e v e
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Post by e v e on Nov 27, 2022 13:04:33 GMT -8
phrase things in God’s context.
drop the greek.
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Nov 27, 2022 13:04:49 GMT -8
dup
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2022 8:59:16 GMT -8
first cause is a greek concept. pagan greek. No, it is not That view is a modern view. Pagan modern. The cause and effect relationship has is understood in the opening statement of the Bible: In the beginning God created..., and other statements found throughout the Bible, such as, " Through Him all things were made..." Furthermore, as far back as we can find, in every culture every discovered, the concept of cause and effect and "first cause" has been understood. This is especially true of all the theistic mythologies. It is not something unique to the Greeks, pagan or otherwise. The earliest Greek (proto-)civilization is generally understood to be the Mycenaeans on Crete, circa 1600 BC. The Egyptian pyramids were already 500 years old. Melchizedek and Salem preceded Greece by 800 years. The Majiayao and Xiajiadian cultures preceded Greece by more than a millennium and gave rise to the Shang dynasty while the Greeks were just getting started. On the other side of the world the Olmecs and the pre-classic Mayans were forming civilizations that didn't even know the Greeks existed. Furthermore, just because the Greeks philosophized about cause and effect, and the concept of "first cause" does NOT mean people living in the 21st century are using Greek philosophy. And to the readers other than e v e: e v e won't discuss her views. She doesn't like "debate," and conflates the two, shunning all participation examining her views (even though she is an educated professional who has reportedly studied relevant content. She likes to drop in on threads, comment from her singular point of view and be done with it. Her singular point of view is couched in what she calls the "Adamic" soul, and she mixes in a little Sophia-ism (Gnosticism) with a firm belief everything has been corrupted by Greek philosophy, including everything built on Augustine and Aquinas (Plato and Aristotle). First cause is NOT Greek, and no one here was relying on the Greek.... except, ironically, e v e. It is a case of everything looking like a nail if you're a hammer. |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Nov 28, 2022 12:35:23 GMT -8
first cause is a greek concept. pagan greek. No, it is not That view is a modern view. Pagan modern. The cause and effect relationship has is understood in the opening statement of the Bible: In the beginning God created..., and other statements found throughout the Bible, such as, " Through Him all things were made..." Furthermore, as far back as we can find, in every culture every discovered, the concept of cause and effect and "first cause" has been understood. This is especially true of all the theistic mythologies. It is not something unique to the Greeks, pagan or otherwise. The earliest Greek (proto-)civilization is generally understood to be the Mycenaeans on Crete, circa 1600 BC. The Egyptian pyramids were already 500 years old. Melchizedek and Salem preceded Greece by 800 years. The Majiayao and Xiajiadian cultures preceded Greece by more than a millennium and gave rise to the Shang dynasty while the Greeks were just getting started. On the other side of the world the Olmecs and the pre-classic Mayans were forming civilizations that didn't even know the Greeks existed. Furthermore, just because the Greeks philosophized about cause and effect, and the concept of "first cause" does NOT mean people living in the 21st century are using Greek philosophy. And to the readers other than e v e: e v e won't discuss her views. She doesn't like "debate," and conflates the two, shunning all participation examining her views (even though she is an educated professional who has reportedly studied relevant content. She likes to drop in on threads, comment from her singular point of view and be done with it. Her singular point of view is couched in what she calls the "Adamic" soul, and she mixes in a little Sophia-ism (Gnosticism) with a firm belief everything has been corrupted by Greek philosophy, including everything built on Augustine and Aquinas (Plato and Aristotle). First cause is NOT Greek, and no one here was relying on the Greek.... except, ironically, e v e. It is a case of everything looking like a nail if you're a hammer. since you turned this into a post about me, attacking me when I have said nothing against you, i can respond and defend myself by saying that your caricature of me is not true and is a distortion and fabrication. |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Nov 28, 2022 12:36:08 GMT -8
why do you feel it necessary to attack another soul?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2022 15:20:14 GMT -8
No, it is not That view is a modern view. Pagan modern. The cause and effect relationship has is understood in the opening statement of the Bible: In the beginning God created..., and other statements found throughout the Bible, such as, " Through Him all things were made..." Furthermore, as far back as we can find, in every culture every discovered, the concept of cause and effect and "first cause" has been understood. This is especially true of all the theistic mythologies. It is not something unique to the Greeks, pagan or otherwise. The earliest Greek (proto-)civilization is generally understood to be the Mycenaeans on Crete, circa 1600 BC. The Egyptian pyramids were already 500 years old. Melchizedek and Salem preceded Greece by 800 years. The Majiayao and Xiajiadian cultures preceded Greece by more than a millennium and gave rise to the Shang dynasty while the Greeks were just getting started. On the other side of the world the Olmecs and the pre-classic Mayans were forming civilizations that didn't even know the Greeks existed. Furthermore, just because the Greeks philosophized about cause and effect, and the concept of "first cause" does NOT mean people living in the 21st century are using Greek philosophy. And to the readers other than e v e: e v e won't discuss her views. She doesn't like "debate," and conflates the two, shunning all participation examining her views (even though she is an educated professional who has reportedly studied relevant content. She likes to drop in on threads, comment from her singular point of view and be done with it. Her singular point of view is couched in what she calls the "Adamic" soul, and she mixes in a little Sophia-ism (Gnosticism) with a firm belief everything has been corrupted by Greek philosophy, including everything built on Augustine and Aquinas (Plato and Aristotle). First cause is NOT Greek, and no one here was relying on the Greek.... except, ironically, e v e. It is a case of everything looking like a nail if you're a hammer. since you turned this into a post about me, attacking me when I have said nothing against you, i can respond and defend myself by saying that your caricature of me is not true and is a distortion and fabrication. Nice try, e v e. I did not turn this into a post about you. What I posted about you are things you have repeatedly told me and many others in numerous threads. They are facts, not attacks. Ironically, if you wanted the posts to be about the premise of " first cause" being pagan Greek, then it was completely within your ability to post about that and keep it about Calvinism and the doctrine of satan. But that is clearly not what you chose to do. First you made the thread about "first cause," and then about the Greeks, and now you made the posts about you. and I was proved correct: you don't discuss your own content. All you had to do to prove me wrong was stay on topic!!! Two centuries ago it was called the " Birmingham Screwdriver," because one tool was used for everything, except perhaps that for which it was intended. In modern vernacular, it's called the " Law of the Instrument." If the only tool you have is a hammer, then the temptation is to treat everything as if it's a nail. An over-reliance on a given perspective invariably creates biases in one's thinking, commentary becomes simple and single-themed regardless of what's encountered. In your case everything is about the post-fall condition of humanity, and you disdain for anything but a simple and direct relationship with God. So folks end up reading content like " first cause is a greek concept. pagan greek." No, not everything is pagan Greek, even if the Greeks did think about such things a long time ago. We are not Greek. Now.... if you'd like to start over then I am completely amenable and prepared to do so. "First cause" is NOT pagan Greek. Humans have understood cause and effect long before the Greeks philosophized about it, they did so around the world (not just in Greece), and no one here in this forum in the 21st century is beholding to Greek philosophy. The earlier post argues false cause and genetic fallacies. If you think otherwise, then do please muster all your resources and make the case for your post. Otherwise, acknowledge it was an overgeneralization and the facts of history and logic prove "first cause" is not a pagan Greek concept the Christians here in BAM are today asserting. Prove me wrong.  |
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Post by makesends on Nov 29, 2022 19:20:46 GMT -8
first cause is a greek concept. pagan greek. It is a logical concept. Do you have a logical reason not to trust it? |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Nov 29, 2022 20:40:12 GMT -8
first cause is a greek concept. pagan greek. It is a logical concept. Do you have a logical reason not to trust it? even a sociopath has a logic. logic is not the highest… God is the highest , no? God just says put no other gods before me. that would include human logic. the greeks did make reason the judge of reality and highest god. it’s a different type of religious system.. all of greek philosophy is essentially their religion and their concepts such as substance, and aristotelian logic and their prime mover are not synonymous to God’s concepts. |
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Post by makesends on Nov 30, 2022 6:49:05 GMT -8
It is a logical concept. Do you have a logical reason not to trust it? even a sociopath has a logic. logic is not the highest… God is the highest , no? God just says put no other gods before me. that would include human logic. the greeks did make reason the judge of reality and highest god. it’s a different type of religious system.. all of greek philosophy is essentially their religion and their concepts such as substance, and aristotelian logic and their prime mover are not synonymous to God’s concepts. All true. Admittedly, logic can become an idol. Of course, Scripture trumps logic! So how does that make use of logic, which we do all day, and which you even attempted to do in your post, "Greek", and "a God", and wrong to do? But where Scripture and logic seem to disagree, they do not. It is a pretty obvious and useful principle. Where they seem to contradict, then it is our use of one or the other that is mistaken. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 7:48:39 GMT -8
It is a logical concept. Do you have a logical reason not to trust it? even a sociopath has a logic. Another falsehood. Sociopaths do not have logic. That is part of what makes them sociopaths. Just because a person forms a case of predicated premises that they believe reaches a valid and veracious conclusion does not mean it is logic. Have you ever met an actual sociopath? Then you know your statement is false. If you know your statement is false then you know you're misleading other readers. Since you also know to whom your posting (a psychologist) then you also know you have (once again) said something to the one guy who can actually test your views knowing what he's talking about. Not only did I study psychology, but I also studied anthropology, sociology, and philosophy. This is one of the reasons you and I have (some) disagreement. You have told me you're informed about the anicent views and writings of cultures surrounding the Hebrews. That's excellent! However, it is my occasional observation you've preferred outside sources over inside source while claiming to seek only God (and not recognizing the paradox). On this occasion you've ventured into my professional territory and the statement, " Even a sociopath has logic," is absolutely incorrect. The dictionary definition of " sociopath" is " a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience." Does that sound like someone who has logic? You spend much of your entire forum life commendably pointing out valid dichotomies of scripture like those between pre-fall and post-fall, Sarah and Hagar, true temple andfalse temples, heavenly and earthly "land," etc. I think you over reach. I am, generally, confident we could work out the common ground and set an example for the lurkers if 1) I didn't read nonesense like " Even sociopath has logic," and 2) you'd show up for a conversation that was something more the enduring and more than snippets. Sociopaths do NOT have logic. That's something enemies of logic say. I invite the lurkers to open their Bible and first read Isaiah 1:18, then read the story of God depriving Nebuchadnezzar of his reason ( Daniel 4:24-37), and then what Paul writes about the cognitive faculties of those who suppress truth, don't honor God ( Romans 1:18-32). The Bible has several passages 1) asserting reason/logic and 2) describing examples of its absence. Once again the readers have been given a claim completely absent any scripture. The number of posts without any scripture is growing, even though I have asked for scriptural evidence. Is this logical? In other words, a person can misguidedly dispute the veracity of reason and logic with appeals to ridicule/extremes and not practice logic themselves. It's quite a paradox. Are there any here in this thread who do not thirst for God's word and God's word correctly rendered? Why then appeal to sociopaths as justification? Lastly, even though I have selected a single sentence from the post, look at the entire post and ask yourself, " What part of it has anything to do with the Calvinist doctrine of satan?" I don't find a single word about Calvinism in the post. Although some of its content could be consistent with Calvinism, it has nothing to do specifically with the doctrine of satan. In other words, this is another off-topic post that occurs after having been asked 1) for op-relevant content and 2) out brother's op not be hijacked. How logical is that? I'll attend to the rest of the post separately. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 8:07:42 GMT -8
It is a logical concept. Do you have a logical reason not to trust it? logic is not the highest… God is the highest , no? False dichotomy. God's ontology in inextricable from God's identity and existence. In other words, to try to draw a hierarchy between who and what God is, and what He does is misguided because God is One. He is perfectly integrated, unified, and holistic, and perfectly holy (separate), righteous, moral and rational in all He does. More important to this digression is the fact God is never irrational!!! God may be extra-rational, but He is never irrational. Therefore, whenever we read an otherwise earnest and well-meaning brother or sister in Christ use fallacy, we KNOW that is a work of the flesh and not the Spirit. This is just as true of me as it is of every other poster in every innerwebs forum that has ever existed. This is true of all the fallacies, whether they be red herrings, false dichotomies, straw men, false causes, appeals to authority, appeals to ridicule, appeals to extremes, etc. The fact is we have the mind of Christ! The question this begs is, " Are we using it?"  God's is the highest and God's faculties of reason are impeccable. Ours are not. This is one of the reasons God repeatedly directs us to engage one another in well-reasoned discourse. As iron shaprens iron soe one [person] sharpens another. It is good that disputes exist among us so that sound doctrine and those approved by God may be known. If everyone here is regenerate and indwelt with the Spirit of God then the matter of approval is moot. All these threads in BAM then become about working out sound doctrine (and practice). By God's design! That is absolutely true and correct for anyone who makes a "god" or an idol out of logic. However, no one here but you have done that  . Logic can be treated as an idol even in antithesis  . More accurately, logic that isn't logical isn't actually logic; it's lies or deception. And there are those who would make logic a boogey man even though God is a God of logic Who deliberately invites us to reason with him, AND provided several examples in the scriptures of HIS people reasoning with others (think of Paul on Mars Hill reasoning with the Greeks of every persuasion. The problem here is this op isn't about the Greeks. This op is about Calvinism. What do you know about Calvinism's doctrine on satan? If you know something that is actually factual and true of Calvinism's doctrine of satan then please do post it. I'd love to read it and I'm confident JDS would, too. If you don't know Calvinism's doctrine on satan then pull up a proverbial chair and learn. Ask questions. Discuss what Calvinists posts in light of well-rendered scripture. Otherwise, your posts are off-topic. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 9:23:54 GMT -8
It is a logical concept. Do you have a logical reason not to trust it? that would include human logic. If and when you find a flaw in my reasoning do please point it out. Otherwise, this dissenting commentary implying an opposition to logic is a red herring. Anytime any post from any poster (not just my posts or yours) makes.... a polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent and coherent topical case of well-rendered scripture... That content should be embraced. And not only should it be embraced, but it should also be discussed collaboratively for our mutual edification AND the benefit of others. Ephesians 4:25, 29-32 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak trut each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another... Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. Which of us does not want that? This op is about Calvinism's "doctrine" of satan. This op is NOT about the Greek's view or their influence on Christianity hundreds and thousands of years ago. The op's author is not a Calvinist and he's often openly opposed to that soteriology. He wants to know about Cal's view of satan. I, a monergist, am not sure Calvinism has a formal doctrine on satan so I posted my personal perspective AND provided a few links on the matter that were specifically from other monergist/Calvinists. For the record: I do not generally capitalize the word "satan," because that created creature has been stripped of his glory. He does not deserve to have his title capitalized. He's a wretched, sin-enslaved, decrepit version of the way he was once made, and I explained how and why that is the case in an earlier post HERE and HERE. Give 'em a read and tell me what you think. |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Nov 30, 2022 11:21:51 GMT -8
even a sociopath has a logic. logic is not the highest… God is the highest , no? God just says put no other gods before me. that would include human logic. the greeks did make reason the judge of reality and highest god. it’s a different type of religious system.. all of greek philosophy is essentially their religion and their concepts such as substance, and aristotelian logic and their prime mover are not synonymous to God’s concepts. All true. Admittedly, logic can become an idol. Of course, Scripture trumps logic! So how does that make use of logic, which we do all day, and which you even attempted to do in your post, "Greek", and "a God", and wrong to do? But where Scripture and logic seem to disagree, they do not. It is a pretty obvious and useful principle. Where they seem to contradict, then it is our use of one or the other that is mistaken. I think that I said it somewhere, about putting God in the front seat.. and using that mind and logic, but as servant, not as our ruler...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 18:17:41 GMT -8
All true. Admittedly, logic can become an idol. Of course, Scripture trumps logic! So how does that make use of logic, which we do all day, and which you even attempted to do in your post, "Greek", and "a God", and wrong to do? But where Scripture and logic seem to disagree, they do not. It is a pretty obvious and useful principle. Where they seem to contradict, then it is our use of one or the other that is mistaken. I think that I said it somewhere, about putting God in the front seat.. and using that mind and logic, but as servant, not as our ruler...
Great. Who here as used logic as our ruler? How come we're not reading something like, " Plato influenced Augustine and Augustine influenced Calvin. Therefore, inherent within Calvinism is a pagan Greek influence."? |
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alive
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Post by alive on Dec 4, 2022 8:14:16 GMT -8
Calvinist believe there is a purpose for satan. This is logical…..why?
John in the opening of his gospel apparently used the greek word logos to describe Christ. That word associated with Christ conveys Him to be the rational, logical reason for all things.
Yes?
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. Logic can be treated as an idol even in antithesis 
. More accurately, logic that isn't logical isn't actually logic; it's lies or deception.