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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 11:28:05 GMT -8
No, the possibility of sinning is not a sin, but it is a problem to be solved. I still feel you are painting corruptibility as somehow a bad or negative thing. Well..... I cannot dictate your feelings, your perceptions of my views don't have anything to do with what I actually posted, I have not actually said corruptibility is sinful AND I have expressly stated it is not, and I'm not a big fan of one poster telling another poster what the poster means in abdication of assuming responsibility for their own perceptions.  The fact is Adam and Eve were "perfect" in the sense they were 1) good, 2) unashamed, and 3) sinless. That's what scripture tells us. They were perfect but incomplete. They were corruptible and immortal and they existed as corruptible and mortal in a good and sinless world. There was no sin in the world prior to Genesis 3:6/Rom. 5:12! How could corruptibleness be sinful if God plainly states it is good and sinless? So don't put something I never said on me. Adam and Eve were perfect but incomplete. They were always going to have to rely on the tree of life if they were going to be immortal. There's no other way to immortality than the tree of life and as we read through the whole of scripture, we learn that tree of life is Christ incarnate, dead, resurrected, and alive. We are complete only in Christ. So stop feeling I'm painting something sinful, bad, or negative and give thought, not emotion, to what I actually posted. If you're not already recognizing the scriptures I've indirectly referenced than ask and I'll elaborate with specific scriptures because every word I have written is found right there in our Bibles. 1 Corinthians 15:42-54
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality.....The Greek word here translated as " perishable" is the word for decay or corruption, not death. To read it as death would be redundant to being mortal. I've used the NAS but, on this occasion, the KJV does a more accurate job. We were "sown" corruptible but, praise be to God, we the redeemed and regenerate believers will be raised incorruptible and immortal. We will not remain corruptible. Note: we're digressing from the topic of Christ's impeccability. Humans are not impeccable. Jesus is. . |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 23, 2022 13:54:56 GMT -8
Could Jesus have sinned ?
Jesus as a human could have sinned. For being humanity made him temptable.
Jesus, our high priest, is able to understand our weaknesses. When Jesus lived
on earth, he was tempted in every way. He was tempted in the same ways
we are tempted, but he never sinned." Hebrews 4:15
Adam was created sinless, but that did not make him unable to be tempted. Jesus as a man was meant by the Father to be placed in that same position Adam found himself to prove that Bible Doctrine, when obeyed, would overcome all His enemies.
Not that he would sin. But, Jesus needed to be able to sin if he chose to. For He was placed in a unique position. To be the one who was pioneering, testing, and developing a prototype spiritual system. That once proven to be true.. that God would later hand that system over to Christians to benefit those who will choose to walk in the Spirit.
If Jesus could not have sinned? Then his guidance for us would be meaningless. It could not apply!
For if he could not sin? It would mean he never identified with us in human weakness as needed to overcome our temptations. He suffered and developed counters to all temptations by means of the Father and Holy Spirit enabling him. Thus making Him un-temptable once he faces all possible temptations!
Though Adam could sin. He did not have to sin.
In part.. Jesus came as a man to show the Devil that God did not goof when He created Adam. For Adam did not have to sin. Jesus as a man proved it.
The difference between Jesus and Adam was his obedience to the truth that Adam disobeyed. The same kind of truth that Satan learned to despise. Truth that we need to learn to love as to become an Over Comer!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2022 6:06:01 GMT -8
No, the possibility of sinning is not a sin, but it is a problem to be solved. Setting aside that the argument that 1 Cor. 15 is talking about natural corruptibility (the body physically degenerating), we can still contest the point that the mere state of corruptibility is somehow something that needs "solving." Nowhere is it insinuated that it would have been an inferior or bad thing for Adam and Eve to obediently continue in their Edenic paradise—there was nothing inferior about their state, as if it were an unresolved chord or an unfinished symphony. They experienced unhindered intimacy with God's glory. Hmmm... I don't think that has been sufficiently thought through. First, if incorruptibility isn't something to be solved (because it is an incomplete state, not because it is morally wrong) then why change it. 1 Cor. 15 clearly tells us that state will be changed. Why? What's you answer to that question? Second, 1 Cor. 15 tells us " flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Weren't Adam and Eve were made of flesh and blood? If so then they could not enter God's kingdom. That is definitely a problem to be solved. Third, Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. Being good and sinless alone does not get one to God. Even the good and sinless must have Jesus. This fact begs a variety of other questions beginning with who or what is Jesus. Of particular importance to this thread, Jesus is not only the perfect, blemish-free, sinless sacrifice, he is THE resurrection and the life, the only way to the Father, the one through whom ALL must come...... the tree of life. Adam and Eve were supposed to eat from the tree of life. They were not supposed to eat from the tree in the middle of the garden. Had they eaten from the tree of life they'd have had life, a life different than the one they originally possessed. This is made very clear at the end of Genesis 3. Lastly, they did not enjoy unhindered intimacy with God. That is just wrong. They enjoyed fellowship with God but that occurred only when God came to walk in the garden with them. The very first verse of the Bible makes it very clear there is some kind of divide between the heavens and the earth. This is expounded upon later as the biblical account unfolds. Adam and Eve were not in heaven, they were on earth. They lived in a spatial and temporal world that is much different than that of the heavens. God is everywhere all at once. Adam and Eve were not, even in the good and sinless state. That is the problem to be solved. There's nothing inherently immoral or sinful about it but it is not the fullness of God that would one day be possible, and corruptible and mortal is definitely a lesser state than incorruptible and immortal. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2022 6:16:04 GMT -8
No, the possibility of sinning is not a sin, but it is a problem to be solved. The reason there will not be sin in heaven, is not because we will all be spiritually neutered and zombified, but because our previous choices will put us in a place where (1) our will is completely united and determined in our choice for good, and (2) there will be no corrupting influences. It will not be because we are forced to be that way by removing our free will. This is logical error—insisting that the only logical way of preventing sin is to remove free will is simply an incorrect deduction, it is a non sequitur. Lame straw man. No one has said anything about about being spiritually neutered or zombified but you. No one said free will will be removed. You've asserted a completely false, misrepresentative position and then argued against it. It's dishonest. It's the kind of thing that won't happen on the other side of the grave. When you say our choices will be completely determined it sounds like spiritual neutering and zombification. If there are no corrupting influences then doesn't that include the human. No human will be a corrupting influences and nothing within the human will be corrupting? Think of James 1:13-14. There will be no desires that entice and drag away to lead to sin. The logical errors (and the lack of scripture) are not on my end of this digression. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2022 7:40:42 GMT -8
Jesus as a human could have sinned. For being humanity made him temptable.............. Got scripture for either statement? Jesus was human, and he was fully human, but he was not only fully human. Neither was he sinful human. He was fundamentally different from every single one of us three ways. - He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
- His being made flesh was in the flesh of the pre-disobedient Adam, not the post-disobedient Adam.
- He is God.
Furthermore, James tells us we are tempted by our own desires, our own lusts that entice us and drag us away to sin. If we apply James 1:13-14 to Jesus and we survey the entire Bible what desires or lusts do we find the Bible identifying in Jesus? I can find the Bible identifying Jesus' desires, but I cannot find the Bible identifying a single untoward desire or lust in Jesus at all. I, therefore, think you should reconsider your statements in light of actual scripture and not inferences or assumptions made apart from scripture based solely on his humanity. Remember: Jesus greatly expanded the definition of sin to go far beyond mere behavior, mere violations of a written law. He made our thought life culpable (if you lust after a woman who is not your wife then you've committed adultery). He taught the apostles to teach us sin is not merely lawlessness but is also all unrighteousness and anything not done in faith. So, when scripture tells us Jesus was a man who knew no sin we should necessarily understand he did not know sin in his flesh, in his mind or heart, in this thought, in his affect, his volition..... no where did he know sin. Being human did not make Jesus temptable. But, if shown the scripture actually stating that then I'll reconsider my position. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 24, 2022 14:20:32 GMT -8
I wonder what some here think being "temptable" means? Do you see temptation as being sin?
If Jesus were not temptable the Devil would not have wasted time with Jesus in the great temptation.
Temptation is being offered an option as a solution to a problem that does not agree with the Word of God.
What kept Jesus free of temptation? It was learning and knowing the Word of God.
Is being hungry as sin? No.
But, Satan tried to exploit Jesus' hunger after he fasted for 40 days.
But, was the temptation about food?
No...
It was about Satan tempting Jesus to take back up his powers of Deity (that were rightfully his) and to provide for himself his own food.
Instead of Jesus of giving in, he needed to remain as a man to qualify to die in our place. That meant to remain fully dependent upon the Father and Holy Spirit for all his needs.
Having come down from heaven where He was before the Incarnation, where anything he wanted was always being done automatically in the power of God? To be experiencing weakness as a man had been foreign to him. But, this weakness he needed to experience as a man, and served as a great temptation for him to escape from.
We have a hard time identifying with that situation Jesus was in. It would be like billionaire hiding away all his money and agreeing to live as an average person for a given amount of time, agreeing not to touch his great wealth to solve his problems. Those whom he left his wealth under their care he would have to petition for what was needed, but always must petition according to rules that had to be strictly followed as to prove himself worthy to be revealed as a righteous man.
enuf for now.......
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 24, 2022 14:39:23 GMT -8
I wonder what some here think being "temptable" means? If Jesus were not temptable the Devil would not have wasted time with Jesus in the great temptation. Sometimes is better to remain silent. Welcome to the forum genez J.
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 24, 2022 19:00:59 GMT -8
Sometimes is better to remain silent.
Welcome to the forum genez
J. How did you mean that? Silent because I would be wasting my time explaining?
Or, silent, because I ended up saying a wrong thing?
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 24, 2022 19:24:15 GMT -8
I see you are going to be the self righteous one here? ............................
You just motivated me in finding out where the Ignore feature for this forum is to be found.
You want silence from me? Learn to use it.
Ah, be my guest and go on right ahead. This is not Facebook or any heteros forum, the Admin and civic are zealous for the cause of Christ Jesus and I was invited here, not to do my own "thang" and don't forget, iron sharpens iron. Christ knew NO hamatia and was/haya/is have no "sin-consciousness" Shalom J. As created by God, Adam knew no sin.
Adam, till he ate of the forbidden tree was also not sin conscious. If Adam (having no fallen nature) was tempted from an evil, independent external source? And, Adam so chose? He could have sinned by giving into the temptation.
Once Adam fell he had a sin nature in his flesh. From then on, that sin nature became its own source for sinning. No longer only an external source for temptation.
It says that Jesus was the Second Adam. Jesus succeeded where Adam had failed. Jesus by faithfulness to the Word of God was able to resist the external temptations that came his way.
Unlike Jesus, we are born with no choice not to sin. For the major source from temptation is our fallen state. Many temptations and sin originate from within ourselves. From our flesh.
Jesus being impeccable knew no sin as such. All his temptations had to come from an external source. That is why Jesus being tempted is not a sin. Giving into a temptation is what constitutes sin.
You think to be tempted is to sin?
I have studied harmaritology.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 25, 2022 8:49:52 GMT -8
No genez, don`t do it! You can`t win Rock.
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Post by resurrection33 on Aug 25, 2022 9:47:00 GMT -8
Jesus as a human could have sinned. For being humanity made him temptable.
Jesus, our high priest, is able to understand our weaknesses. When Jesus lived
on earth, he was tempted in every way. He was tempted in the same ways
we are tempted, but he never sinned." Hebrews 4:15
Adam was created sinless, but that did not make him unable to be tempted. Jesus as a man was meant by the Father to be placed in that same position Adam found himself to prove that Bible Doctrine, when obeyed, would overcome all His enemies.
Not that he would sin. But, Jesus needed to be able to sin if he chose to. For He was placed in a unique position. To be the one who was pioneering, testing, and developing a prototype spiritual system. That once proven to be true.. that God would later hand that system over to Christians to benefit those who will choose to walk in the Spirit.
If Jesus could not have sinned? Then his guidance for us would be meaningless. It could not apply!
For if he could not sin? It would mean he never identified with us in human weakness as needed to overcome our temptations. He suffered and developed counters to all temptations by means of the Father and Holy Spirit enabling him. Thus making Him un-temptable once he faces all possible temptations!
Though Adam could sin. He did not have to sin.
In part.. Jesus came as a man to show the Devil that God did not goof when He created Adam. For Adam did not have to sin. Jesus as a man proved it.
The difference between Jesus and Adam was his obedience to the truth that Adam disobeyed. The same kind of truth that Satan learned to despise. Truth that we need to learn to love as to become an Over Comer!
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 26, 2022 13:54:29 GMT -8
Let me try again How was Jesus tempted? Peiradzo Dokimazo Like you are tempting me to lose my patience, with you. |
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Post by civic on Aug 26, 2022 13:58:35 GMT -8
Like you are tempting me to lose my patience, with you. Lol 😂 that was funny |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 26, 2022 15:17:12 GMT -8
genez Yeah? how much patience do you have left? Long enough to see you bounced out of here if you persist in the counter edification mode you seem to prefer. Yet also? Patient enough to endure, to see if you will finally want to start contributing something constructive here. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 26, 2022 22:36:26 GMT -8
genez I haven't even started yet, you and joseph would love to get me outta here, ain't gonna happen, see, I know you, you think with a Western mindset and worldview, you come from CF. Well, how's stunnebygrace? Still stunned? I haven't seen anything from you yet, just your opinion that Messiah Yeshua, the Ehyeh asher Ehyeh, could succumb to or yield to temptations. That is blasphemous. Messiah Yeshua is/haya God in the flesh, the God Man. J.
If Jesus could not be tempted? He could not offer solutions for you when you are tempted.
Jesus was not dumb when it comes to understanding temptation. He needed to suffer through each temptation he faced as he sought the perfect solution in truth to nullify the power of each temptation.
If he could not be tempted? He could not have suffered to perfect our faith to have.
You would have nothing left to defend yourself with but apathy and emotional impotence to resist temptation with.
The following passage from Hebrews 5:7-12 is about how Jesus painfully faced temptations..
(And, how even back then certain believers were being dense in understanding it)
If Jesus sinned just once? He would have had instantly experienced spiritual death.
Spiritual death just like Adam died spiritually when he ate the fruit.
For Adam when he ate he died. Died not physically. But, died *spiritually.* (Genesis 2:17)
Hebrews 5:7-10 is an account of how Jesus needed to painfully suffer through his temptations awaiting the solution from the Father to keep on remaining pure. (and, its also about also how certain believers were dense in comprehending the truth of what Jesus had suffered through)
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions
with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and
he was heard because of his reverent submission. Son though he was, he learned
obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the
source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God
to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Jesus became the author and finisher of our faith through that process! For, it says...
Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect,
he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him!
Someone here will get it. But, not everyone back then understood those words either. For it also says...
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you
no longer try to understand. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers,
you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again.
You need milk, not solid food!
Hebrews 5:7-12 ....................
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