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Post by Truther on Jun 1, 2023 6:11:37 GMT -8
God is a Spirit, not a form, per Jesus' description of God in John 4:24.
Post Apostolic commentators made up the "God form" whopper.
It has snowballed ever since.
Nobody believes Jesus' description of God anymore, since the commentators came along.
That is the power of commentary.
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Post by Obadiah on Jun 1, 2023 6:48:46 GMT -8
God is a Spirit, not a form, per Jesus' description of God in John 4:24. Post Apostolic commentators made up the "God form" whopper. It has snowballed ever since. Nobody believes Jesus' description of God anymore, since the commentators came along. That is the power of commentary. Excellent topic I'll have to do some studying on this today. The first three things that come to my mind are: 1. In the Garden of Eden when God walked with Adam do you think He had a form? 2. When God spoke to Moses in the form of a burning bush, does that count? "for our God is a consuming fire" is a quotation from Deuteronomy 4:24 And I realize the scriptures talking about an action of God not his appearance. 3. Paul says in Colossians 1:15 that Jesus is the “image of the invisible God.” The word for “image” is eikōn, which means “representation” or “likeness.” Do you think that could be considered a form?
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Post by civic on Jun 1, 2023 7:09:35 GMT -8
The million dollar question is who did Adam see when God walked with him in the garden , or Abraham , or Jacob wrestle with or who appeared to men in the OT who is identified as YHWH ?
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Ozias
Full Member
Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you
Posts: 100
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Post by Ozias on Jun 1, 2023 7:49:15 GMT -8
The million dollar question is who did Adam see when God walked with him in the garden , or Abraham , or Jacob wrestle with or who appeared to men in the OT who is identified as YHWH ? That would be Jesus Pre-incarnation. To me what's is more important is not what God looks like but knowing who God is, His character and His nature, and that can be discovered through learning about His attributes. One way to think about God’s attributes is by distinguishing between the attributes that belong only to God and the attributes that we also share with him—we share these attributes with God because he made us in his image. Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the father John 12:45. I don't believe Jesus was talking about his physical appearance but more along the lines of the attributes that he shares with his father. And we also are image bearers. We are being transformed into His image from glory to glory. As Believers we are to develop these attributes as far as humanly possible in this fallen world we live in.
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Post by Truther on Jun 1, 2023 12:20:01 GMT -8
The million dollar question is who did Adam see when God walked with him in the garden , or Abraham , or Jacob wrestle with or who appeared to men in the OT who is identified as YHWH ? I will put this out there to debate. I think it was the MAN, Christ Jesus, which always existed per the mind and will of God, which is timeless reality. Jesus was crucified before the world began per Rev 13:8. God was in His son, the man Christ Jesus from eternity, creating the world and visiting man through him. He still visits man through Jesus today. God will light up heaven THROUGH Jesus per Rev 21. Everything is done between man and God THROUGH the man Christ Jesus(the biological son of God).
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Post by Truther on Jun 1, 2023 12:24:00 GMT -8
The man that Adam was created in God's image(body, soul and spirit) was Jesus' body soul and spirit(Rom 5:14).
The man(God in Christ) that visited Abraham and Adam was the man Christ Jesus.
The 4th man in the fire was the man Christ Jesus.
The man Christ Jesus was truly preeminent over everything.
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Post by Truther on Jun 1, 2023 12:34:13 GMT -8
By saying Jesus is only a "flesh part" of God is robbing him of his identity.
It is spiritual identity theft.
He was an individual person, not a flesh part of God.
His Father made him via the egg of a woman, biologically.
He was literally a son of a Dad and mom.
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Post by Redeemed on Jun 1, 2023 13:24:21 GMT -8
The million dollar question is who did Adam see when God walked with him in the garden , or Abraham , or Jacob wrestle with or who appeared to men in the OT who is identified as YHWH ? I will put this out there to debate. I think it was the MAN, Christ Jesus, which always existed per the mind and will of God, which is timeless reality. Jesus was crucified before the world began per Rev 13:8. God was in His son, the man Christ Jesus from eternity, creating the world and visiting man through him. He still visits man through Jesus today. God will light up heaven THROUGH Jesus per Rev 21. Everything is done between man and God THROUGH the man Christ Jesus(the biological son of God). Interesting concept and I will give it a shot as far as discussing it goes. God definitely knew that Jesus would come in a bodily form because he prophesized it in the garden when he cursed the snake. I don't think that Jesus was truly God and truly man until after the Immaculate Conception. Remember he emptied himself when he became a man. I think Jesus is seated on the throne at the right hand of God today and will be until his return. The active member of the trinity that is involved in the world today is the Holy Spirit. And yes Jesus is definitely "The Light" that will light up heaven. I found this to be very helpful: We find something similar in 1 Peter chapter 1: “[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, [21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.” Long before Adam was created and placed on the Earth, long before he sinned in the Garden of Eden, long before Calvary’s crosswork was ever accomplished to undo the damage of sin, that crosswork had already occurred in the mind of the triune Godhead. Jesus Christ’s destiny was predetermined long before He ever became a man, and long before there ever was a creation. Nothing in His earthly life occurred fortuitously; even His miraculous birth and graphic death were in the Godhead’s eternal plan! “Lo, I come to do thy will,” Messiah Jesus, quoting Psalm 40, told His Father at His incarnation (Hebrews 10:7-9). If you read verses 10-22 of Hebrews chapter 10, you will see the cross!! From "HOW WAS JESUS “THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD?” >>
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Post by Truther on Jun 1, 2023 13:42:25 GMT -8
I will put this out there to debate. I think it was the MAN, Christ Jesus, which always existed per the mind and will of God, which is timeless reality. Jesus was crucified before the world began per Rev 13:8. God was in His son, the man Christ Jesus from eternity, creating the world and visiting man through him. He still visits man through Jesus today. God will light up heaven THROUGH Jesus per Rev 21. Everything is done between man and God THROUGH the man Christ Jesus(the biological son of God). Interesting concept and I will give it a shot as far as discussing it goes. God definitely knew that Jesus would come in a bodily form because he prophesized it in the garden when he cursed the snake. I don't think that Jesus was truly God and truly man until after the Immaculate Conception. Remember he emptied himself when he became a man. I think Jesus is seated on the throne at the right hand of God today and will be until his return. The active member of the trinity that is involved in the world today is the Holy Spirit. And yes Jesus is definitely "The Light" that will light up heaven. I found this to be very helpful: We find something similar in 1 Peter chapter 1: “[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, [21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.” Long before Adam was created and placed on the Earth, long before he sinned in the Garden of Eden, long before Calvary’s crosswork was ever accomplished to undo the damage of sin, that crosswork had already occurred in the mind of the triune Godhead. Jesus Christ’s destiny was predetermined long before He ever became a man, and long before there ever was a creation. Nothing in His earthly life occurred fortuitously; even His miraculous birth and graphic death were in the Godhead’s eternal plan! “Lo, I come to do thy will,” Messiah Jesus, quoting Psalm 40, told His Father at His incarnation (Hebrews 10:7-9). If you read verses 10-22 of Hebrews chapter 10, you will see the cross!! From "HOW WAS JESUS “THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD?” >>The man Christ Jesus had to be a real man to be ordained before creation.(God did not ordain God). My thought is Jesus was made (his)God by default because his God indwells him, bodily. His God always was inside Jesus, which Christendom refuses to admit. Rather, they tweak it to mean something else. Like Trins teach the 2nd person took on flesh. Oneness teaches that the lone God took on flesh. The Bible explicitely teaches that God indwelled someone elses flesh. That someone else was the human son of God and Mary.
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Post by Redeemed on Jun 1, 2023 14:24:36 GMT -8
Your saying "The Bible explicitly teaches that God indwelled someone else's flesh" just doesn't sound right.
Luke 1:35 And answering the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the Power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: on account of which also the Holy One to be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Let's take a look at what overshadow means.
Overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. ἐπισκιάζω (to overshadow; envelope; hover over by presence) is a Greek verb used relatively few times in the Bible, and every time (with one exception) it refers to the direct presence of, or being surrounded by, God's glory.
So on account of this overshadowing Of God's Glory We find the cause of The Holy One being conceived. Jesus had a natural birth after a nine-month pregnancy which was witnessed by many.
Jesus grew from an infant into manhood, He didn't just show up one day.
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Post by Truther on Jun 1, 2023 17:47:24 GMT -8
Your saying "The Bible explicitly teaches that God indwelled someone else's flesh" just doesn't sound right. Luke 1:35 And answering the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the Power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: on account of which also the Holy One to be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Let's take a look at what overshadow means. Overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. ἐπισκιάζω (to overshadow; envelope; hover over by presence) is a Greek verb used relatively few times in the Bible, and every time (with one exception) it refers to the direct presence of, or being surrounded by, God's glory. So on account of this overshadowing Of God's Glory We find the cause of The Holy One being conceived. Jesus had a natural birth after a nine-month pregnancy which was witnessed by many. Jesus grew from an infant into manhood, He didn't just show up one day. Skip the modern Greek redefinitions. This is the Bible.... 19 To wit, that God was in(inside) Christ, reconciling the world unto himself(God),.... Correct? Also... 9 For in(inside) him(Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Correct? Also..... 10 .....the Father in(inside) me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in(inside) me, he .... Correct? This is the theme of the NT. God inside Jesus. The incarnationists removed God from inside Jesus. They have God as Jesus. Someone sold us a whopper.
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Post by Truther on Jun 1, 2023 17:51:52 GMT -8
Another scripture that Christendom frowns at....
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
They think it can also say this....
24 I am both flesh and a Spirit: and they that worship ME AS GOD must worship ME AS GOD in spirit and in truth.
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Post by civic on Jun 2, 2023 5:01:14 GMT -8
Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Timothy 1:17 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:13-16 I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
1 John 4:12 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen
1 Timothy 6:15-16 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen
Jesus said the following about God the Father !
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
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Post by Aeliana on Jun 2, 2023 5:07:37 GMT -8
Another scripture that Christendom frowns at.... 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. They think it can also say this.... 24 I am both flesh and a Spirit: and they that worship ME AS GOD must worship ME AS GOD in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 reads “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” We know worshipping God in truth would mean worshipping God according to his word, because John 17:17 says “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” God’s word defines for us what the truth is. But what does it mean to worship God “in Spirit”? From the verse starting off with “God is a Spirit,” we know it must have something to do with worshipping God with our spirit. But the following three verses might shed some more light on just what it means … Josh 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. I Sam 12:24 Only fear the Lord, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you. II Chron 25:2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, but not with a perfect heart.
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Post by civic on Jun 2, 2023 5:09:21 GMT -8
The Eternal Son's Pre existence prior to His physical birth as a man
John 6:38-40 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?
John 1:15 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' "
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.
Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.
Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.
Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses. 30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice: 32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look. 33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.' 35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert. 37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.' 38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us. 39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).
The word universe in this scripture means Age. aion {ahee-ohn'} 1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
John 3:17 For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo} 1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed 2) to send away, dismiss 2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty 2b) to order one to depart, send off 2c) to drive away
To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means "one sent forth with orders".
Philippians 2:5-11 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place. A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began.
The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven. John 3:12-15 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. Ezekiel 8:1-3 1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there. 2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal. 3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.
This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV) Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means "anointed". So the anointed is the head of Man. God > Christ > Man > Woman
If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.
So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?
Colossians 1:15-16 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works. Proverbs 8:22-30 22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him. So from this verse we can see the following points. 1. Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works. 2. Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 3. Wisdom was given birth before creation. 4. Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation. Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:
1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV) but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV) It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:
• Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept. • Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept. • Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:
1 Corinthians 2:6-9 6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"
Ephesians 3:8-10 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God. Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.
Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!
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