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Post by civic on Nov 5, 2022 3:48:26 GMT -8
augustine brought that teaching into the church. It did not exist until that time. Original sin came from him via Platonism, Stoicism, Gnosticism, Greek Philosophy. He mixed those things with christian thought and teachings.
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Nov 5, 2022 5:43:21 GMT -8
We are not Sinners because we sin......we sin because we are Sinners
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Post by civic on Nov 5, 2022 6:26:49 GMT -8
We are not Sinners because we sin......we sin because we are Sinners I know thats the consensus in Christendom. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 8:05:24 GMT -8
We inherited that. It was not the way God made us. So when were we made before we inherited Adam's sin by being born? I never said that. Why don't you respond to what I did post instead of creating straw men? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 8:49:50 GMT -8
There is not a person born who does not inherit these things. There is no more proof that we inherit these things... Sure there is. I provided the explanation, and you are ignoring it. So how about you show up and engage the evidence provided? We know there are a huge pile of imperfections we inherit from our ancestors. Conditions like Sickle Cell Aneia, Cystic Fibrosis, Down's Syndrome, Fragile X, Huntington's Disease and more are all inherited! The list of inherited abnormalities is very long. God did not make Adam and Eve with any of them. God made A&E good. It says so right in Genesis 1:31. Those two were good, unashamed (Gen. 2:25), and sinless (Rom. 5:12). That all changed at Genesis 3:6. You see, I am not adding interpretations to scripture as you do. You can look up those verses and see what I just posted is what scripture actually states. The good, unashamed, and sinless humans living in a good an sinless world changed everything when Adam ate the forbidden kiwi. It says so in Genesis 3 and Romans 5:12. Genesis 3:14-24 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you will go, and dust you will eat all the days of your life; and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel." To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; and you will eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you will eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. - Enmity was sown between the serpent and the woman and her seed. God did that.
- Eve's birth pain was multiplied and her children would be brought forth in pain (check the Hebrew here because this is Christological).
- She would desire her husband and he would rule over her (where previously she had been his helpmete made from his side).
- The ground was cursed.
- His eating would be in toil all his days.
- He would return to dust (no longer able to eat from the tree of life); they would not live forever.
- Adam and Eve now knew good and evil, and not solely goodness, solely unashamedness, solely sinlessness. They have become adulterated in many ways.
- The were prohibited from returning to Eden.
Romans 5 tells us sin entered the world, not just Eden. Romans 8 tells us all creation was subjected to futility and waits for the sons of God to be revealed. In other words, there are no sons of God revealed. There was no disease. All creation worked according to God's purpose. Every single plant and creature produced progeny according to their kind as God had designed them to do, and Adam and Eve were sovereign over all of it - divinely mandated stewards of the earth who were blessed with the authority to subdue the earth and rule over it (Gen. 1). The fact that aberrant diseases exist is evidence all things changed. The fact that some of these diseases are inherited is proof sin can be inherited. Sin is imperfection. Sin is not just lawlessness. The Bible defines sin in many ways in many places and anyone couching their understanding of sin solely in 1 John 3:4 is wrong. Thier knowledge and understanding is incomplete at best, woefully ignorant at worst. Sin is imperfection and imperfection comes in many forms. Lawlessness is only one form of imperfection. Any and all unrighteousness is another form. Any and all lack of faith is another. More specifically, as I cited in my first post, the experience Adam and Eve endured was traumatic. Trauma changes the brain. Trauma changes the brain on a cellular level permanently! PERMANENTLY It is no different than the law of gravity. Adam's and Eve's brains changed that day they disobeyed God, and then again when they were cursed. Two traumas in one day. We have "walking" CAT Scans that changing in real time. We have before and after X-rays, MRIs, and CTScans documenting the irreparable effected of trauma on the brain. This is a scientifically documented fact. It is irrefutable. We have research completely unknown in Augustine's day that shows correlations between traumas and cancer. This is not psychology. This information was first discovered by an oncologist (a medical doctor specializing in cancer) researching cancer of the spleen. Trauma can affect the spleen! Who knew?!?! Turns out a history of trauma can adversely affect a variety of systems in the human body, including the autoimmune system (cancer is an autoimmune disease). In other words, it's not just mental health that is affected; it is the human physiology. An outside event can have severe and very real effect on both the body and the soul of a human. And humanity has NEVER experienced a greater trauma than Genesis 3:6 and 3:24. NEVER And I should not have to repeat this. I should be able to post this once and then have you respond to it but that is not what you are doing. I am explaining why Augustine is irrelevant! Two imperfect people do not create perfect progeny. It is a logical impossibility, and we now know how this happens on a genetic level. It has nothing to do with Augustine. No, there are centuries of proof. It's not dependent upon Augustine, and you are not engaging what I have brought to bear on this op. Sin is inherited that is demonstrably provable. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 8:52:02 GMT -8
We are not Sinners because we sin......we sin because we are Sinners I would say that's a false dichotomy. We sin because we're sinful and we're sinful because we sin. The problem is not linear. It's a feedback loop of reciprocity in which sin and sinfulness feed on each other. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 9:02:23 GMT -8
augustine brought that teaching into the church. It did not exist until that time. Original sin came from him via Platonism, Stoicism, Gnosticism, Greek Philosophy. He mixed those things with christian thought and teachings. Little of that is correct. Augustine did not invent Christianity. Neither did Augustine invent the doctrine of original or inherited sin. But, more importantly, Augustine is irrelevant because we have plenty of scientific evidence proving the effects of Adam's disobedience were in fact passed on to his progeny and in many ways. Furthermore, I will suggest if ALL those paganisms understood the problem of inheritance than that is likely a reflection of God's truth found throughout the world in incomplete form. No one has to be a Christian to understand the problem of sin. They might not call it "sin," but whatever they call it, they know it is real and inherited. Perhaps more importantly and most germane to this thread is the problem of onus. Anyone appealing to false teachings by Augustine to repudiate the inheritance of sin must 1) show what Augustine taught, 2) explain how and why that content is wrong when measured by well-rendered scripture, and 3) prove inherited sin can't be proved some other way. Augustine could be wrong and inherited sin still be true. No one here is even remotely close to posting any of that. Is this thread going to turn into a rag on Augustine or is going to remain on topic and discuss the specific matter of inherited sin? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 9:12:13 GMT -8
No one is guilty of sin until they sin  Relevance? |
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TedT
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Post by TedT on Nov 5, 2022 10:07:08 GMT -8
No one is guilty of sin until they sin :) But people die in the womb and since death is the wages of sin, not a consequence of life, death in the womb impies the fetus was sinful... Being sinful before birth and the ability to choose to rebel and sin implies: 1. either YHWH made us to be sinners BY SOME MEANS (such as inherited sinfulness) at the time HE created us in the womb or 2. we actually did exist before the creation of the physical universe [and saw the proof of GOD' divinity and eternal power as Job 38:7 and Rom 1:18-20 says when taken at face value], and during this time made our free will decisions about our eternal relationship with HIM as under HIS promise of election or under condemnation... Since I fully champion the idea of the perfectly righteous, loving and just nature of HIS holiness, I decry against any interpretation of scripture that makes GOD the creator of any evil by any means as wrong, an error of the thinking of sinful man. Nor do I give credence to the idea that by giving us a free will that allowed us to create evil in HIS creation made HIM responsible for the creation of evil as its creator. Our free will was an absolute necessity to make us actually guilty of the sins we choose and to fulfill HIS purpose in our heavenly marriage with HIM as a loving marriage is not real if forced or coerced by another' will. But that does not mean HE creates the evils we create in our hearts and desires: James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “ God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.Thus I have firmly put my faith in # 2, above, that we chose to be sinful by our free will in our existence as spirits prior to the creation of this physical world which was created to be the prison of the irredeemable demons who sinned the unforgivable sin containing within it a rehab centre for the sinful elect to be brought to redemption and full sanctification in part by learning the lessons that living with the reprobate weeds would provide to us. |
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TedT
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Post by TedT on Nov 5, 2022 10:09:55 GMT -8
So when were we made before we inherited Adam's sin by being born? I never said that. Why don't you respond to what I did post instead of creating straw men? Of course you never said it but you do ignore that it is implied in your pov... |
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TedT
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Post by TedT on Nov 5, 2022 10:17:19 GMT -8
We are not Sinners because we sin......we sin because we are Sinners This implies that we are sinners by creation, not by our free will. It is the pagan, Eastern mystical and Masonic god who does, creates, both righteousness and evil, about as anti-YHWH as one can get. <head shake> <facepalm> |
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TedT
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Post by TedT on Nov 5, 2022 10:36:21 GMT -8
There is no more proof that we inherit these things... Sure there is. I provided the explanation, and you are ignoring it. You interpretation of scripture is NOT PROOF you are right which is hubris. I do not offer verses as proof of my suggestions any more than any verse proves to the point of shutting down all alternatives about any Christian doctrine. I ask only that they be read, holding sceptical criticism in abeyance for a bit, to see if the words can in fact be interpreted to support my contentions. That is, though it might not be the true interpretation I contend that they CAN in fact be read my way without any tricks or damage to the language...or blasphemy towards GOD Repudiating another's suggestions of interpretation due to past decisions about the alternative interpretation without recourse to the actual words of the new idea is mere eisegetics. In 2 Corinthians 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight, sight implies proof. NO SECT / PERSON HAS PROOF, just faith. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 12:13:59 GMT -8
I never said that. Why don't you respond to what I did post instead of creating straw men? but you do ignore that it is implied in your pov... It was not implied. You read something into the post not implied, and not intended. Please stop doing so and stick to what is actually posted. I will not argue things I did not say, do not intend, do not believe, and nor will I argue with strawmen. If the reconciliation between God's making us and our inheriting sin is desired because you yourself do not yet understand how that could possibly be the case then say so, but please do not under any circumstance put words in my posts I did not write and then tell me I ignored what I did say. Please stick to what I actually posted. If you cannot do so, then please ignore my posts in their entirety. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 12:15:53 GMT -8
Sure there is. I provided the explanation, and you are ignoring it. You interpretation of scripture is NOT PROOF you are right which is hubris. Thank you for your time. Let me know whe there's an interest in what I actually posted. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Nov 5, 2022 14:56:53 GMT -8
This implies that we are sinners by creation, not by our free will. It is the pagan, Eastern mystical and Masonic god who does, creates, both righteousness and evil, about as anti-YHWH as one can get. <head shake> <facepalm>
We are all born with a Sin Nature That was inherited from Adam....that is why we must be “ Born Again”.....
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