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Post by makesends on Oct 31, 2022 17:46:48 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? You might find it relevant that Calvinism doesn't pretend to be a comprehensive theology. It does claim several details, but mostly as proof against falsehood. It assumes many things that are not contested by most of Christianity. The Doctrine of Satan is one of those, though Calvinism will give some rich viewpoints concerning the question, it doesn't spend a lot of time on the basics of the question. At least, not that I have seen. |
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JDS
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Post by JDS on Oct 31, 2022 18:10:42 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach. Of course there is a real Devil named Satan. And he is the Author of Sin. Yes, of course everything about Satan is predestined by God, just as is everything else, subsequent to God himself. Even apart from Calvinism or Reformed Theology, simple logic says that if God is First Cause (and, btw, I will accept no other god), then he created everything, including very reality and reason. My best thoughts tell me that the things we consider "just the way it is", or "brute fact", are not only made by God, but made of his nature. One thing is for sure. There can be no other first cause. Therefore, there is no such thing as Chance or true Random, or any other principle uncontrolled by God or that did not come from him in some way, nor can there be anything to which he is subject, but to himself. Therefore, there is no such thing as true spontaneity, apart from God. Yes, Satan was predestined. So was Adam's fall, and Christ's sacrifice. Even stubbing my toe this morning. What is really sad is for people on forums like this to say, after reading tripe like this, that you are reasonable and well.
I am going to take the advice of Proverbs 26:4 on this one. It is farther out than I have ever been.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 9:38:32 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach?  ?? You're not sure? If you're not sure, then why couch the matter in Calvinism at all? If you'd like to find out, then why not read Calvin's writings? The word "Satan" occurs more than 240 times in Calvin's "Institutes..." That might be a good place to start if an understanding of satan from a Calvinistic point of view is genuinely desired. Here is this Calvinist's perspective of the creature known in the Bible as "satan," or the "accuser" or "adversary." Satan is a created creature, and as a creature he is not in any way infinite. If the tradition of satan as a former angel who rebelled against God is true then not only is the creature not in any way infinite but he is just as dead and enslaved by his own sin as any other creature who disobeys God! The wages of sin are death. According to Jude, "... angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day," which means not only is satan enslaved to deadly sin, but he's also been held in bonds of eternal darkness since his rebellion AND his fate has all already been decided. This, in turn, gives context to all else that scripture says about the adversary. For example, his roaming the earth looking for those he may devour occurs inescapably within the context of Jude's statement of bondage. He roams, but he does not roam freely. I will suggest his eating dead people has whole-scripture context. Satan is a carrion eater, an unclean creature. His roaming the earth devouring sinners (people dead in sin) is figurative of his uncleanness and bondage, NOT any power humans might wrongly imagine he possesses. The only power satan possesses is that which his Creator gives him and then only for the purpose of the Creator for whatever season the Creator deems suitable. Satan is defeated. If the tradition is correct then he was defeated at the time of his rebellion, cast to earth where has been held in eternal bonds of darkness with an already decided fate AND his works were again defeated at Calvary because one of the reasons Christ came was to undo the works of the "devil" (1 Jn. 3:8). Although the New Testament alludes to satan as the ruler of this world or the ruler of the air, the larger context is that of Christ as King of all kings, Lord of all lords, and the one to whom ALL power and authority has been given, and whose rule to which all other rules are subject. Furthermore, the saints are bestowed with the armor of God by which all the schemes of the devil are extinguished. James directs us to simply resist the devil and he will flee! and Jesus plainly stated the gates of hell will not prevail over the church. Gates are defensive measures, not that of offense. All of this begs the question, " What kind of enemy do we have if he's already defeated, held in bondage, has all his machinations defeated by those wearing God's armor, flees when resisted, and has no power but that which God gives him for the working of good in our lives according to his Creator's purpose? You and I are royal priests, and adopted sons of The Most High God. Satan is none of that. |
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Post by makesends on Nov 3, 2022 14:45:23 GMT -8
Of course there is a real Devil named Satan. And he is the Author of Sin. Yes, of course everything about Satan is predestined by God, just as is everything else, subsequent to God himself. Even apart from Calvinism or Reformed Theology, simple logic says that if God is First Cause (and, btw, I will accept no other god), then he created everything, including very reality and reason. My best thoughts tell me that the things we consider "just the way it is", or "brute fact", are not only made by God, but made of his nature. One thing is for sure. There can be no other first cause. Therefore, there is no such thing as Chance or true Random, or any other principle uncontrolled by God or that did not come from him in some way, nor can there be anything to which he is subject, but to himself. Therefore, there is no such thing as true spontaneity, apart from God. Yes, Satan was predestined. So was Adam's fall, and Christ's sacrifice. Even stubbing my toe this morning. What is really sad is for people on forums like this to say, after reading tripe like this, that you are reasonable and well.
I am going to take the advice of Proverbs 26:4 on this one. It is farther out than I have ever been.
Your kind words notwithstanding, not only can you not disprove me logically —you can't disprove me by scripture. And, by the way, Ad Hom doesn't become you. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2022 5:28:07 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? Try HERE, HERE, and HERE. Calvinism does assert all actions of either satan or humanity are predetermined (see HERE and HERE). Calvinism believes God ordained all things from creation without being the author of sin and without doing violence to the will of the creature (angelic of human) or the contingency of secondary causes. * Note to posters: Your antivirus software may flag this link as unsafe, but it is monergism.com, a well-established website catalogue of articles on diverse topics written from the monergistic (Calvinist) point of view. It is safe.
**Addendum: The discussion on Puritan Board discussion appears to have been deleted. Link didn't work this morning when I tried it. |
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alive
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Post by alive on Nov 7, 2022 5:48:01 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? ?? You're not sure? If you're not sure, then why couch the matter in Calvinism at all? If you'd like to find out, then why not read Calvin's writings? The word "Satan" occurs more than 240 times in Calvin's "Institutes..." That might be a good place to start if an understanding of satan from a Calvinistic point of view is genuinely desired. Here is this Calvinist's perspective of the creature known in the Bible as "satan," or the "accuser" or "adversary." Satan is a created creature, and as a creature he is not in any way infinite. If the tradition of satan as a former angel who rebelled against God is true then not only is the creature not in any way infinite but he is just as dead and enslaved by his own sin as any other creature who disobeys God! The wages of sin are death. According to Jude, "... angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day," which means not only is satan enslaved to deadly sin, but he's also been held in bonds of eternal darkness since his rebellion AND his fate has all already been decided. This, in turn, gives context to all else that scripture says about the adversary. For example, his roaming the earth looking for those he may devour occurs inescapably within the context of Jude's statement of bondage. He roams, but he does not roam freely. I will suggest his eating dead people has whole-scripture context. Satan is a carrion eater, an unclean creature. His roaming the earth devouring sinners (people dead in sin) is figurative of his uncleanness and bondage, NOT any power humans might wrongly imagine he possesses. The only power satan possesses is that which his Creator gives him and then only for the purpose of the Creator for whatever season the Creator deems suitable. Satan is defeated. If the tradition is correct then he was defeated at the time of his rebellion, cast to earth where has been held in eternal bonds of darkness with an already decided fate AND his works were again defeated at Calvary because one of the reasons Christ came was to undo the works of the "devil" (1 Jn. 3:8). Although the New Testament alludes to satan as the ruler of this world or the ruler of the air, the larger context is that of Christ as King of all kings, Lord of all lords, and the one to whom ALL power and authority has been given, and whose rule to which all other rules are subject. Furthermore, the saints are bestowed with the armor of God by which all the schemes of the devil are extinguished. James directs us to simply resist the devil and he will flee! and Jesus plainly stated the gates of hell will not prevail over the church. Gates are defensive measures, not that of offense. All of this begs the question, " What kind of enemy do we have if he's already defeated, held in bondage, has all his machinations defeated by those wearing God's armor, flees when resisted, and has no power but that which God gives him for the working of good in our lives according to his Creator's purpose? You and I are royal priests, and adopted sons of The Most High God. Satan is none of that. Amen! Very well explained, brother. To the praise of God Almighty. |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 20, 2022 19:14:56 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach. Of course there is a real Devil named Satan. And he is the Author of Sin. Yes, of course everything about Satan is predestined by God, just as is everything else, subsequent to God himself. Even apart from Calvinism or Reformed Theology, simple logic says that if God is First Cause (and, btw, I will accept no other god), then he created everything, including very reality and reason. My best thoughts tell me that the things we consider "just the way it is", or "brute fact", are not only made by God, but made of his nature. One thing is for sure. There can be no other first cause. Therefore, there is no such thing as Chance or true Random, or any other principle uncontrolled by God or that did not come from him in some way, nor can there be anything to which he is subject, but to himself. Therefore, there is no such thing as true spontaneity, apart from God. Yes, Satan was predestined. So was Adam's fall, and Christ's sacrifice. Even stubbing my toe this morning. To be or not to be? |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 20, 2022 19:27:01 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? IMO, Calvinism is of Satan ..... the great accuser. They seek to tie people up into Sin and then call it glory. Even denying the Lord Jesus Christ who died so that we can be. Can I move my pinky finger Mr. Calvinist. NO ....... How about my little pinky toe? NO ...... So Jesus died for us never to be. Errrrr ..... let me check with Paul. Paul say's one can be. Mr. Calvinist did Jesus say no one can be? Such theological extrapulations get kind of silly. Religious power games. NO ONE CAN BE ...... |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 21, 2022 14:13:34 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? Try HERE, HERE, and HERE. Calvinism does assert all actions of either satan or humanity are predetermined (see HERE and HERE). Calvinism believes God ordained all things from creation without being the author of sin and without doing violence to the will of the creature (angelic of human) or the contingency of secondary causes. * Note to posters: Your antivirus software may flag this link as unsafe, but it is monergism.com, a well-established website catalogue of articles on diverse topics written from the monergistic (Calvinist) point of view. It is safe.Calvinism believes .... no one can ever be. Freewill .... dead ....... being is dead ....... IMO, it is a Paulne propagation. Just die ..... it is better then being. |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 21, 2022 15:45:54 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? The first time I posted on a Calvinist forum, I was gun ho Calvinist. (cringe) I was like the bullet guy ....... no one can be, no one can be. And a poster, non-calvinist poster. Corrected me, saying slow down ..... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2022 6:42:59 GMT -8
Try HERE, HERE, and HERE. Calvinism does assert all actions of either satan or humanity are predetermined (see HERE and HERE). Calvinism believes God ordained all things from creation without being the author of sin and without doing violence to the will of the creature (angelic of human) or the contingency of secondary causes * Note to posters: Your antivirus software may flag this link as unsafe, but it is monergism.com, a well-established website catalogue of articles on diverse topics written from the monergistic (Calvinist) point of view. It is safe.Calvinism believes .... no one can ever be. Freewill .... dead ....... being is dead ....... IMO, it is a Paulne propagation. Just die ..... it is better then being. Trolling is never pretty except in the mind of the troll. What is the title of this op? Given the title of this op, what does this post have to do with the subject or topic being discussed in this thread? Why would any reader have an interest in replying to a completely off-topic and factually incorrect rag insinuating Paul lied? Why would any reader respond to posts that are off-topically repeated elsewhere, won't be contained in threads where they were inane the first time they were posted, from a poster who was there asked and refused to explain himself? My reply to this is to tell everyone to ignore all trolling and do not feed it. This op is specifically about the Calvinist view of satan. If you have something specific to add to that conversation explicitly about the Calvinist view of satan, JDS might have an interest, but I doubt he's looking forward to trolls hijacking his thread. The op reads as sincere from one genuinely wanting to learn the Cal pov. |
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Post by civic on Nov 22, 2022 7:02:49 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? When I was a staunch calvinist I use to quote John 8:39-44 and 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 about the devil/satan/god of this world all of the time. As a non calvinist I still use them in the same way I did then. The entire book of 1 John talks allot about the children of God vs the children of the devil. That was another book I used all of the time and still do in the same manner as before. My view on how God allows evil is different but in the end the results are the same. |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 24, 2022 16:44:18 GMT -8
Over the many years that I have followed the debates between Calvinism and the Christian religion I cannot remember ever seeing this subject dealt with on any of these forums. I am not sure if Calvinism has a doctrine of a real and personal Devil named Satan who is the adversary of God and man. If the answer is "no," I would wonder why not, and if your answer is "yes," I would ask if all his actions have been predetermined by God as has all the actions in the human realm, as most adherents of Calvinism seems to teach? Calvinism is of Satan. No one can be ...... is Satan. Paul's doctrine. As, for your question. Being born again to never be is tatamount to never living. How is this world or the next, can we be by not being? Ok .... maybe by the girls, who care for us and give us love. Still not being ..... though .. and you could probably ask most girl's / women ..... they want a man to be. |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 25, 2022 13:22:08 GMT -8
Calvinism believes .... no one can ever be. Freewill .... dead ....... being is dead ....... IMO, it is a Paulne propagation. Just die ..... it is better then being. Trolling is never pretty except in the mind of the troll. What is the title of this op? Given the title of this op, what does this post have to do with the subject or topic being discussed in this thread? Why would any reader have an interest in replying to a completely off-topic and factually incorrect rag insinuating Paul lied? Why would any reader respond to posts that are off-topically repeated elsewhere, won't be contained in threads where they were inane the first time they were posted, from a poster who was there asked and refused to explain himself? My reply to this is to tell everyone to ignore all trolling and do not feed it. This op is specifically about the Calvinist view of satan. If you have something specific to add to that conversation explicitly about the Calvinist view of satan, JDS might have an interest, but I doubt he's looking forward to trolls hijacking his thread. The op reads as sincere from one genuinely wanting to learn the Cal pov. Ok ........ So Calvinism is not of Satan ..... the great accuser. Seems like they are into the no can be thingy. Die sinner ....... Seems like Satan to me. |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Nov 27, 2022 13:03:44 GMT -8
first cause is a greek concept.
pagan greek.
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?? 
