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Post by praiseyeshua on Apr 30, 2023 14:04:50 GMT -8
I agree. The Bible clearly indicates that Judas was not saved. Jesus Himself said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). God had, from ages past, determined that Christ would be betrayed by Judas, die on the cross for our sins, and be resurrected. This is what Jesus meant when He said He would “go just as it is written about him.” Nothing would stop the plan of God to provide salvation for mankind. Couldnt part of the plan as far as salvation goes, not include Judas? Judas was possessed by Satan. John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Matthew 26:24 could well be speaking of the decree of destruction upon Satan. Many people reference Matthew 26:24 when it predetermined council of God was the preordain Christ. Luk 22:22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” I wouldn't "die on the hill" of Judas died without God. After all, a thief dying for his own crimes found mercy in his dying breaths. We ALL need mercy. |
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Post by Theophilus on Apr 30, 2023 15:23:54 GMT -8
The Plan of salvation, The gospel, yes it includes everybody. John 3:16 but you have to have faith in Jesus and believe in him For salvation. I've been taught that Judas wanted Jesus to defeat the Romans and restore the Israeli Empire. I don't think being around Jesus ever changed him as the Bible says that he was the thief from the beginning. And when he betrayed Jesus it was for money. In other words he was out for himself, he was his own savior. He got upset when the expensive perfume was poured on Jesus's feet. To him it was a waste he could have sold it and come up and had a big piece of change in his pocket. So salvation was there walking around with him everyday in the bodily form of Jesus Christ but he just didn't see it. thank you for your reply but I'm unconvinced. Parden me but it sounds kinda Catholic. No problem, I've argued both sides of this debate before and to me the strongest argument seems to be that Judas will not be in heaven. But that's not my call, I can't judge another man's salvation. All I can do is speculate. Now universalism teaches everyone goes to heaven, And if that were the case what would be the need of hell? But back to Judas. Now we Do know that he felt bad about what he did and maybe he repented when he tried to give back the silver. Then it seems he felt so guilty and ashamed he killed himself. How that would all work out in the Salvation Process I have no idea. Some people claim that if it's saved person commit suicide they lose their salvation. I don't agree with that one. To me if you're emotionally upset enough to take your own life then you just might not be responsible for your actions. And possibly God wouldn't hold you accountable. |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 8:45:12 GMT -8
Calvinism holds Christ shed his blood only for the elect - those unconditionally chosen for Salvation. What do you mean unconditionally? Man has to do something. believe maybe? That's a condition. Then we have to keep ourselves saved. |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 8:49:46 GMT -8
Judas was included among the twelve. He partook of the bread - the symbol of Christ's body which was broken even for him. He partook of the cup - The symbol of Christ's blood which was shed even for him refuting limited atonement Now I wouldn't go that far as to use Judas as proof. Don't fool yourself. He is a poor example. In his case, the bible does say he was chosen, and we know what he was chosen for. The bible says there are wolves among the sheep. I believe it is safe to say Judas was a wolf. And taking the bread and the cup proves he was among the sheep. Building such a belief on Judas, is shaky ground. |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 8:52:14 GMT -8
I believe the Blood of Jesus Christ is efficient for all of humanity. However, I don't know how these verses establish your argument. Notice..... I agree with you, they do not. |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 8:53:34 GMT -8
Judas, one of the twelve, was also an unbeliever from the beginning: Luke 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Good point he was a disciple but not a believer. He was elect but not a believer, he was chosen but not a believer. This is where Calvinism fails. Curious, where in that does Calvinism fail? Not that I agree with Calvinism, but I don't see your proof. |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 8:59:07 GMT -8
Judas was possessed by Satan. If that were true, which it is, then Judas could not be saved. Just the fact that scripyure said it was Satan who posessed him is amazing. I would think it would have been one of Satans minnions. It would seem Judas way chosen, but not for salvation. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on May 7, 2023 12:46:19 GMT -8
Judas was possessed by Satan. If that were true, which it is, then Judas could not be saved. Just the fact that scripyure said it was Satan who posessed him is amazing. I would think it would have been one of Satans minnions. It would seem Judas way chosen, but not for salvation. I tell you some verses that state our OWN condition.... which sound very similar to what you're describing of Judas. Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: What does "without God" and "without hope" describe? Things CHANGE. Satan left Judas and Judas was distraught and extraordinarily sorrowful. Where you see no hope. I see the mercy of God. I have no desire to declare anyone lost after personally experiencing the mercy and longsuffering of our Lord. If Judas DOES appear with us in Glory. I will not be disappointed to see him. Sometimes I believe there are some that will be disappointed to see their enemies share in our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that speaks to their own condition more so than those they hate. |
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Post by civic on May 7, 2023 14:05:03 GMT -8
Judas was included among the twelve. He partook of the bread - the symbol of Christ's body which was broken even for him. He partook of the cup - The symbol of Christ's blood which was shed even for him refuting limited atonement Now I wouldn't go that far as to use Judas as proof. Don't fool yourself. He is a poor example. In his case, the bible does say he was chosen, and we know what he was chosen for. The bible says there are wolves among the sheep. I believe it is safe to say Judas was a wolf. And taking the bread and the cup proves he was among the sheep. Building such a belief on Judas, is shaky ground. see this post and the following one in this thread and let me know your thoughts berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/5802/thread |
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Post by Bronson on May 7, 2023 15:02:33 GMT -8
Here's how Calvin's view Judas as far as being "called and chosen" What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism by John PiperBut the main objection to using John 12:32 (draw all) to deny that the drawing of John 6:44 (“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him”) actually produces the coming, is the way John describes the relationship between God’s drawing and the failure of Judas to follow Jesus to the end. In John 6:64–65 Jesus says, “There are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Notice that Jesus says the reason he said (back in John 6:44) that “no one can come to me unless it is granted him (=is drawn) by the Father,” is to explain why “there are some of you who do not believe.” We could paraphrase it like this: Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe on him in spite of all the teaching and invitations he received. And because he knew this, he explains it with the words, “No one comes to me unless it is given to him by my Father.” There were many influences in the life of Judas for good — in that sense Judas was wooed, and entreated, and drawn for three years. But the point of Jesus in John 6:44 and 6:65 is that Judas’s resistance to grace was not the ultimately decisive factor. What was ultimately decisive was that it was not “granted him” to come. He was not “drawn” by the Father. The decisive, irresistible gift of grace was not given. This is why we speak of “irresistible grace.” In ourselves we are all just as resistant to grace as Judas. And the reason any of us come to Jesus is not that we are smarter, or wiser, or more virtuous than Judas, but that the Father overcame our resistance and drew us to Christ. All of us are saved by irresistible grace — amazing grace! |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 15:32:18 GMT -8
Here's how Calvin's view Judas as far as being "called and chosen" What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism by John PiperBut the main objection to using John 12:32 (draw all) to deny that the drawing of John 6:44 (“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him”) actually produces the coming, is the way John describes the relationship between God’s drawing and the failure of Judas to follow Jesus to the end. In John 6:64–65 Jesus says, “There are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Notice that Jesus says the reason he said (back in John 6:44) that “no one can come to me unless it is granted him (=is drawn) by the Father,” is to explain why “there are some of you who do not believe.” We could paraphrase it like this: Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe on him in spite of all the teaching and invitations he received. And because he knew this, he explains it with the words, “No one comes to me unless it is given to him by my Father.” There were many influences in the life of Judas for good — in that sense Judas was wooed, and entreated, and drawn for three years. But the point of Jesus in John 6:44 and 6:65 is that Judas’s resistance to grace was not the ultimately decisive factor. What was ultimately decisive was that it was not “granted him” to come. He was not “drawn” by the Father. The decisive, irresistible gift of grace was not given. This is why we speak of “irresistible grace.” In ourselves we are all just as resistant to grace as Judas. And the reason any of us come to Jesus is not that we are smarter, or wiser, or more virtuous than Judas, but that the Father overcame our resistance and drew us to Christ. All of us are saved by irresistible grace — amazing grace! Interesting. This grace, why is it resistible? |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 15:33:27 GMT -8
Now I wouldn't go that far as to use Judas as proof. Don't fool yourself. He is a poor example. In his case, the bible does say he was chosen, and we know what he was chosen for. The bible says there are wolves among the sheep. I believe it is safe to say Judas was a wolf. And taking the bread and the cup proves he was among the sheep. Building such a belief on Judas, is shaky ground. see this post and the following one in this thread and let me know your thoughts berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/5802/threadBronson seems to make a lot of sense. But I am waiting for his reply about grace that's irresistable. |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 15:37:13 GMT -8
If that were true, which it is, then Judas could not be saved. Just the fact that scripyure said it was Satan who posessed him is amazing. I would think it would have been one of Satans minnions. It would seem Judas way chosen, but not for salvation. I tell you some verses that state our OWN condition.... which sound very similar to what you're describing of Judas. Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: What does "without God" and "without hope" describe? Things CHANGE. Satan left Judas and Judas was distraught and extraordinarily sorrowful. Where you see no hope. I see the mercy of God. I have no desire to declare anyone lost after personally experiencing the mercy and longsuffering of our Lord. If Judas DOES appear with us in Glory. I will not be disappointed to see him. Sometimes I believe there are some that will be disappointed to see their enemies share in our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that speaks to their own condition more so than those they hate. Judas was possessed by Satan, how do you get around that or compare it to up? Were you possessed at one time? |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 15:39:03 GMT -8
Now I wouldn't go that far as to use Judas as proof. Don't fool yourself. He is a poor example. In his case, the bible does say he was chosen, and we know what he was chosen for. The bible says there are wolves among the sheep. I believe it is safe to say Judas was a wolf. And taking the bread and the cup proves he was among the sheep. Building such a belief on Judas, is shaky ground. see this post and the following one in this thread and let me know your thoughts berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/5802/threadYou have a lot of info there, thats for sure. Thanks. But I do have to also consider what Jesus said about him as being the son of perdition. Which means eternally damned. That's pretty hard to get around. |
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Post by Bronson on May 7, 2023 16:14:56 GMT -8
Here's how Calvin's view Judas as far as being "called and chosen" What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism by John PiperBut the main objection to using John 12:32 (draw all) to deny that the drawing of John 6:44 (“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him”) actually produces the coming, is the way John describes the relationship between God’s drawing and the failure of Judas to follow Jesus to the end. In John 6:64–65 Jesus says, “There are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Notice that Jesus says the reason he said (back in John 6:44) that “no one can come to me unless it is granted him (=is drawn) by the Father,” is to explain why “there are some of you who do not believe.” We could paraphrase it like this: Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe on him in spite of all the teaching and invitations he received. And because he knew this, he explains it with the words, “No one comes to me unless it is given to him by my Father.” There were many influences in the life of Judas for good — in that sense Judas was wooed, and entreated, and drawn for three years. But the point of Jesus in John 6:44 and 6:65 is that Judas’s resistance to grace was not the ultimately decisive factor. What was ultimately decisive was that it was not “granted him” to come. He was not “drawn” by the Father. The decisive, irresistible gift of grace was not given. This is why we speak of “irresistible grace.” In ourselves we are all just as resistant to grace as Judas. And the reason any of us come to Jesus is not that we are smarter, or wiser, or more virtuous than Judas, but that the Father overcame our resistance and drew us to Christ. All of us are saved by irresistible grace — amazing grace! Interesting. This grace, why is it resistible? I'm not a Calvinism, so none of it makes sense to me. It's their work-around, God dragging you kicking and screaming to the Cross. It goes with the Calvinist understanding of total depravity as meaning a total inability to respond to the gospel. John Piper view not mine: “Irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved.” Furthermore, “The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can conquer all resistance when he wills.” In other words, “It means that the Holy Spirit, whenever he chooses, can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.” I'm into free will and how God’s sovereignty and human freedom (free will) relate to each other in connection to salvation. |
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