham did many works, well established works, including sacrificing his son (in obedience) and Paul makes it clear. NON of those works were a part of why he was saved.. He was saved because he trusted God. and Paul makes it clear. only we who have the same faith as abraham will be saved.. Not by works.. whether works of the law or other works. Obedience can not justify us. the penalty of sin is death. You being obedient will not cause God to forgive you one sin. Because the penalty of sin is not being baptised. Going to church, Loving others, it is death. Only death can redeem you. thats where the cross comes in. Either the cross is imputed to your account through faith. Or you are on your own. Your works will not add up to what is required to allow God to forgive you..
. In Romans chapters 1 and 2 Paul proves both Gentiles and Jews are under sin and those under sin are in need of justification. Paul begins Romans chapter 3 mentioning the OT law that was given to the Jews and that having that OT law of Moses was an advantage to the Jew. It was an honor and privilege for the Jews to be given God's law yet it came with the responsibility that they keep that law...which they did not (Acts 7:51-53). Therefore having the advantage of having the OT law did the Jews no good.." What then? are we (Jews) better than they (Gentiles)? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;" Paul then proceeds to cite several verses from the OT (vs 10-18) to prove the Jews sinned and tells the Jews " Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:". Paul here is in essence telling the Jews your own law given to you says you are sinners. Hence both Jews and Gentiles are under sin for all the laws given prior to the law of Moses and the law of Moses itself, failed to justify Jew or Gentile. Now in v21 Paul is going to present a solution for the condemnation of Jew and Gentile...." But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law,...." (How to be justified without having to work to keep the OT law flawlessly) Now with Christ's NT, men could be justified by an obedient faith whereas all the laws before the NT required perfect flawless law keeping to be justified by those laws and both Jews and Gentiles failed to live up to the perfection those laws required. vs 22-24 it is by faith in Jesus Christ is how Jews and Gentiles can NOW be justified and no perfect law keeping is required. v28 " Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Paul then concludes here that Jew and Gentile are justified by faith APART from those OT laws that required the work of perfect law keeping. NOTE: Paul here is NOT contrasting faith from obedience but is contrasting faith apart from the work of flawless law keeping the OT required to justify one.Paul goes on in Rom 4 to give his proof of justification by faith APART from the OT law and its required flawless law keeping by using Abraham and David. Neither was justified by working to keep the OT law flawlessly perfect but justified by an obedient faith. Therefore obedience DOES justify: Rom 6:17-18 " But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." Order of events in how those Romans were justified: --they were servants of sin --but they OBEYED from the heart --then they were freed from sin/justified. No example in the Bible of justification by being disobedient, rebellious to God's will. |
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Post by charlie24 on Aug 17, 2022 13:57:57 GMT -8
The Scriptures are clear that salvation is a gift. Ephesians 2:8 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. John 10:28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Scripture also teaches that the grace of God is a gift given the believer. First Corinthians 1:4 “the grace of God which was given you.” Ephesians 3:7 “the gift of God’s grace.” The Bible also says that we have been “justified as a gift” Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Romans 5:17 If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Now for the sixty-four thousand dollar question, Would God ever take back the gifts He has freely given? If salvation is a gift consisting of irreversible actions, can it ever be returned? Romans 11:29 says that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Consider this verse in other translations. Wuest renders it, “For the gifts in grace and the calling of God are with respect to a change of mind irrevocable.” The Living Bible reads, “For God’s gift and his call can never be withdrawn; he will never go back on his promises.” The Amplified Bible teaches, “For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]” But there is an even stronger argument here: Scripture also teaches that it is actually the believer who is a gift from God the Father to His Son, Jesus Christ. Consider the following statements by Jesus Himself: All that the Father gives me will come to me John 6:37. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him (John 17:2). I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me John 17:6. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours John 17:9. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am and to see my glory John 17:24. In all these verses, and others, Jesus tells us that every true believer in Christ has been a special gift from the Father to Him. Here are some questions to ponder... Would Jesus ever refuse a gift from the Father? Is this even conceivable? If Christians could lose their salvation, doesn’t this mean that the Father would have to take back those whom He gave to His Son as a special gift? Would Jesus ever allow a precious gift from the Father to be sent to hell and eternally lost? If so, why would God ever present a man or woman to his own Son as a gift in the first place—when He knew that one day the gift would be taken from Him and consigned to eternal judgment? That is an impossibility because God’s purpose, omniscience, and character could not allow it. That is why Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand” John 10:28 “All that the Father gives me will come to me and...I shall lose none of all that he has given me.… And I will raise him up at the last day” John 6:37-40 “I have not lost one of those you gave me” John 18:9. Jesus Said it and I believe it. It seems to me this is Calvinism. It is assuming man has no choice in his salvation. This is the only way for what you are saying to be true. On the other side of the coin, with man having free will to choose Christ, who is to say the choice of Christ can't turn to a rejection of Christ down the road? Can man who accepts Christ with his free will turn and reject Christ with that same free will? I'm not a Calvinist, I believe in "whosoever will let him come..." So I say yes, man with his free will to accept Christ can turn and reject Christ. I believe there are many examples of this in scripture. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 17, 2022 17:00:13 GMT -8
Hi there and welcome charlie24.
The main thing for you and I is that we don't lose our Salvation. I believe the best way we can be sure that doesn't happen is to remain in Christ. There's another translation that says abide in Christ. I like it better cuz abide means to live in. If you're a Living Sacrifice and you're sold out for Jesus you will keep your salvation secure In Him. He's the one that left the 99 sheep to go look for that one lost sheep. We just need to make sure we are part of the 99. Just in case Jesus can't find us if we end up being that one lost sheep. But I think we can rest assured even if we ended up being the one wild sheep I believe Jesus Christ Would find us And bring us home.
The parable of the Prodigal Son didn't even need to be found he just came to his senses and realized he would be better as a servant in his father's house and to starve while feeding pigs.
I'm also not a calvinist and I don't believe I'm powerful enough to undo the salvation miracle the Jesus has provided for me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 17:15:19 GMT -8
I think of this matter in a very pragmatic way. There are people who profess to believe in Christ, who have openly admitted the temptations of sin are very powerful and sometimes they consider leaving him so they can live in sin. Are you really going to #1 insist they cannot currently be saved because they are seriously contemplating apostasy? When they openly say they really do believe in trust in Christ currently? Are you really going to #2 insist that if they choose this path to reject the lifestyle their faith instructs, that they were never even saved anyway, because real Christians apparently can't do what Peter and Judas did? Don't you see how this is confused and empowering people to either, justify their sin and feel secure, or remove trust in the Bible's promise that if they have believed in Christ they really are saved? And all of this confusion and misdirection, misleading Christians into thinking they were never saved or can't be lost, is just to make oneself selfishly feel secure in a way the Bible never promises? The fruits of this doctrine are not good, and this is not the grace of God that teaches men to deny ungodliness.
We do NOT determine how saved we are by how much good fruit we seem to bear, but by our faith that Christ is enough and working in us.
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Post by charlie24 on Aug 17, 2022 18:14:48 GMT -8
Hi there and welcome charlie24. The main thing for you and I is that we don't lose our Salvation. I believe the best way we can be sure that doesn't happen is to remain in Christ. There's another translation that says abide in Christ. I like it better cuz abide means to live in. If you're a Living Sacrifice and you're sold out for Jesus you will keep your salvation secure In Him. He's the one that left the 99 sheep to go look for that one lost sheep. We just need to make sure we are part of the 99. Just in case Jesus can't find us if we end up being that one lost sheep. But I think we can rest assured even if we ended up being the one wild sheep I believe Jesus Christ Would find us And bring us home. The parable of the Prodigal Son didn't even need to be found he just came to his senses and realized he would be better as a servant in his father's house and to starve while feeding pigs. I'm also not a calvinist and I don't believe I'm powerful enough to undo the salvation miracle the Jesus has provided for me. Yes, I agree we must remain in Christ. My point, contrary to the Calvinist way is that man has free will to choose Christ. The faith that got us in is the faith that keeps us in. The Calvinist will say we can't depart from Christ, we have no choice in the matter. This is OSAS for all the wrong reasons. I have stated I have no problem with OSAS on other forums, while at the same time not agreeing with it. Your post struck me as being the Calvinist way of OSAS and not of free will. It looks that I have made a mistake in assuming that. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 18, 2022 4:53:49 GMT -8
Yes, I agree we must remain in Christ. My point, contrary to the Calvinist way is that man has free will to choose Christ. The faith that got us in is the faith that keeps us in. The Calvinist will say we can't depart from Christ, we have no choice in the matter. This is OSAS for all the wrong reasons. I have stated I have no problem with OSAS on other forums, while at the same time not agreeing with it. Your post struck me as being the Calvinist way of OSAS and not of free will. It looks that I have made a mistake in assuming that. No, you may have been right in thinking it sounded different than the free will way. Let's take a look at both. I like to looks at all sides and see where the Holy Spirit leads me. Let's look at the Perseverance of the Saints found in Calvinism. Known as the P in Tulip. We first must ask, who are the saints? Many would say they are people who have been baptized or have made decisions for Christ at evangelistic meetings. However, Scripture and the Reformed confessions define saints as those “whom God calls, according to His purpose, to the communion of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and regenerates by the Holy Spirit” (Canons of Dort, Head V, Art. 1) and as “they whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit” (Westminster Confession of Faith, 17.1). The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints teaches that all who partake of the grace and power of saving union with Christ by faith continue in that union with its benefits and fruits. By the preserving work of the triune God (1 Cor. 1:8–9), they persevere in true faith and in the works that proceed from faith so long as they continue in the world (John 6:37–40; 2 Tim. 4:7). Thus, if by the Spirit of God you are regenerate, justified, adopted into God’s family, and sanctified, you cannot lose that salvation (1 Peter 1:5). God will keep you forever (Jude 24–25), for your perseverance is the fruit of His preservation (Phil. 1:6). If you have confessed Christ from the heart, sin will not have dominion over you (Rom. 6:14); you “can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace” (Westminster Confession of Faith, 17.1). (This is where my post may have sounded like the Calvinist way.) This doctrine does not mean that believers are immune to sin or that they can never fail to exercise saving faith. Though their faith won’t die, there are times when, sadly, it will not be active. Apart from a continuous influx of Christ into their souls, believers cannot continue or flourish. God alone gives the increase, for He never forsakes the work of His hands. When we speak of the perseverance of the saints, we do mean that having brought the elect into vital union with Himself, Jesus Christ continually supplies them with His grace. He is the life of their life and the strength of their strength. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit, having selected the hearts of the elect as His dwelling place, never leaves them; He promotes their sanctification until He has made their souls ripe for entrance into heaven. The faithful, covenant-keeping God keeps alive in the hearts of His elect the spark of holy love, which He Himself has kindled, despite their waywardness, slothfulness, and disobedience. He even uses His very imperfect children in promoting their own spiritual well-being through faith, prayer, confession, and the proper use of the means of grace. God, and God alone, sees to it that His children never tear themselves loose from His grip and fall prey to Satan (John 10:27–30). So the above is one side "The perseverance of the Saints". Next up "Once saved always saved" Or a better term "Eternal Security." |
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Post by charlie24 on Aug 18, 2022 9:39:48 GMT -8
Yes, I agree we must remain in Christ. My point, contrary to the Calvinist way is that man has free will to choose Christ. The faith that got us in is the faith that keeps us in. The Calvinist will say we can't depart from Christ, we have no choice in the matter. This is OSAS for all the wrong reasons. I have stated I have no problem with OSAS on other forums, while at the same time not agreeing with it. Your post struck me as being the Calvinist way of OSAS and not of free will. It looks that I have made a mistake in assuming that. Yes, that certainly sounds like Calvinism, but not sure what you believe. I see the "elect" differently than what you have given here, not sure if you are just stating this or actually believe it. Calvin is you might say, the father of all this, he made OSAS famous through his false teaching. What Calvin never considered is that God predestined man through a plan of redemption. God does not choose who will be saved and who will not, He chose a certain way of how all men would be redeemed. Man was predestined before the foundation of the world to be redeemed through His redemption plan. After Gen. 3 (the fall) the theme of the Scripture is God's redemption plan. I would think Calvin's strongest case for predestination is found in Rom. 8:30. "Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Let's back up to the previous vs. 29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." God knew before he created man who would believe and who wouldn't "whom He did foreknow." These who would believe He predestined to be conformed into the image of His Son. Here is the plan of redemption that God did predestinate for believing man to be redeemed. His plan of redemption is how we are conformed into the image of His Son. |
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nahum
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by nahum on Aug 18, 2022 10:09:35 GMT -8
Ask God directly and persistently, and he will show you that you don't have to believe the lie of Eternal Security to be saved, nor do you have to live in fear without it.
Since it is God and Christ who offer eternal life and eternal security to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, this is simply a nonsensical statement. You are in fact calling them liars. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 18, 2022 10:24:42 GMT -8
Yes, salvation is not possible apart from obedience to God.
The despicable life of Lot shows that Faith trumps Disobedience.....Lot constantly went against the Ways and the Desires Of God....Yet he was a Saved man and even referred to as a “ Hero Of Faith” in the Book Of Hebrews.....He did Wrong constantly and paid for his wicked ways in his lifetime.....yet , his Soul was Saved because of his Faith in God....kinda like us.....
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