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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 10:44:51 GMT -8
genez I haven't even started yet, you and joseph would love to get me outta here, ain't gonna happen, see, I know you, you think with a Western mindset and worldview, you come from CF. Well, how's stunnebygrace? Still stunned? I haven't seen anything from you yet, just your opinion that Messiah Yeshua, the Ehyeh asher Ehyeh, could succumb to or yield to temptations. That is blasphemous. Messiah Yeshua is/haya God in the flesh, the God Man. J.
If Jesus could not be tempted? He could not offer solutions for you when you are tempted.
Jesus was not dumb when it comes to understanding temptation. He needed to suffer through each temptation he faced as he sought the perfect solution in truth to nullify the power of each temptation.
That's all backwards. Of course Jesus can offer solutions for us when we are tempted even if he could not be tempted. James 1 makes it very clear God is not tempted, and yet He clearly offered a solution for when we are tempted. It is because Jesus could not be tempted that he is able to offer solutions. No one has even remotely insinuated Jesus is dumb. That's just a blatant red herring evidenced a failed understanding of scripture, the conversation being had, and the sound doctrine upon which we should all be standing. Jesus suffered because he lived among the sinful and was exposed to all the sins of humanity. The Righteous One living among the depraved. None of us knows what that was like. You have said he needed to suffer through each temptation he faced as he sought the perfect solution. This implies he didn't already possess the solution, lacked the knowledge necessary to solve the problem of sin, and had to go find it even though that solution is his very being, not knowledge or action. Not only are those some of the undeniable implications of claims, but I'd like you to show me where the Bible shows us Jesus suffering through the temptation to steal from someone. Where does scripture show Jesus suffering through the temptation wanting to murder someone. Or how about showing me where scripture reports him wanting to sodomize little boys, carve them up, cook them, and the eat them. Don't have Jesus Lite. Have the guy who looked all of human depravity square in the face unassailed because he is impeccable. James says we are tempted by our own lusts that entice us and drag us away to sin. Show me single example of scripture reporting Jesus having any enticement by which he might be dragged away to sin. When you don't find such an example embrace the silence and accept there were none. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 29, 2022 12:02:37 GMT -8
Oh yes I do.... Just not walking into what I find as your restrictive mode. Attributional bias. You created the problem. When it was engaged non sequitur was posted. When the inefficacy of that was noted an imaginary problem on the other poster's end is asserted. Wouldn't it be much easier to say, "Yeo, my bad," and be honest, forthcoming, and thereby commended? That is the way into liberty and cogent discourse that actually evidences some competent authenticity. Christ is impeccable. The existence of sin is immaterial to his impeccability and care should be taken by all so as not to predicate our Christology on something temporal. I have a bias that grace is not yet causing me to relax with. I bristle in the presence of prissy people. Tell me.. Tell us all. Was Christ tempted ever? |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 29, 2022 12:05:33 GMT -8
If Jesus could not be tempted? He could not offer solutions for you when you are tempted.
Jesus was not dumb when it comes to understanding temptation. He needed to suffer through each temptation he faced as he sought the perfect solution in truth to nullify the power of each temptation.
That's all backwards. Of course Jesus can offer solutions for us when we are tempted even if he could not be tempted. James 1 makes it very clear God is not tempted, and yet He clearly offered a solution for when we are tempted. It is because Jesus could not be tempted that he is able to offer solutions. No one has even remotely insinuated Jesus is dumb. That's just a blatant red herring evidenced a failed understanding of scripture, the conversation being had, and the sound doctrine upon which we should all be standing. Jesus suffered because he lived among the sinful and was exposed to all the sins of humanity. The Righteous One living among the depraved. None of us knows what that was like. You have said he needed to suffer through each temptation he faced as he sought the perfect solution. This implies he didn't already possess the solution, lacked the knowledge necessary to solve the problem of sin, and had to go find it even though that solution is his very being, not knowledge or action. Not only are those some of the undeniable implications of claims, but I'd like you to show me where the Bible shows us Jesus suffering through the temptation to steal from someone. Where does scripture show Jesus suffering through the temptation wanting to murder someone. Or how about showing me where scripture reports him wanting to sodomize little boys, carve them up, cook them, and the eat them. Don't have Jesus Lite. Have the guy who looked all of human depravity square in the face unassailed because he is impeccable. James says we are tempted by our own lusts that entice us and drag us away to sin. Show me single example of scripture reporting Jesus having any enticement by which he might be dragged away to sin. When you don't find such an example embrace the silence and accept there were none. God can not be tempted by evil.... Yes, of course. You seem to have a void in your thinking in regards to the dual natures of Jesus Christ. He was fully man. And, fully God.... in union. Adam was without sin as he came from the hands of God. But, he was temptable. Adam in that pre-fallen state was also capable of not sinning. But, when we are born with a fallen nature? We are born sinners. We will sin by nature. In contrast to us? Jesus was born like the first Adam was created before his fall. Without a fallen nature. Jesus' humanity was not like our fallen humanity. You keep suffering from having a blur in your logic concerning this factor, which I am afraid makes you not able to reasoned with. To say Jesus was able to be tempted? Is to not to say he would sin. Jesus without a sin nature was fully able not to sin. Just as Adam before his fall was fully able not to sin. Jesus came to earth to reverse for us what Adam jumped into. Its why we need to be born again. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 29, 2022 12:17:35 GMT -8
James says we are tempted by our own lusts that entice us and drag us away to sin. Show me single example of scripture reporting Jesus having any enticement by which he might be dragged away to sin. When you don't find such an example embrace the silence and accept there were none. Jesus had no fallen nature. He had no inherent lusts. Like I said. You are blurring the distinctions between a sinless humanity and a fallen humanity. You are unable to picture it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 12:26:41 GMT -8
Attributional bias. You created the problem. When it was engaged non sequitur was posted. When the inefficacy of that was noted an imaginary problem on the other poster's end is asserted. Wouldn't it be much easier to say, "Yeo, my bad," and be honest, forthcoming, and thereby commended? That is the way into liberty and cogent discourse that actually evidences some competent authenticity. Christ is impeccable. The existence of sin is immaterial to his impeccability and care should be taken by all so as not to predicate our Christology on something temporal. I have a bias that grace is not yet causing me to relax with. I bristle in the presence of prissy people. Then do not be prissy. Don't imagine others to be either. Life is soooomuch easier that way. Tell me.. Tell us all. Was Christ tempted ever? No. Christ was never tempted in the sense he ever had any untoward desire or lust that might entice him or drag him away. He was exposed to all varieties of temptation or bait but there was nothing in him by which he might act as the first Adam had. As R. C. Sproul once put it, in order for a person to sin s/he must have a desire to do so. Jesus had no such desire. He was impeccable. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 12:56:11 GMT -8
That's all backwards. Of course Jesus can offer solutions for us when we are tempted even if he could not be tempted. James 1 makes it very clear God is not tempted, and yet He clearly offered a solution for when we are tempted. It is because Jesus could not be tempted that he is able to offer solutions. No one has even remotely insinuated Jesus is dumb. That's just a blatant red herring evidenced a failed understanding of scripture, the conversation being had, and the sound doctrine upon which we should all be standing. Jesus suffered because he lived among the sinful and was exposed to all the sins of humanity. The Righteous One living among the depraved. None of us knows what that was like. You have said he needed to suffer through each temptation he faced as he sought the perfect solution. This implies he didn't already possess the solution, lacked the knowledge necessary to solve the problem of sin, and had to go find it even though that solution is his very being, not knowledge or action. Not only are those some of the undeniable implications of claims, but I'd like you to show me where the Bible shows us Jesus suffering through the temptation to steal from someone. Where does scripture show Jesus suffering through the temptation wanting to murder someone. Or how about showing me where scripture reports him wanting to sodomize little boys, carve them up, cook them, and the eat them. Don't have Jesus Lite. Have the guy who looked all of human depravity square in the face unassailed because he is impeccable. James says we are tempted by our own lusts that entice us and drag us away to sin. Show me single example of scripture reporting Jesus having any enticement by which he might be dragged away to sin. When you don't find such an example embrace the silence and accept there were none. God can not be tempted by evil.... Yes, of course. You seem to have a void in your thinking in regards to the dual natures of Jesus Christ. He was fully man. And, fully God.... in union. Adam was without sin as he came from the hands of God. But, he was temptable. Adam in that pre-fallen state was also capable of not sinning. But, when we are born with a fallen nature? We are born sinners. We will sin by nature. In contrast to us? Jesus was born like the first Adam was created before his fall. Without a fallen nature. Jesus' humanity was not like our fallen humanity. You keep suffering from having a blur in your logic concerning this factor, which I am afraid makes you not able to reasoned with. To say Jesus was able to be tempted? Is to not to say he would sin. Jesus without a sin nature was fully able not to sin. Just as Adam before his fall was fully able not to sin. Jesus came to earth to reverse for us what Adam jumped into. Its why we need to be born again. Are you able to converse with others without making personal attacks? I have no void in my thinking. Yes, Jesus had two natures, but his human nature was not that of already-sinful humanity. He was, as you say, "without a fallen nature." I believe this has already been covered earlier in this thread. He knew no sin. His humanity was substantively different than our own because was never sinful to begin with. His humanity started with a conception by the Holy Spirit. Ours did not. He did not know sin genetically, cognitively, emotionally, volitionally, or behaviorally. No one born after Genesis 3:6 can say that. Furthermore, humans were "sown" into creation corrupt ible. We were not sown corrupt ed, but we were sown corrupt ible. We went from being corrupt ible to being corrupt ed at Genesis 3:6. As Paul puts it in Romans 5, by the disobedience of the one man, Adam, death has come to all men because all will sin. Jesus is the exception to that rule. Death hadn't come to him, he wouldn't sin, he was not corruptible. Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice before the world was created. He wasn't known as the perfect sacrifice only after he'd lived, died, and resurrected; he was known as that perfect person before he came to earth. Some of your statements are inconsistent with each other. It was reported if Jesus could not be tempted then he couldn't provide the solution for sin and that argument is asserted to say he could have been tempted but it was also asserted he was never tempted in the sense he had any untoward desires. We seem to agree he had no untoward desires by which he would be tempted but you say he needed to suffer through temptation. These statements have to be sorted out if they are going to make sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 13:07:20 GMT -8
I bristle in the presence of prissy people. You seem to have a void in your thinking. You are blurring the distinctions between a sinless humanity and a fallen humanity. You are unable to picture it. I am none of those things. You are violating the forum's rules against abusive, insulting, and derogatory language and personal attacks and I am asking you to discontinue the abuse. Please stop. I have reported these posts. Keep the posts about the posts, not the posters. Rules List: 1a. No vulgarity, profanity, name calling, or slang expression(s) that could be interpreted as a suggestion of impropriety or generally regarded as demeaning in nature. (Ephesians 5:3-5) 1b. No abusive, insulting, or derogatory language. (Colossians 3:5, 8) 1c. No attacks on another poster's religious beliefs, race, national origin, or gender. 1d. No chats that deteriorate into petty bickering, gossip, backbiting, or argumentative bantering. This includes arguing about Calvinism, Eternal Security, etc... (2 Corinthians 12:20) 2. No form of solicitation of any kind at any time. 3. No posting links to posts from other Forums. 4. Please limit your posts to 10K characters or less and try not to copy & paste large amounts of content. Keep the posts about the posts, not the posters. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 29, 2022 18:53:13 GMT -8
I have a bias that grace is not yet causing me to relax with. I bristle in the presence of prissy people. Then do not be prissy. Don't imagine others to be either. Life is soooomuch easier that way. Tell me.. Tell us all. Was Christ tempted ever? No. Christ was never tempted in the sense he ever had any untoward desire or lust that might entice him or drag him away. He was exposed to all varieties of temptation or bait but there was nothing in him by which he might act as the first Adam had. As R. C. Sproul once put it, in order for a person to sin s/he must have a desire to do so. Jesus had no such desire. He was impeccable.
How he removes that desire to remove that need is what determines if its sin or not. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 29, 2022 18:56:19 GMT -8
God can not be tempted by evil.... Yes, of course. You seem to have a void in your thinking in regards to the dual natures of Jesus Christ. He was fully man. And, fully God.... in union. Adam was without sin as he came from the hands of God. But, he was temptable. Adam in that pre-fallen state was also capable of not sinning. But, when we are born with a fallen nature? We are born sinners. We will sin by nature. In contrast to us? Jesus was born like the first Adam was created before his fall. Without a fallen nature.
Jesus' humanity was not like our fallen humanity. You keep suffering from having a blur in your logic concerning this factor, which I am afraid makes you not able to reasoned with. To say Jesus was able to be tempted? Is to not to say he would sin. Jesus without a sin nature was fully able not to sin. Just as Adam before his fall was fully able not to sin. Jesus came to earth to reverse for us what Adam jumped into. Its why we need to be born again. Are you able to converse with others without making personal attacks? I have no void in my thinking. Yes, Jesus had two natures, but his human nature was not that of already-sinful humanity. He was, as you say, "without a fallen nature." I believe this has already been covered earlier in this thread. He knew no sin. His humanity was substantively different than our own because was never sinful to begin with. His humanity started with a conception by the Holy Spirit. Ours did not. He did not know sin genetically, cognitively, emotionally, volitionally, or behaviorally. No one born after Genesis 3:6 can say that. Furthermore, humans were "sown" into creation corrupt ible. We were not sown corrupt ed, but we were sown corrupt ible. We went from being corrupt ible to being corrupt ed at Genesis 3:6. As Paul puts it in Romans 5, by the disobedience of the one man, Adam, death has come to all men because all will sin. Jesus is the exception to that rule. Death hadn't come to him, he wouldn't sin, he was not corruptible. Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice before the world was created. He wasn't known as the perfect sacrifice only after he'd lived, died, and resurrected; he was known as that perfect person before he came to earth. Some of your statements are inconsistent with each other. It was reported if Jesus could not be tempted then he couldn't provide the solution for sin and that argument is asserted to say he could have been tempted but it was also asserted he was never tempted in the sense he had any untoward desires. We seem to agree he had no untoward desires by which he would be tempted but you say he needed to suffer through temptation. These statements have to be sorted out if they are going to make sense.
You forget? Jesus also took on 'an unpleasant approach' in the face of legalism. He did not sin in doing so.
And, it could be seen as an attack on a person's problem in facing truth that they desire to suppress with rationalizations and not being able to grasp the truth. |
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Post by civic on Aug 30, 2022 6:20:31 GMT -8
genez if you are on the side of the peccability of Christ can you summarize your reasons for me. Thanks !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2022 6:21:06 GMT -8
No. Christ was never tempted in the sense he ever had any untoward desire or lust that might entice him or drag him away. He was exposed to all varieties of temptation or bait but there was nothing in him by which he might act as the first Adam had. As R. C. Sproul once put it, in order for a person to sin s/he must have a desire to do so. Jesus had no such desire. He was impeccable.
In order for a person to sin he must first have a need..... And, a desire to remove that need.Got scripture for that? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2022 7:55:21 GMT -8
No. Christ was never tempted in the sense he ever had any untoward desire or lust that might entice him or drag him away. He was exposed to all varieties of temptation or bait but there was nothing in him by which he might act as the first Adam had. As R. C. Sproul once put it, in order for a person to sin s/he must have a desire to do so. Jesus had no such desire. He was impeccable.
What need does scripture identify in Eve? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2022 8:04:36 GMT -8
No. Christ was never tempted in the sense he ever had any untoward desire or lust that might entice him or drag him away. He was exposed to all varieties of temptation or bait but there was nothing in him by which he might act as the first Adam had. As R. C. Sproul once put it, in order for a person to sin s/he must have a desire to do so. Jesus had no such desire. He was impeccable.
How he removes that desire to remove that need is what determines if its sin or not. What need does scripture report Jesus had? Assuming a scripture can be provided proving Jesus had a need... how is it Jesus would have a desire to remove that need with disobedience, unrighteousness, or any lack of faith, and where might I find the scripture specifically identifying that desire? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2022 8:34:35 GMT -8
No. Christ was never tempted in the sense he ever had any untoward desire or lust that might entice him or drag him away. He was exposed to all varieties of temptation or bait but there was nothing in him by which he might act as the first Adam had. As R. C. Sproul once put it, in order for a person to sin s/he must have a desire to do so. Jesus had no such desire. He was impeccable.
How he removes that desire to remove that need is what determines if its sin or not. Hmmm... let's see.... First there is a need. Then there is a desire.... ...and that desire is specifically a desire to remove that need. Needs can be removed. It is neither the need nor the desire that determines if "it" is sin. It is HOW the desire is removed in order to remove the need that determines whether "it" is sin. Desires can be removed. If this is applied to the pre-disobedient Eve (or the never-sinless Jesus) then this means Eve had a need, and a need she desired to remove. Since this occurred in the early days of creation this need could exist only because God made that need or she developed that need in the good and sinless world God made. It could not exist as a consequence of anything not-good because there was nothing not-good in the world God made. He specifically and explicitly stated everything He'd made was " very good" (Gen. 1:31), and it was only by the disobedience of one man (not Eve) that sin entered the world (even though she was the first to sin). So whatever need existed in Eve must have been a good need. According to this post claiming necessary needs are removed by desires there was in Eve a desire to remove this good need. Wouldn't any desire to remove a good need be in and of itself not-good? In other words, isn't any desire to remove a good need necessarily a bad desire? If so, then we necessarily see something bad is assumed to exist in the good world despite God explicitly stating everything was good. This implicit assumption of a bad desire therefore directly contradicts scripture. Then there is the matter of having a bad desire to remove a good need but that bad desire not being sinful until acted upon and even then it depends on how that bad desire is acted out because it's the HOW that determines whether or not the bad desire to remove a good need is sinful or not. I hope the problem with this latter portion is obvious because the Bible tells us thoughts and desires can be sinful whether acted out or not. When God looked down on humanity in Genesis 6 He stated all human thoughts were evil (Gen. 6:5). Aside from the likely hyperbole in that verse this is a clear report thoughts can be evil from God Himself. Similarly, when speaking about the desire for another man's wife Jesus clearly asserted the desire itself was sinful and so sinful that it was equivalent to committing the act of adultery, whether or not the desiring individual ever acted up that desire or not. I will concede both of these examples occur in the post-disobedient world in which sin had already entered but that is the world in which the sinless incarnate Jesus was living.He was living in a world where thoughts and desires could be sinful - whether acted upon or not. Therefore, it is not just " How he removes that desire to remove that need" that determines whether or not "it" is sin. Given the evidence of scripture, we can see there are several scriptural and logical flaws in this " harmaritology" and more study is warranted. . |
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genez
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Post by genez on Aug 30, 2022 9:03:04 GMT -8
genez if you are on the side of the peccability of Christ can you summarize your reasons for me. Thanks !
Jesus was born as Adam was created. Sinless. Adam fell. Jesus proved that Adam did not have to fall.
The difference between Jesus and Adam? By age twelve Jesus knew the Word so well that even the scribes were amazed by his thinking.
What kept Jesus invincible was his mind being filled with Bible doctrine needed for every occasion.
Jesus as a man set the example for us to follow. But, with one difference. We are born with a sin nature that needs to be controlled by the Holy Spirit.
What is wrong with Jesus being able to be tempted? How else could the power of Truth be exhibited before the angels and men to show we are not doomed because of ourselves?
Our problem is that too many are weak in teaching and understanding. They want a simple quick fix. In their frustration caused by deficiency they seek ways to fight and argue as to keep their minds preoccupied and off of their deficiency in knowing Truth.
God will always raise up a few men who are capable of teaching what their current generation needs to know to become winners before God in the angelic conflict.
It sounds sinful to think Jesus could be placed in a position to be tempted. But, He was proving God's spiritual system for man to show man that they can become more than conquerors by grace and truth being accepted. Being willing to swallow pride when corrected (taking up their cross) and continuing in seeking more sound doctrinal Bible teaching (following Him).
They key is? Where is the good teacher? God would not be God is He did not provide.
James 3:1 - Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Only a few should be teaching. Yet? We find many teachers today. Jesus warned that the road to destruction is 'broad and wide.'
In the end... the arrogant believer will always find teachings that comfort his particular area of pride.
The humble will find teachings that they needed, and find themselves needing to suffer for the sake of the Truth.. until the blessings began to pour.
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