JDS
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Post by JDS on Oct 26, 2022 8:01:45 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach?
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Post by PeanutGallery on Oct 27, 2022 4:19:34 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? I suppose that would include Satan:
3.3_____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
5.4_____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his
providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of
angels and men;
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JDS
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Post by JDS on Oct 27, 2022 4:57:45 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? I suppose that would include Satan:
3.3_____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
5.4_____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his
providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of
angels and men;
Hi there, PG. I did not think anyone would respond so I did a search of the sermons by John McAuthur, who seems to be a reputable spokesman for Calvinism, to see what he said. He said (The Fall of Satan - Feb 27, 2000) that this entity was created perfect and made a choice to sin because of the prideful assessment of his own beauty. So, I think he has answered the question. His fall came from self-will and not from a predetermined action. (Note: I did not read the whole sermon so he could have modified his statements later in his sermon). Thanks. |
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Post by Obadiah on Oct 27, 2022 6:51:30 GMT -8
JDSAs to the OP and the question asked about Satan "if all his actions have been predetermined by God". Well we do know he had some sort of a free will because he desired to lift himself above the Most High. And we know that he is the father of lies. That would indicate his Inherit nature. Then we know that he comes only to rob kill and destroy. So, he has an agenda that is quite the opposite of Gods. I don't know if Satan always needs God's permission to do his thing, But the Bible tells us in certain instances he does. Job 1. shows that Satan was not able to afflict Job without God’s permission. And Luke 22:31–32. Jesus says, “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. In Job 38:11 God says that He limits the waves of the sea: “This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt.” In the same way, it seems that there are boundaries and rules that Satan must abide by. He can go so far but no farther. As the devil “prowls around like a roaring lion” (1 Peter 5:8), must he stop and ask God’s permission for every step? Or does he only need to ask special permission when he runs into an obstacle to his hatred? There is no real biblical proof either way. Got? Looks like it could be fun to research this topic. Not a lot at Monergism.com under "Doctrine of Satan". But this one was interesting: Satan Corrupts the Mind with Doctrinal Error BY WILLIAM GURNALL Now under "Satan" there is a ton of stuff. This one was interesting/ Demons: Servants of Satan by John Blanchard
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JDS
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Post by JDS on Oct 28, 2022 4:36:48 GMT -8
JDS As to the OP and the question asked about Satan "if all his actions have been predetermined by God". Well we do know he had some sort of a free will because he desired to lift himself above the Most High. And we know that he is the father of lies. That would indicate his Inherit nature. Then we know that he comes only to rob kill and destroy. So, he has an agenda that is quite the opposite of Gods. I don't know if Satan always needs God's permission to do his thing, But the Bible tells us in certain instances he does. Job 1. shows that Satan was not able to afflict Job without God’s permission. And Luke 22:31–32. Jesus says, “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. In Job 38:11 God says that He limits the waves of the sea: “This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt.” In the same way, it seems that there are boundaries and rules that Satan must abide by. He can go so far but no farther. As the devil “prowls around like a roaring lion” (1 Peter 5:8), must he stop and ask God’s permission for every step? Or does he only need to ask special permission when he runs into an obstacle to his hatred? There is no real biblical proof either way. Got? Looks like it could be fun to research this topic. Not a lot at Monergism.com under "Doctrine of Satan". But this one was interesting: Satan Corrupts the Mind with Doctrinal Error BY WILLIAM GURNALL Now under "Satan" there is a ton of stuff. This one was interesting/ Demons: Servants of Satan by John Blanchard Thanks, Obadiah, I looked at several of your links and read the article by John Blanchard. He seems to agree with McArthur that angels were created with free will and they were governed by them. Here is a quote from "Demons: Servants of Satan" : What is their origin? God created all reality outside of Himself, from time to titanium — from space to stem cells; there is no wriggle room in the statement: “All things were made through him and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). Yet as God cannot be directly involved in the creation of evil, reason agrees with Scripture that while all angels were created holy some fell from their original state. The first to rebel was Satan, who was promptly thrown out of heaven along with myriads of angels who followed his lead. The Bible says they “did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling” (Jude 6) in contrast to “the elect angels” (1 Tim. 5:21) who were given grace to remain sinless. We should note that in contrast to humanity, which fell in its representative head (Adam), each apostate angel fell by his own personal choice. It seems as if the doctrine of "determinism" is restricted to the human realm. . |
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Post by PeanutGallery on Oct 29, 2022 6:19:00 GMT -8
It seems as if the doctrine of "determinism" is restricted to the human realm.Could not both Blanchard and MacArthur have in mind compatibility, thus allowing Satan to freely choose the only option available? |
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Post by PeanutGallery on Oct 29, 2022 7:17:03 GMT -8
It seems as if the doctrine of "determinism" is restricted to the human realm. Could not both Blanchard and MacArthur have in mind compatibility, thus allowing Satan to freely choose the only option available? |
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JDS
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Post by JDS on Oct 29, 2022 16:25:15 GMT -8
Could not both Blanchard and MacArthur have in mind compatibility, thus allowing Satan to freely choose the only option available? I am not understanding compatibility if the only option is to fall. What is free about that? |
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Post by makesends on Oct 30, 2022 1:29:53 GMT -8
I suppose that would include Satan:
3.3_____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
5.4_____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his
providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of
angels and men;
Hi there, PG. I did not think anyone would respond so I did a search of the sermons by John McAuthur, who seems to be a reputable spokesman for Calvinism, to see what he said. He said (The Fall of Satan - Feb 27, 2000) that this entity was created perfect and made a choice to sin because of the prideful assessment of his own beauty. So, I think he has answered the question. His fall came from self-will and not from a predetermined action. (Note: I did not read the whole sermon so he could have modified his statements later in his sermon). Thanks. Self-will and predetermination are not mutually exclusive. |
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Post by PeanutGallery on Oct 30, 2022 3:46:10 GMT -8
Self-will and predetermination are not mutually exclusive. I think that is how a Calvinist would define compatibilism; it allows one's self-will to choose that which has been meticulously determined by God.
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JDS
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Post by JDS on Oct 30, 2022 3:48:08 GMT -8
Hi there, PG. I did not think anyone would respond so I did a search of the sermons by John McAuthur, who seems to be a reputable spokesman for Calvinism, to see what he said. He said (The Fall of Satan - Feb 27, 2000) that this entity was created perfect and made a choice to sin because of the prideful assessment of his own beauty. So, I think he has answered the question. His fall came from self-will and not from a predetermined action. (Note: I did not read the whole sermon so he could have modified his statements later in his sermon). Thanks. Self-will and predetermination are not mutually exclusive. If Satan's fall, or Adam's for that matter, came down to a personal choice where there were only two options, the choice of which would fundamentally determine eternity in that realm, going forward, they are certainly mutually exclusive. |
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Post by makesends on Oct 30, 2022 19:38:33 GMT -8
Self-will and predetermination are not mutually exclusive. If Satan's fall, or Adam's for that matter, came down to a personal choice where there were only two options, the choice of which would fundamentally determine eternity in that realm, going forward, they are certainly mutually exclusive. How so? Do you assume that it could have gone either way? Do you have anything to back that notion up, or have you always simply assumed it? Do we not always choose according to our inclinations, even if only for that instant of decision? Can you show how anything, other than God himself, is not caused? |
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JDS
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Post by JDS on Oct 31, 2022 4:34:00 GMT -8
If Satan's fall, or Adam's for that matter, came down to a personal choice where there were only two options, the choice of which would fundamentally determine eternity in that realm, going forward, they are certainly mutually exclusive. How so? Do you assume that it could have gone either way? Do you have anything to back that notion up, or have you always simply assumed it? Do we not always choose according to our inclinations, even if only for that instant of decision? Can you show how anything, other than God himself, is not caused? We make choices because of more than one option without which there is no choice to be made. We make choices because we are an entity and we have intelligence, reason, and will. Our choices are based on this fact. Now, if we are talking about Fido, the rules are different and match your criteria much better. |
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Post by makesends on Oct 31, 2022 17:23:17 GMT -8
How so? Do you assume that it could have gone either way? Do you have anything to back that notion up, or have you always simply assumed it? Do we not always choose according to our inclinations, even if only for that instant of decision? Can you show how anything, other than God himself, is not caused? We make choices because of more than one option without which there is no choice to be made. We make choices because we are an entity and we have intelligence, reason, and will. Our choices are based on this fact. Now, if we are talking about Fido, the rules are different and match your criteria much better. Your man-glorifying 'facts' notwithstanding, we are more like Fido than you seem to realize. God is able to raise up bones, dust, rocks, to praise him. What makes us any better? Us— or him? You may have noticed that your answer was blanket —not specific. There's a reason for that. But to respond (in kind) to where you went with it: The options are laid out before us, and we assume both (or more) are possible. As history shows, only one option can ever happen, so how can we assume both (or more) are possible? Scream, "that's absurd!" all you want, but you can't defeat the argument. But it's far from the only argument. I mention it to show that we assume an awful lot. We even assume that the command necessarily implies the ability to obey; but it only implies we have choice. And even when the unregenerate thinks he chooses God over sin, he does not know what sin is, nor even what God is. He has chosen relief, or he has chosen something else that appeals to him for the moment. We are more than capable of fooling ourselves, as Hebrews 6 seems to suggest. How can any of us truly submit to God, apart from the Spirit of God giving that to us, doing "the real thing" in us? You would have to have a lot more integrity, intelligence and knowledge, wisdom and steadfastness, than I do. "Apart from me, you can do nothing." is not hyperbole. |
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Post by makesends on Oct 31, 2022 17:33:22 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach. Of course there is a real Devil named Satan. And he is the Author of Sin. Yes, of course everything about Satan is predestined by God, just as is everything else, subsequent to God himself. Even apart from Calvinism or Reformed Theology, simple logic says that if God is First Cause (and, btw, I will accept no other god), then he created everything, including very reality and reason. My best thoughts tell me that the things we consider "just the way it is", or "brute fact", are not only made by God, but made of his nature. One thing is for sure. There can be no other first cause. Therefore, there is no such thing as Chance or true Random, or any other principle uncontrolled by God or that did not come from him in some way, nor can there be anything to which he is subject, but to himself. Therefore, there is no such thing as true spontaneity, apart from God. Yes, Satan was predestined. So was Adam's fall, and Christ's sacrifice. Even stubbing my toe this morning. |
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