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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 16:38:46 GMT -8
Interesting. This grace, why is it resistible? I'm not a Calvinism, so none of it makes sense to me. It's their work-around, God dragging you kicking and screaming to the Cross. It goes with the Calvinist understanding of total depravity as meaning a total inability to respond to the gospel. John Piper view not mine: “Irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved.” Furthermore, “The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can conquer all resistance when he wills.” In other words, “It means that the Holy Spirit, whenever he chooses, can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.” I'm into free will and how God’s sovereignty and human freedom (free will) relate to each other in connection to salvation. Okay. Thank you. |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 16:40:11 GMT -8
Interesting. This grace, why is it resistible? I'm not a Calvinism, so none of it makes sense to me. It's their work-around, God dragging you kicking and screaming to the Cross. It goes with the Calvinist understanding of total depravity as meaning a total inability to respond to the gospel. John Piper view not mine: “Irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved.” Furthermore, “The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can conquer all resistance when he wills.” In other words, “It means that the Holy Spirit, whenever he chooses, can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.” I'm into free will and how God’s sovereignty and human freedom (free will) relate to each other in connection to salvation. You're not a calvinist? who around here is? is there any calvinists here? |
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Post by duncan on May 7, 2023 16:42:28 GMT -8
Interesting. This grace, why is it resistible? It's their work-around, God dragging you kicking and screaming to the Cross. It goes with the Calvinist understanding of total depravity as meaning a total inability to respond to the gospel. God has to drag someone to the cross? While they are kicking and screaming? Who would come up with such a thing? |
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Post by civic on May 7, 2023 17:12:29 GMT -8
You have a lot of info there, thats for sure. Thanks. But I do have to also consider what Jesus said about him as being the son of perdition. Which means eternally damned. That's pretty hard to get around. It can mean that but there are other meanings as well. It means a loss of eternal life as a meaning see below under the verse in question. Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 684: ἀπώλεια ἀπώλεια, ἀπωλείας, ἡ (from ἀπόλλυμι, which see); 1. actively, a destroying, utter destruction: as, of vessels, Romans 9:22; τοῦ μύρου, waste, Mark 14:4 (in Matthew 26:8 without a genitive) (in Polybius 6, 59, 5 consumption, opposed to τήρησις); the putting of a man to death, Acts 25:16 Rec.; by metonymy, a destructive thing or opinion: in plural 2 Peter 2:2 Rec.; but the correct reading ἀσελγείαις was long ago adopted here. 2. passively, a perishing, ruin, destruction; a. in general: τό ἀργύριον σου σύν σοι εἴη εἰς ἀπώλειαν, let thy money perish with thee, Acts 8:20; βυρθίζειν τινα εἰς ὄλεθρον καί ἀπώλειαν, with the included idea of misery, 1 Timothy 6:9; αἱρέσεις ἀπωλείας destructive opinions, 2 Peter 2:1; ἐπάγειν ἑαυτοῖς ἀπώλειαν, ibid. cf. 2 Peter 2:3. b. in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God: Revelation 17:8, 11, cf. Revelation 19:20; Philippians 3:19; 2 Peter 3:16; opposed to ἡ περιποίησις τῆς ψυχῆς, Hebrews 10:39; to ἡ ζωή, Matthew 7:13; to σωτηρία, Philippians 1:28. ὁ υἱός τῆς ἀπωλείας, a man doomed to eternal misery (a Hebraism, see υἱός, 2): 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (of Antichrist); John 17:12 (of Judas, the traitor); ἡμέρα κρίσεως καί ἀπωλείας τῶν ἀσεβῶν, 2 Peter 3:7. (In secular authors from Polybius as above (but see Aristotle, probl. 17, 3, 2, vol. ii., p. 916{a}, 26; 29, 14, 10 ibid. 952^b, 26; Nicom. eth. 4, 1 ibid. 1120{a}, 2, etc.); often in the Sept. and O. T. Apocrypha.) |
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Post by civic on May 7, 2023 17:13:16 GMT -8
I'm not a Calvinism, so none of it makes sense to me. It's their work-around, God dragging you kicking and screaming to the Cross. It goes with the Calvinist understanding of total depravity as meaning a total inability to respond to the gospel. John Piper view not mine: “Irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved.” Furthermore, “The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can conquer all resistance when he wills.” In other words, “It means that the Holy Spirit, whenever he chooses, can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.” I'm into free will and how God’s sovereignty and human freedom (free will) relate to each other in connection to salvation. You're not a calvinist? who around here is? is there any calvinists here? mark and josh and a few others are Calvinists and several of us here were at one time. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on May 7, 2023 19:18:16 GMT -8
I tell you some verses that state our OWN condition.... which sound very similar to what you're describing of Judas. Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: What does "without God" and "without hope" describe? Things CHANGE. Satan left Judas and Judas was distraught and extraordinarily sorrowful. Where you see no hope. I see the mercy of God. I have no desire to declare anyone lost after personally experiencing the mercy and longsuffering of our Lord. If Judas DOES appear with us in Glory. I will not be disappointed to see him. Sometimes I believe there are some that will be disappointed to see their enemies share in our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that speaks to their own condition more so than those they hate. Judas was possessed by Satan, how do you get around that or compare it to up? Were you possessed at one time? So you never lied? The father of lies is who? Do remember when Jesus told those Pharisees in his day why they were of their father? You are quick to condemn others without any thoughts of why you should be condemned yourself. Which is a trait common in Calvinism. |
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Post by Bronson on May 8, 2023 4:09:06 GMT -8
It's their work-around, God dragging you kicking and screaming to the Cross. It goes with the Calvinist understanding of total depravity as meaning a total inability to respond to the gospel. God has to drag someone to the cross? While they are kicking and screaming? Who would come up with such a thing? The word Jesus uses in John 6:44 is the word helkō, which can mean either “draw / attract” (like a magnet) or “drag.” |
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Post by civic on May 8, 2023 4:39:44 GMT -8
God has to drag someone to the cross? While they are kicking and screaming? Who would come up with such a thing? The word Jesus uses in John 6:44 is the word helkō, which can mean either “draw / attract” (like a magnet) or “drag.” Here is the major problem with Calvinism as I know since I was one who taught it for over 4 decades. They isolate passages and remove them from the greater context in a passage, book, author, the whole of scripture. In the same book a few chapters later Jesus uses the same Greek work helko and says the following: John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” And we know that everyone is not saved. John 6:44 cannot be used apart from faith. Only those who are drawn and believe will be those who are raised on the last day. We know that not all will believe who are drawn. The Holy Spirit convicts many of their sins yet they are never saved. In both John 6 and 12 the surrounding verses in both 6:44 and 12:32 Jesus talks about faith in Him. It’s really ironic in discussing these passages with a Calvinist they throw out the Solas. Sola Fide and Sola Christos. As if to say drawing saves anyone apart from faith in Christ. PS and don't get me started with their beliefs on regeneration lol.  . They must force that into John 6 as well. hope this helps !!! |
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Post by praiseyeshua on May 8, 2023 5:28:12 GMT -8
God has to drag someone to the cross? While they are kicking and screaming? Who would come up with such a thing? The word Jesus uses in John 6:44 is the word helkō, which can mean either “draw / attract” (like a magnet) or “drag.” No. There are Greek words for DRAG with overwhelming force. helkō is not one of them. Which is what is being implied in the conversation. You can "drag" most anything that is doesn't resist. Resistance is the "KEY" here to the conversation. Check out ἀποσπάω and σύρω Don't believe everything you read. You'll find σύρω in John 21:8. Acts 14:19. Pay close attention to what it says. You will find that the John 6:44 doesn't say what many hyper Calvinist claim it says. |
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Post by civic on May 8, 2023 6:39:46 GMT -8
The word Jesus uses in John 6:44 is the word helkō, which can mean either “draw / attract” (like a magnet) or “drag.” No. There are Greek words for DRAG with overwhelming force. helkō is not one of them. Which is what is being implied in the conversation. You can "drag" most anything that is doesn't resist. Resistance is the "KEY" here to the conversation. Check out ἀποσπάω and σύρω Don't believe everything you read. You'll find σύρω in John 21:8. Acts 14:19. Pay close attention to what it says. You will find that the John 6:44 doesn't say what many hyper Calvinist claim it says. Ditto |
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Post by Admin on May 8, 2023 7:02:33 GMT -8
I removed video link except for Bronsons post as we only need it in 1 post.
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Post by Bronson on May 8, 2023 7:07:16 GMT -8
The word Jesus uses in John 6:44 is the word helkō, which can mean either “draw / attract” (like a magnet) or “drag.” No. There are Greek words for DRAG with overwhelming force. helkō is not one of them. Which is what is being implied in the conversation. You can "drag" most anything that is doesn't resist. Resistance is the "KEY" here to the conversation. Check out ἀποσπάω and σύρω Don't believe everything you read. You'll find σύρω in John 21:8. Acts 14:19. Pay close attention to what it says. You will find that the John 6:44 doesn't say what many hyper Calvinist claim it says. Thats my point and thanks for the advice. |
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Post by Redeemed on May 8, 2023 7:48:50 GMT -8
The word Jesus uses in John 6:44 is the word helkō, which can mean either “draw / attract” (like a magnet) or “drag.” Here is the major problem with Calvinism as I know since I was one who taught it for over 4 decades. They isolate passages and remove them from the greater context in a passage, book, author, the whole of scripture. In the same book a few chapters later Jesus uses the same Greek work helko and says the following: John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” And we know that everyone is not saved. John 6:44 cannot be used apart from faith. Only those who are drawn and believe will be those who are raised on the last day. We know that not all will believe who are drawn. The Holy Spirit convicts many of their sins yet they are never saved. In both John 6 and 12 the surrounding verses in both 6:44 and 12:32 Jesus talks about faith in Him. It’s really ironic in discussing these passages with a Calvinist they throw out the Solas. Sola Fide and Sola Christos. As if to say drawing saves anyone apart from faith in Christ. PS and don't get me started with their beliefs on regeneration lol. . They must force that into John 6 as well. hope this helps !!! You mean like... Evangelicals say that one must believe in Jesus in order to be born again, Calvinists say that one must be born again in order to believe. While most Calvinists say that regeneration and faith occur almost simultaneously, they all say that regeneration must precede faith since they do not believe that spiritually dead people can believe. So in Calvinism, regeneration precedes faith; the offer of salvation is only intended for the elect; and no one has the ability to accept Christ of his own free will. John 6:35 contradicts Calvinism on total depravity. |
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Post by duncan on May 8, 2023 10:16:02 GMT -8
You're not a calvinist? who around here is? is there any calvinists here? mark and josh and a few others are Calvinists and several of us here were at one time. Were at one time? Lol. sorry don't mean to laugh. Almost sounds like something to avoid? |
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Post by duncan on May 8, 2023 10:33:33 GMT -8
I look forward to speaking to mark and josh about calvinism.
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. They must force that into John 6 as well. 
