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Post by bloodbought1953 on Nov 5, 2022 15:00:50 GMT -8
I would say that's a false dichotomy. We sin because we're sinful and we're sinful because we sin. The problem is not linear. It's a feedback loop of reciprocity in which sin and sinfulness feed on each other.
Regardless—— we are born Sinners and we are going to die Sinners....best we can do is accept the Gift Of Grace that covers all of those sins......it’s that “ Inputed Righteousness” thingy.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2022 6:16:49 GMT -8
This implies that we are sinners by creation, not by our free will. It is the pagan, Eastern mystical and Masonic god who does, creates, both righteousness and evil, about as anti-YHWH as one can get. <head shake> <facepalm> Remove the word " sinners" and replace it with the word " sinful." We're not sinners until we sin, but we sin because we're sinful. I know. It's hard fro some of you to get your heads around this. It's hard because sin is being defined by one verse (1 John 3:4) instead of the whole of scripture. A fuller knowledge and understanding of sin will come from looking at all that scripture has to say on the matter. Got scripture for that? The term "sinful nature" is very popular nowadays but it's not in the scriptures. Dynamic translations use the phrase but the Greek term it is translating is " sarx," or " flesh." We all have a flesh nature. What does that mean because according to Genesis 1:31 the flesh God made was good, not sinful. What changed? Go back and read through my posts to understand how the flesh literally changed at the moment of Adam's (and Eve's) disobedience. Eastern mysticism and Masonic gods have nothing to do with what I have posted and rather than reading others' posts for implications, first try reading what is actually stated. We need to be born anew from above because we are dead in transgression. Death came to all through one man's disobedience. All will sin. Only by believing in Christ can anyone have any right to being a son, born not of blood or will, but of God (Jn. 1:12-13). No one else qualifies. And that is sinful. I encourage everyone to stop limiting their understanding of sin by 1 John 3:4 and examine the whole of scripture on the matter. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Nov 6, 2022 8:23:59 GMT -8
We are all born with a Sin Nature That was inherited from Adam.... that is why we must be “ Born Again”.....
Got scripture for that?
Romans 5:12——-“ Sin entered the world through one man and death came to all because all have sinned”
Romans 6:6 —— “ We know that our Old Self was crucified with Him” .....
David said in Psalms that he was “ Sinful from birth”.....” even from birth we go astray”....” from the womb one is wayward...”
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TedT
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Post by TedT on Nov 6, 2022 12:31:05 GMT -8
It was not implied. You read something into the post not implied, and not intended. Please stop doing so and stick to what is actually posted. Now you imply what I did not intend!! I did not mean that you implied nor that you intended to imply anything... but that the logic of the theology certainly implies that to many folk. Hoist by... what is it? |
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TedT
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Post by TedT on Nov 6, 2022 13:48:09 GMT -8
We are all born with a Sin Nature That was inherited from Adam.... that is why we must be “ Born Again”..... Inheriting sin from Adam by our conception in his bloodline is not the only way one can be a sinner from conception IF he sinned before he was sown into the body at conception as per Matt 13:36-39... Please consider: Psalm 139:15 My (David) frame was not hidden from YOU when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, YOUR eyes saw my unformed body. 16 All the days ordained for me were written in YOUR book before one of them came to be.Any bets on whether or not the secret place is synonymous with the depths of the earth? Probably, eh? How can the womb be the secret place and also in the depths of the earth? Of course, you know that the depths of the Earth are also known as Sheol, ie, the place of our after-life whom the wicked are specifically said to return to at death, Psalm 9:17, the KJV attempt at eisegesis notwithstanding. I'd also say that from verse 16, he seems to be a little bit in favour of the doctrine of the complete predestination (preplanning) of everyone of our days on Earth. And what do you think he meant by unformed body? According to PCE theology, each of us has such a body, but it’s not this earthly formed one. It’s the spirit one GOD created us with. 1. Adam was the third to sin in the garden so the only way sin could have entered the garden was if he was a sinner when he was breathed into his body as the first person in the garden. 2. it is seen as implied that their sin came from Adam but it is not a necessary interpretation of this verse at all IF they were already sinners before their conception. Your interpretation fits your theology, but not necessarily what is written. ...says nothing about where our old sinful self came from or what caused it. To blame GOD for making us sinners in Adam with no free will decision to sin on our part nor any mens rea is anathema. Light cannot create dark. Good cannot create evil. You don't have to convince me that we are sinners at conception, the story of Jacob and Esau trying to murder each other (literally: trying to crush each other to pieces) in the womb taught me that a loooong time ago. But you might want to take another look at that story, especially verse: Genesis 25:23 and He declared to her:
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”in which HE told Rebecca that they were fighting so hard trying to be the first born and so have power over the other... BUT how could they know these things about the Hebrew law of primogeniture and what family they were being born into if they were newly created tabula rasa??? Please consider: Psalm 139:15 My (David) frame was not hidden from YOU when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, YOUR eyes saw my unformed body. 16 All the days ordained for me were written in YOUR book before one of them came to be.Any bets on whether or not the secret place is synonymous with the depths of the earth? Probably so, eh? So then, David says that he was created in the depths of the Earth. IF the secret place is the womb, then how could he claim this is fact?? And of course you know that the depths of the Earth are also known as Sheol, ie, the place of our after-life, to which the wicked RETURN as per Ps 9:17, implying they came from there, the KJV bit of eisegesis notwithstanding. And what do you think he meant by unformed body? According to PCE theology, each of us has such a body, but it’s not this earthly formed one. It’s the one GOD created us with.... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 6:00:19 GMT -8
It was not implied. You read something into the post not implied, and not intended. Please stop doing so and stick to what is actually posted. Now you imply what I did not intend!! The post states what the post states and what the post states is, " This implies that we are sinners by creation, not by our free will. It is the pagan, Eastern mystical and Masonic god who does, creates, both righteousness and evil, about as anti-YHWH as one can get," and " You interpretation of scripture is NOT PROOF you are right which is hubris," and this post to which I now reply contains nothing related to either this op or my replies to this op. I do not need to infer anything other than what is plainly stated to see the dross. Therefore, as I said before, Thank you for your time. Let me know when there's an op-relevant interest in what I actually posted. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 10:23:44 GMT -8
An argument has been made based on Matthew 13:36-39, and the proof-texted verse, Psalm 139:15. Matthew 13:36-43 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Psalm 139:15My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth...Matthew 13 text is figurative. If we were to take it literally then we'd have to say tares are always tares and the produce of the "good seeds" are always going to be good plants, not tares. We'd also have to concede a power to satan that he does not have: the ability to create human life. A created creature would have the ability to create other creatures; creatures he created. All of that would incline us to say sin is inherited. Thos who are tares, the seed of tares are always tares. Notice Psalm 139:15 does not say anything about sin. It says nothing about sin one direction or another. The psalm is predominantly about God, not humanity. Verse 15 has been removed from its context and through an inferential reading of the single verse a question is being asked: Does God make sinful creatures? Because verses 13 through 16 speak about God forming us the question is, " How can we be born with an inherited sinfulness if God formed us in the womb and we weren't made in secret?" The answer is very, very simple. God is sovereign! God is sovereign, even over sin. Our being sinful does not prevent God from forming us. When this is understood the question " How can God make sinful people?" turns out to be irrelevant. It means God is not making sinful people. He is taking a creature He created good but has become something different than he originally made them and continuing to assert His will and purpose in their making. Consider this: God did not lose just one or two humans when Adam disobeyed God. God lost all humanity! God did not just lose a question or matter of probability. The Bible speaks of sin as an inevitability (and no one here so far has disputed this). All will sin. Perhaps that was the case in Eden but we're not told that. What we are told (in 1 Cor. 15) is that humans were sown corruptible and mortal. Adam and Eve were sown corruptible, then became corrupted by their own disobedience (which was not measured by the Law, btw), and they will be raised incorruptible if the believe in the name of God's one and only Son. So we see there are three conditions, not two. Most participants in this thread appear to understand this even though no one until now has posted it explicitly. - Not yet corrupted but corruptible.
- Corrupted.
- Incorruptible.
. This is additionally important because God made Adam and Eve uncorrupted but capable of corruption and He called it good. This is a particularly curious condition given the question upon which the position denying inherited sin is based. If God cannot make already corrupted creatures, then how can He make corruptible creatures? Why doesn't He make every creature good in always and incapable of any possible corruption? How can He call this good? How is it the question of corruptibility isn't a problem, but the question of corruption is? In other words, there are several problems (deficits or inconsistencies) in the denial of inherited sin if it's going to be based on Matthew 13 and Psalm 139. So numerous are these problems that the argument cannot be deemed a correct exegesis or sound reason. This is especially true since these difficulties are so easily solved with an appeal to God's might. Sin did not and does not cause God any problem at all. If He so chooses, He can take a sinful creature and work with it in any way He so chooses for any purpose He so chooses. Every single one of the redeemed and regenerate among us have been made into something we were not previously AND God did that while we were yet sinful. But for some so far unexplained reason God can't do that in the womb. Only after the womb, only after an act of disobedience has committed can God work upon the sinful creature and make it otherwise. If that is the argument underlying the denial of inherited sin then this is a very serious problem because followed to its logically necessary conclusion it limits God and will end up compromising the doctrine of Divine Omnipotence. The larger truth is that of 1 Peter 1:20. 1 Peter 1:17-21 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. The occurrence of disobedience and the consequent introduction of sin and death into the world did not and does not prove an obstacle to God at all! Christ was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice that make it possible for the corruptible human that had become corrupted to eventually be made incorruptible. Any thought that some creature might not move from corruptible to corrupted is thoroughly refuted by scripture. ALL have sinned and ALL will sin. There is only one perfect person, and he was foreknown before any of us were created as perfect; the perfect sacrifice, perfectly obedient, perfectly submitted, perfectly perfect in all thought, word, will, and deed. To suggest this as something some human might possibly accomplish is heresy because it means humanity can save itself (all we need is a human who can live without becoming corrupted), Jesus isn't necessarily unique, and humanity might not have needed Jesus. The doctrine of original sin, or inherited sin is true and correct AND it is true and correct in several ways and there are too many holes in the dissent presented in this thread for it to be valid. Imperfect creatures do not procreate perfect progeny but that is not a problem for God. He can and does continue to knit humans together in the womb in that condition. He lets them live out their life knowing some will end in utter, violent, painful destruction while others never end because they are raised to a new state: that of incorruptible immortality. |
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