|
|
Post by Admin on Mar 12, 2023 7:06:29 GMT -8
I found this little tidbit that seemed to fit in here. Jesus Chose Judas in Order to Relate to You PersonallyMaybe you have been hurt by someone who has betrayed your trust, broken your heart, misunderstood your motive, and “lifted his heel against you” to kick you in the teeth. Jesus Christ knows exactly how you feel. He was tempted in all points like as we are (Hebrews 4:15). There’s not a single temptation or hurt you’ll ever face that Jesus didn’t feel. No matter what your pain is, no matter what your vulnerability might be, Jesus can sympathize because He’s gone through the very same trials. Jon Courson, Jon Courson’s Application Commentary That's a good one. The one I found is humongous so I asked Admin to put it on the blog. He said he'll put it up there tomorrow. I thought that was pretty cool. It's Up and running. THE REAL MYSTERY ABOUT JUDAS berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/489/thread |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Mar 12, 2023 7:14:20 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Mar 12, 2023 19:35:40 GMT -8
Even if I was not Reformed in my theology and thinking, I think I would consider that poor logic. He was chosen unto a certain use, but not unto salvation. He never was 'saved'. Are my statements true ? True, as in? You say, "He was chosen, but not a believer." Do you mean, "'chosen' as in 'elect'"? He was not one of the 'elect'. But that is the only way I see a cogent statement, from your POV. |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Mar 13, 2023 4:20:59 GMT -8
True, as in? You say, "He was chosen, but not a believer." Do you mean, "'chosen' as in 'elect'"? He was not one of the 'elect'. But that is the only way I see a cogent statement, from your POV. Matthews gospel tells us the true story about Judas below :
1-Judas was a child of the bridegroom (Matthew 9:15).
2-Judas was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 10:1-13)
3-Jesus called Him one of His twelve disciples. (Matthew 10:1–13).
4-Judas was sent out as a sheep among wolves (Matthew 10:16).
5-Jesus said to the 12 - “He that receives you receives Me” (Matthew 10:40).
6-Judas was granted to know the mysteries of the Kingdom (Matthew 13:10–11).
7-Judas eyes saw and his ears heard and he understood Jesus (Matthew 13:16).
conclusion: The doctrines of men cloud ones vision of the truth contained in the scriptures above in Matthews gospel regarding Judas as a disciple like the rest of the disciples. Jesus sent him out as a sheep among wolves. Judas was just as saved as the others but became apostate. Only a believer can become apostate. The doctrines of men give a false security and make void all the warning passages in scripture to remain faithful. Judas one of Jesus sheep became lost and apostate.
judas as elect/chosen by Christ fits under what Paule describes below with Gods elect/chosen Jews/Israel.
Romans 9:30–32 — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Romans 11:20–23 — 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Those Jews and Gentiles who are saved, are saved by Grace through faith.( not because of election, chosen, predestination)
Those Jews and Christians who are not saved would not believe. ( not because of election/chosen, predestination )
|
|
|
|
Post by civic on Mar 13, 2023 4:42:11 GMT -8
Let’s look at Jesus teaching in John below with Unconditional election ( the U in TULIP ) and being one of Gods chosen/elect.
John 15: 16
Calvinists use this verse (as well as many others) to support their position that God chooses who will, and who will not be saved.
As we look at Scripture with the intent to support our theological positions, we must consider things such as context, who was speaking, and who was being spoken to.
Let’s look at those three things with John. 15: 16.
1) Context:
John chapters 13 – 17 Jesus is with His disciples in the upper room, just prior to Him being taken for the trial.
John 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. John
It is at this point that Judas leaves the upper room to betray Christ.
Left in the upper room are the 11 remaining disciples, and Jesus Christ.
2) Who is speaking?
There is no debate that Christ is doing the speaking.
3) Who is being spoken to?
The 11 remaining disciples.
The Calvinistic view is that Jesus here tells His disciples that He has chosen them for salvation; and that they did not choose Him as Savior.
What is Jesus actually saying?
The gospels bear witness that Jesus did indeed choose, and call each of His disciples. But does this mean that this choosing was ALSO for salvation. The Calvinist would say, Yes. But that cannot be true.
Do you know Why?
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John
One of the verses used by Calvinists to prove “Unconditional Election” is the above verse. However, notice the following verses.
John 6:66-68
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Many of those who called themselves Jesus' disciples left Him from this time. Peter says “Lord, to whom shall we go?”
But Jesus says the following:
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John
Notice the words, “Have not I chosen you twelve”. Jesus was not just referring to the 11 disciples that remained in John 13:30; He was speaking about ALL 12 of the disciples, INCLUDING Judas Iscariot.
This very clearly proves that when Jesus said He chose the disciples, He did not mean that He chose them for salvation; because we know Judas Iscariot was NOT saved.
Jesus chose the 12 for a purpose, each of the 12 had a purpose, including Judas Iscariot. But what Jesus did not choose them for was salvation; that is the main thing that must be understood about this “choosing”.
Why is this important to understand in relation to John 15:16?
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
God chooses us, and calls us for His purpose, not ours. This was NOT a call to salvation, it was a call to SERVICE.
So you see, this text has NOTHING to do with God choosing us for salvation but for service , to fulfill His purpose and plan .
The calvinist conflates choosing/election with salvation. That is not the biblical principle as demonstrated from Johns gospel above.
|
|
|
|
Post by civic on Mar 13, 2023 4:45:53 GMT -8
synergy wrote this elsewhere and I'm quoting him on election/reprobation. Calvinists assert that the non-elect (the reprobates) have never been and will never be the objects of God’s redeeming love regardless of whether or not they hear the gospel. They assert that God has determined not to give the non-elect the grace and faith necessary for salvation. They base this theory on Romans 9. Let's proceed to critically analyze this theory. First of all, who and what is the subject matter of Paul's discussion in Rom 9? Rom 9:2 that I have great heaviness and continual pain in my heart. Rom 9:3 For I myself was wishing to be accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh, Rom 9:4 who are Israelites; to whom belong the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the service of God, and the promises; Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Rom 9:6 Not however that the Word of God has failed, for not all those of Israel are Israel; Paul has great heaviness for the critical failures of Israel. That is the context. Now let's proceed straight into the 3 verses that Calvinists run to most in a desperate attempt to prove their reprobate theory: 1) Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Here, Paul is making a specific point about how God elects to deal with unbelieving Jews. This is not an election to one's salvation. There is nothing in the verse to indicate that Jacob was saved and Esau was reprobated. In fact, Rom 11:25-32 demolishes the reprobate interpretation of this verse. Rom 11:25-32 clearly states that God will ultimately save Israel by faith. Paul cites Rom 9:13 as a demonstration that God was never obligated to save Israel on the basis of ethnicity but by believing his promises (Jacob as the example). 2) Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens. Again, Paul is making a specific point about how God deals with unbelieving Jews, not about election to salvation or reprobation. Just as God hardened Pharaoh so that Israel would be saved and his name would be proclaimed everywhere, God is hardening Israel. God has mercy on Gentiles and hardens Israelites. Paul will make the point in Rom 11:25 that this hardening of unbelieving Jews will last only until all the “fullness” of the Gentiles is achieved, then these unbelieving Jews will be saved, if they believe. So, reprobation is ruled out of Rom 9:18 because the hardening Paul speaks of is specific to the Jews, not all unbelievers, it is temporary, not permanent, and it is for the maximizing of salvation for all. 3) Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; Once again, Paul is explaining how God is dealing with unbelieving Jews. Paul’s point is that God has the right to change the destiny of Jews if they refuse to believe the gospel. Even though they have been shaped for blessing as God’s people, because they reject his gospel, they are now being shaped for wrath. Gentiles, vessels formerly shaped for wrath are now being re-shaped into vessels of mercy, while Jews, vessels shaped historically for mercy are now being shaped for wrath. God is powerful enough to save the way he chooses and that he will not give special treatment even to his own ethnic people if they do not trust in Jesus.
And this on abiding sheep.
What we can agree to is that as long as we abide in his hand then we are in his fold and saved. There is no question about that. But does the Bible have anything further to say about abiding? Look no further than the following phrases (from John also!):
John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Since John is not in the business of contradicting himself, the same warnings can be applied to Christ's sheep in Christ's hand.
Harmonization of verses (especially ones in the same book) is a must if we are ever to arrive at the truth.
One more thing about sheep if I may. We do know that sheep state transformations can happen. We know that lost sheep can be transformed into his (saved) sheep by Christ. So the Calvinist unconditional election to one state or another for all eternity falters when you take into consideration the sheep state change.
|
|
|
|
Post by Parker on Mar 13, 2023 6:19:50 GMT -8
Let’s look at Jesus teaching in John below with Unconditional election ( the U in TULIP ) and being one of Gods chosen/elect. John 15: 16 Calvinists use this verse (as well as many others) to support their position that God chooses who will, and who will not be saved. As we look at Scripture with the intent to support our theological positions, we must consider things such as context, who was speaking, and who was being spoken to. Let’s look at those three things with John. 15: 16. 1) Context: John chapters 13 – 17 Jesus is with His disciples in the upper room, just prior to Him being taken for the trial. John 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. John It is at this point that Judas leaves the upper room to betray Christ. Left in the upper room are the 11 remaining disciples, and Jesus Christ. 2) Who is speaking? There is no debate that Christ is doing the speaking. 3) Who is being spoken to? The 11 remaining disciples. The Calvinistic view is that Jesus here tells His disciples that He has chosen them for salvation; and that they did not choose Him as Savior. What is Jesus actually saying? The gospels bear witness that Jesus did indeed choose, and call each of His disciples. But does this mean that this choosing was ALSO for salvation. The Calvinist would say, Yes. But that cannot be true. Do you know Why? John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John One of the verses used by Calvinists to prove “Unconditional Election” is the above verse. However, notice the following verses. John 6:66-68 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Many of those who called themselves Jesus' disciples left Him from this time. Peter says “Lord, to whom shall we go?” But Jesus says the following: John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John Notice the words, “Have not I chosen you twelve”. Jesus was not just referring to the 11 disciples that remained in John 13:30; He was speaking about ALL 12 of the disciples, INCLUDING Judas Iscariot. This very clearly proves that when Jesus said He chose the disciples, He did not mean that He chose them for salvation; because we know Judas Iscariot was NOT saved. Jesus chose the 12 for a purpose, each of the 12 had a purpose, including Judas Iscariot. But what Jesus did not choose them for was salvation; that is the main thing that must be understood about this “choosing”. Why is this important to understand in relation to John 15:16? Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. God chooses us, and calls us for His purpose, not ours. This was NOT a call to salvation, it was a call to SERVICE. So you see, this text has NOTHING to do with God choosing us for salvation but for service , to fulfill His purpose and plan . The calvinist conflates choosing/election with salvation. That is not the biblical principle as demonstrated from Johns gospel above. Exactly! |
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Mar 13, 2023 7:49:05 GMT -8
Let’s look at Jesus teaching in John below with Unconditional election ( the U in TULIP ) and being one of Gods chosen/elect. John 15: 16 Calvinists use this verse (as well as many others) to support their position that God chooses who will, and who will not be saved. As we look at Scripture with the intent to support our theological positions, we must consider things such as context, who was speaking, and who was being spoken to. Let’s look at those three things with John. 15: 16. 1) Context: John chapters 13 – 17 Jesus is with His disciples in the upper room, just prior to Him being taken for the trial. John 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. John It is at this point that Judas leaves the upper room to betray Christ. Left in the upper room are the 11 remaining disciples, and Jesus Christ. 2) Who is speaking? There is no debate that Christ is doing the speaking. 3) Who is being spoken to? The 11 remaining disciples. The Calvinistic view is that Jesus here tells His disciples that He has chosen them for salvation; and that they did not choose Him as Savior. What is Jesus actually saying? The gospels bear witness that Jesus did indeed choose, and call each of His disciples. But does this mean that this choosing was ALSO for salvation. The Calvinist would say, Yes. But that cannot be true. Do you know Why? John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John One of the verses used by Calvinists to prove “Unconditional Election” is the above verse. However, notice the following verses. John 6:66-68 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Many of those who called themselves Jesus' disciples left Him from this time. Peter says “Lord, to whom shall we go?” But Jesus says the following: John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John Notice the words, “Have not I chosen you twelve”. Jesus was not just referring to the 11 disciples that remained in John 13:30; He was speaking about ALL 12 of the disciples, INCLUDING Judas Iscariot. This very clearly proves that when Jesus said He chose the disciples, He did not mean that He chose them for salvation; because we know Judas Iscariot was NOT saved. Jesus chose the 12 for a purpose, each of the 12 had a purpose, including Judas Iscariot. But what Jesus did not choose them for was salvation; that is the main thing that must be understood about this “choosing”. Why is this important to understand in relation to John 15:16? Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. God chooses us, and calls us for His purpose, not ours. This was NOT a call to salvation, it was a call to SERVICE. So you see, this text has NOTHING to do with God choosing us for salvation but for service , to fulfill His purpose and plan . The calvinist conflates choosing/election with salvation. That is not the biblical principle as demonstrated from Johns gospel above. Exactly! Here you yourself say that this particular choosing of the 12 was not concerning salvation. So how can you use it to show the one (election) doesn't necessarily result in the other (salvation of the elect)? Election of the saved, by definition, is always about salvation and the results of salvation. It is redundant to even point it out. If you want to point out that Calvinists generally misuse this passage, that is a fair argument, but you deny your own point with your own argument here. |
|
|
|
Post by Parker on Mar 13, 2023 12:04:48 GMT -8
I found this article to be very informative on this topic and so I thought I would share it. Did Judas Have a Choice, or Was He Predestined to Betray Jesus?I thought this part was pretty good: Considering all the issues involved, I like the following conclusion as one way to settle the debate: That before the foundation of the universe, God predetermined that a group (known as "the elect") composed of all who freely receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior are predestined to be "conformed to the image of Christ" We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose: 29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:28-29 Also Ephesians 1 Therefore, no one is predestined to Heaven or Hell. We are given the free choice to receive Christ. Those who do are called the “elect,” chosen and predestined not in regards to whether they go to Heaven or to Hell, but instead they are predestined to mature to look like Jesus. |
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Mar 13, 2023 15:00:42 GMT -8
I found this article to be very informative on this topic and so I thought I would share it. Did Judas Have a Choice, or Was He Predestined to Betray Jesus?I thought this part was pretty good: Considering all the issues involved, I like the following conclusion as one way to settle the debate: That before the foundation of the universe, God predetermined that a group (known as "the elect") composed of all who freely receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior are predestined to be "conformed to the image of Christ" We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose: 29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:28-29 Also Ephesians 1 Therefore, no one is predestined to Heaven or Hell. We are given the free choice to receive Christ. Those who do are called the “elect,” chosen and predestined not in regards to whether they go to Heaven or to Hell, but instead they are predestined to mature to look like Jesus. Your link, "Did Judas Have a Choice, or Was He Predestined to Betray Jesus?" Reminds me of my first 'real job' —and no, it didn't take me long to figure out I did not want to be a salesman. One of the tactics they taught was to give the prospective customer a choice between two possibilities: "Sooner or later, all households have a serious fire. Do you want to die in that fire, or do you want to buy one of my fire alarm systems?" Who says that Choice and Predestination are mutually exclusive? They aren't. |
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Mar 13, 2023 15:07:22 GMT -8
True, as in? You say, "He was chosen, but not a believer." Do you mean, "'chosen' as in 'elect'"? He was not one of the 'elect'. But that is the only way I see a cogent statement, from your POV. Matthews gospel tells us the true story about Judas below :
1-Judas was a child of the bridegroom (Matthew 9:15).
2-Judas was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 10:1-13)
3-Jesus called Him one of His twelve disciples. (Matthew 10:1–13).
4-Judas was sent out as a sheep among wolves (Matthew 10:16).
5-Jesus said to the 12 - “He that receives you receives Me” (Matthew 10:40).
6-Judas was granted to know the mysteries of the Kingdom (Matthew 13:10–11).
7-Judas eyes saw and his ears heard and he understood Jesus (Matthew 13:16).
conclusion: The doctrines of men cloud ones vision of the truth contained in the scriptures above in Matthews gospel regarding Judas as a disciple like the rest of the disciples. Jesus sent him out as a sheep among wolves. Judas was just as saved as the others but became apostate. Only a believer can become apostate. The doctrines of men give a false security and make void all the warning passages in scripture to remain faithful. Judas one of Jesus sheep became lost and apostate.
judas as elect/chosen by Christ fits under what Paule describes below with Gods elect/chosen Jews/Israel.
Romans 9:30–32 — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Romans 11:20–23 — 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Those Jews and Gentiles who are saved, are saved by Grace through faith.( not because of election, chosen, predestination)
Those Jews and Christians who are not saved would not believe. ( not because of election/chosen, predestination )
You no doubt have seen where Paul talks to churches as though there were not tares among the wheat. Nothing you showed there, if it was about the elect, can be said to apply to Judas, if he was not among the elect. And of course, and as usual, there is the problem to get around, that the mind of the flesh cannot do anything to please God, but must first be born again. |
|
|
|
Post by Parker on Mar 14, 2023 5:20:43 GMT -8
I found this article to be very informative on this topic and so I thought I would share it. Did Judas Have a Choice, or Was He Predestined to Betray Jesus?I thought this part was pretty good: Considering all the issues involved, I like the following conclusion as one way to settle the debate: That before the foundation of the universe, God predetermined that a group (known as "the elect") composed of all who freely receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior are predestined to be "conformed to the image of Christ" We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose: 29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:28-29 Also Ephesians 1 Therefore, no one is predestined to Heaven or Hell. We are given the free choice to receive Christ. Those who do are called the “elect,” chosen and predestined not in regards to whether they go to Heaven or to Hell, but instead they are predestined to mature to look like Jesus. Your link, "Did Judas Have a Choice, or Was He Predestined to Betray Jesus?" Reminds me of my first 'real job' —and no, it didn't take me long to figure out I did not want to be a salesman. One of the tactics they taught was to give the prospective customer a choice between two possibilities: "Sooner or later, all households have a serious fire. Do you want to die in that fire, or do you want to buy one of my fire alarm systems?" Who says that Choice and Predestination are mutually exclusive? They aren't. Exactly! |
|
|
|
Post by praiseyeshua on Mar 17, 2023 4:46:06 GMT -8
I found this article to be very informative on this topic and so I thought I would share it. Did Judas Have a Choice, or Was He Predestined to Betray Jesus?I thought this part was pretty good: Considering all the issues involved, I like the following conclusion as one way to settle the debate: That before the foundation of the universe, God predetermined that a group (known as "the elect") composed of all who freely receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior are predestined to be "conformed to the image of Christ" We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose: 29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:28-29 Also Ephesians 1 Therefore, no one is predestined to Heaven or Hell. We are given the free choice to receive Christ. Those who do are called the “elect,” chosen and predestined not in regards to whether they go to Heaven or to Hell, but instead they are predestined to mature to look like Jesus. Corporate Election. |
|
|
|
Post by praiseyeshua on Mar 17, 2023 4:55:27 GMT -8
Matthews gospel tells us the true story about Judas below :
1-Judas was a child of the bridegroom (Matthew 9:15).
2-Judas was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 10:1-13)
3-Jesus called Him one of His twelve disciples. (Matthew 10:1–13).
4-Judas was sent out as a sheep among wolves (Matthew 10:16).
5-Jesus said to the 12 - “He that receives you receives Me” (Matthew 10:40).
6-Judas was granted to know the mysteries of the Kingdom (Matthew 13:10–11).
7-Judas eyes saw and his ears heard and he understood Jesus (Matthew 13:16).
conclusion: The doctrines of men cloud ones vision of the truth contained in the scriptures above in Matthews gospel regarding Judas as a disciple like the rest of the disciples. Jesus sent him out as a sheep among wolves. Judas was just as saved as the others but became apostate. Only a believer can become apostate. The doctrines of men give a false security and make void all the warning passages in scripture to remain faithful. Judas one of Jesus sheep became lost and apostate.
judas as elect/chosen by Christ fits under what Paule describes below with Gods elect/chosen Jews/Israel.
Romans 9:30–32 — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Romans 11:20–23 — 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Those Jews and Gentiles who are saved, are saved by Grace through faith.( not because of election, chosen, predestination)
Those Jews and Christians who are not saved would not believe. ( not because of election/chosen, predestination )
You no doubt have seen where Paul talks to churches as though there were not tares among the wheat. Nothing you showed there, if it was about the elect, can be said to apply to Judas, if he was not among the elect. And of course, and as usual, there is the problem to get around, that the mind of the flesh cannot do anything to please God, but must first be born again. It has long amazed me how the Calvinist will tell you that they don't know who the elect are .... and don't pretend to know..... And... .then insist they know that Judas was not part of the elect. Does anyone else notice this silliness? Can I ask that all Calvinists be consistent in their claims? |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Mar 20, 2023 5:43:05 GMT -8
You no doubt have seen where Paul talks to churches as though there were not tares among the wheat. Nothing you showed there, if it was about the elect, can be said to apply to Judas, if he was not among the elect. And of course, and as usual, there is the problem to get around, that the mind of the flesh cannot do anything to please God, but must first be born again. It has long amazed me how the Calvinist will tell you that they don't know who the elect are .... and don't pretend to know..... And... .then insist they know that Judas was not part of the elect. Does anyone else notice this silliness? Can I ask that all Calvinists be consistent in their claims? And every Calvinist I have talked with who upholds their doctrines of grace will admit they cannot tell the person whom they share the gospel with these two basic things. 1- God really loves them 2- Jesus died for their sins. If the person is not one of the elect then God actually hates them, not loves them and the atonement was only for the elect. So the honest 5 point Calvinist cannot tell everyone they share the gospel with God loves them and Jesus died for their sins. |
|
