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Post by atpollard on Jul 7, 2023 15:42:14 GMT -8
You aren't my wife; I'm not responsible to figure out your riddles. I don't like to guess. Can you at least try to come right out and say what you are trying to get across? Or is there some reason you think you are clever enough that those who can't figure out what you mean don't deserve to know? What are you doing, man? "Man not being is just a tad problematic." —Man not being what? Not existing? —What are you referring to by "man"? Mankind? I don't like you enough to bother to guess. If you want to be taken seriously, then speak plainly. Seemed simple enough to me. Are you part of the man cannot be club? “Drugs take away the dream from every child’s heart and replace it with a nightmare.” - Nancy Reagan |
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Post by civic on Jul 7, 2023 15:46:35 GMT -8
I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I am the LORD, who do all these things / Isaiah 45:7 That verse sure makes it sound like He is. I was wondering what some other posters here views on this may be. The verse employs poetic couplets … pairs of words that are opposites: * light and darkness * prosperity and disaster The LITERARY intent is to present two extremes that imply “and everything in between”. We see it in a LOT of other places in the Bible … Alpha and Omega … does that mean that Jesus is only at the beginning and the end, but not all the letters in between, or does it mean that Jesus is at the beginning and the end and everywhere in between? First and Last … Heaven and Earth … So for Isaiah 45:7, the POINT that is being made is “God is in control of EVERYTHING”. Job and the dealing with Satan illustrate that God does not cause evil, but God certainly sets boundaries that determine what evil may occur. “THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER”. If one wanted to be pedantic, God is the RESTRAINER of Evil rather than its creator. Romans 1 (starting at verse 18) illustrates this: over and over “God turned them over to …” (God allowed men to follow ever more evil desires that originated within those men that rejected God.) An illustration that always appealed to me was Joseph and his enslavement. God did not make his brothers hate him. God did not create the generational strife that started with children from multiple wives and multiple servants. The brothers wanted to KILL Joseph, but God restrained their evil. God permitted them to sell him into slavery. God arranged for Joseph to be transported to Egypt (because that served God’s plan and set into motion events that led to the Passover … without which WE would not have the Last Supper and the whole “Body and Blood” sacrament). At the end, Joseph proclaims “what you meant for evil, God meant for good”. At the end, what God PERMITTED (good and evil) resulted in their good (it healed the family) and God’s glory (Passover, Slavery, Deliverance, Lamb, Blood, … how much do we understand because Joseph went to Egypt and God sent Moses to deliver them out of Egypt?) It seems a small point to some, but an important point to me: Darkness is not always synonymous with EVIL and the opposite of “prosperity” is not EVIL … so the verse never says that God creates EVIL. agreed but most calvinists take it to mean evil in the normal way its perceived. |
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Post by Eleazar on Jul 7, 2023 16:16:56 GMT -8
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things. Is 45:7.
Some Christians use this text to prove that the God of the Old Testament was a different being from the God of the New. From there it's not hard to come up with the question: Is God the author of evil?
But there are a lot of texts that flatly declare that God is not, and could not be, the author of evil. For example, Deuteronomy 32:4 declares that “his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. [He is] a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” Similarly, Psalm 5:4 notes, “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil.” If we read the Bible in its total canonical setting, it would seem that God is without evil or any pretense of evil.
The text in question refers to physical evil. As does Lamentations 3:38, it contrasts prosperity and adversity. So the good is physical goodness and happiness, while the evil is physical distress, misfortune, calamity and natural evil, such as storms, earthquakes and other disasters.
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Post by atpollard on Jul 7, 2023 16:22:04 GMT -8
The verse employs poetic couplets … pairs of words that are opposites: * light and darkness * prosperity and disaster The LITERARY intent is to present two extremes that imply “and everything in between”. We see it in a LOT of other places in the Bible … Alpha and Omega … does that mean that Jesus is only at the beginning and the end, but not all the letters in between, or does it mean that Jesus is at the beginning and the end and everywhere in between? First and Last … Heaven and Earth … So for Isaiah 45:7, the POINT that is being made is “God is in control of EVERYTHING”. Job and the dealing with Satan illustrate that God does not cause evil, but God certainly sets boundaries that determine what evil may occur. “THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER”. If one wanted to be pedantic, God is the RESTRAINER of Evil rather than its creator. Romans 1 (starting at verse 18) illustrates this: over and over “God turned them over to …” (God allowed men to follow ever more evil desires that originated within those men that rejected God.) An illustration that always appealed to me was Joseph and his enslavement. God did not make his brothers hate him. God did not create the generational strife that started with children from multiple wives and multiple servants. The brothers wanted to KILL Joseph, but God restrained their evil. God permitted them to sell him into slavery. God arranged for Joseph to be transported to Egypt (because that served God’s plan and set into motion events that led to the Passover … without which WE would not have the Last Supper and the whole “Body and Blood” sacrament). At the end, Joseph proclaims “what you meant for evil, God meant for good”. At the end, what God PERMITTED (good and evil) resulted in their good (it healed the family) and God’s glory (Passover, Slavery, Deliverance, Lamb, Blood, … how much do we understand because Joseph went to Egypt and God sent Moses to deliver them out of Egypt?) It seems a small point to some, but an important point to me: Darkness is not always synonymous with EVIL and the opposite of “prosperity” is not EVIL … so the verse never says that God creates EVIL. agreed but most calvinists take it to mean evil in the normal way its perceived. I don’t know what a “most calvinists” even is, so let me ask this: Does EVIL even exist? I mean, is evil even a THING that God could have created IT? What is the unit of measure to quantify evil? How would you DEFINE IT so that I could identify evil if I encountered it? Here is a quick lesson from PHYSICS that might help illustrate my point. There is no such thing as DARKNESS. If you disagree, then what are the units of measurement for DARKNESS? Darkness is, by definition, the perceived absence of LIGHT. Light exists … it is comprised of Photons and it is measured in Lumens or Footcandles. Darkness does not exist. There is no “beam of darkness” to negate the “beam of light” from a flashlight. If we created a cave 100 miles in diameter located at the center of the earth where all outside light was blocked from entering, the vast cavern of “darkness” would be incapable of crushing the light from even a single match … because DARKNESS has no existence, no substance. Only LIGHT exists and darkness is an artificial (imaginary) construct that represents the relative LACK of Light. Heat and Cold are exactly the same. There is no such thing as COLD, there are no units of COLD. There is only HEAT and the perceived “less heat” down to an imaginary construct called “absolute zero” that does not exist. Here is a Bible quote to consider: “God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.” - 1 John 1:5 From what we know about LIGHT actually existing and DARKNESS being a theoretical construct representing the “lack of light”, applying that to the above quote suggests that EVIL is not a thing (it does not exist). Evil is an imaginary measure of the relative “lack of God”. The further from “like God” any action or being is, the more “evil” it is. The father from blindingly bright any “light” is, the more “darkness” it is. EVERYTHING (except God) is EVIL … only God is GOOD, PERFECT, GOD! Everything else is some percentage less than 100% like God … that gap is “evil”. Does God create EVIL? Does LIGHT create the Darkness? |
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Post by civic on Jul 7, 2023 16:41:09 GMT -8
Good points to ponder ! Do you believe satan is a real being who was once a perfect created angel that sinned and became fallen and corrupt ?
And until his rebellion evil did not exist ?
thanks !
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Post by dizerner2 on Jul 7, 2023 18:14:53 GMT -8
I am not convinced by this argument that evil is just the absence of a thing, and thus no real thing.
Firstly, darkness and cold are all something that is both definable and has a certain essence or substance; absolute nothing has no definition and no essence.
The only reason we don't use units of darkness or cold is just an arbitrary lexical decision, not some statement about ultimate reality, as both ways are the same spectrum.
I will define evil for you—evil is that which does not attribute to God what God deserves, or a state of something in which God is somehow displeased with because it violates God's standard of values.
Evil is in fact, not the absence of something, but rather the misappropriation and twisting and perversion of a thing.
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 4:45:23 GMT -8
I am not convinced by this argument that evil is just the absence of a thing, and thus no real thing. Firstly, darkness and cold are all something that is both definable and has a certain essence or substance; absolute nothing has no definition and no essence. The only reason we don't use units of darkness or cold is just an arbitrary lexical decision, not some statement about ultimate reality, as both ways are the same spectrum. I will define evil for you—evil is that which does not attribute to God what God deserves, or a state of something in which God is somehow displeased with because it violates God's standard of values. Evil is in fact, not the absence of something, but rather the misappropriation and twisting and perversion of a thing. I tend to agree with you and evil is personified in the work of satan. Much like Holiness, Righteousness, Love etc... is personified in the Person and work of Christ. God Incarnate
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Post by atpollard on Jul 8, 2023 7:15:14 GMT -8
I am not convinced by this argument that evil is just the absence of a thing, and thus no real thing. Firstly, darkness and cold are all something that is both definable and has a certain essence or substance; absolute nothing has no definition and no essence. The only reason we don't use units of darkness or cold is just an arbitrary lexical decision, not some statement about ultimate reality, as both ways are the same spectrum. I will define evil for you—evil is that which does not attribute to God what God deserves, or a state of something in which God is somehow displeased with because it violates God's standard of values. Evil is in fact, not the absence of something, but rather the misappropriation and twisting and perversion of a thing. I tend to agree with you and evil is personified in the work of satan. Much like Holiness, Righteousness, Love etc... is personified in the Person and work of Christ. God Incarnate
What you have described is not SOMETHING that God could create. How does God create the “does not do something” or “is not something”? See, YOU have defined evil as the lack, absence, void of GODLINESS (just as Darkness is the LACK of light and not a THING itself). Light is PHOTONS, God is a holy SPIRIT (metaphysical being set apart from us and not like us), darkness and evil are the lack of those things, not another thing that opposes them. |
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 7:18:35 GMT -8
I tend to agree with you and evil is personified in the work of satan. Much like Holiness, Righteousness, Love etc... is personified in the Person and work of Christ. God Incarnate
What you have described is not SOMETHING that God could create. How does God create the “does not do something” or “is not something”? See, YOU have defined evil as the lack, absence, void of GODLINESS (just as Darkness is the LACK of light and not a THING itself). Light is PHOTONS, God is a holy SPIRIT (metaphysical being set apart from us and not like us), darkness and evil are the lack of those things, not another thing that opposes them. I 100% agree that evil was not created but is a result of sin and the fall. Its the opposite of everything God is in His character/nature. Would you also agree ? Thanks ! |
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Post by Overjoyed on Jul 8, 2023 8:06:30 GMT -8
agreed but most calvinists take it to mean evil in the normal way its perceived. I don’t know what a “most calvinists” even is, so let me ask this: Does EVIL even exist? I mean, is evil even a THING that God could have created IT? What is the unit of measure to quantify evil? How would you DEFINE IT so that I could identify evil if I encountered it? Here is a quick lesson from PHYSICS that might help illustrate my point. There is no such thing as DARKNESS. If you disagree, then what are the units of measurement for DARKNESS? Darkness is, by definition, the perceived absence of LIGHT. Light exists … it is comprised of Photons and it is measured in Lumens or Footcandles. Darkness does not exist. There is no “beam of darkness” to negate the “beam of light” from a flashlight. If we created a cave 100 miles in diameter located at the center of the earth where all outside light was blocked from entering, the vast cavern of “darkness” would be incapable of crushing the light from even a single match … because DARKNESS has no existence, no substance. Only LIGHT exists and darkness is an artificial (imaginary) construct that represents the relative LACK of Light. Heat and Cold are exactly the same. There is no such thing as COLD, there are no units of COLD. There is only HEAT and the perceived “less heat” down to an imaginary construct called “absolute zero” that does not exist. Here is a Bible quote to consider: “God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.” - 1 John 1:5 From what we know about LIGHT actually existing and DARKNESS being a theoretical construct representing the “lack of light”, applying that to the above quote suggests that EVIL is not a thing (it does not exist). Evil is an imaginary measure of the relative “lack of God”. The further from “like God” any action or being is, the more “evil” it is. The father from blindingly bright any “light” is, the more “darkness” it is. EVERYTHING (except God) is EVIL … only God is GOOD, PERFECT, GOD! Everything else is some percentage less than 100% like God … that gap is “evil”. Does God create EVIL? Does LIGHT create the Darkness? I stand on the donut hole defense. Let me offer an illustration. What is a doughnut hole? You might be thinking those are those you know warm, sugary, soft things that we eat and they’re super good. But that’s not what I’m referring to. A doughnut hole is simply the place where there is no doughnut. It’s not a happy place, I don’t want to be there. Or how about this, what is a shadow? Well, it’s the place where there is no light. Or what is coldness? Well it’s the place where there is no heat. Notice each of these things is defined not by what they are but by what they are not. And so evil in the same way is not defined by what it is but by what it is not. It is the absence of good. Evil results when goodness is missing. "Do not let yourself be overcome by evil, but overcome (master) evil with good". Romans 12:21. So we can walk in the Darkness, or we can choose Jesus and walk in the light. I want to be in the light. Just give Me Jesus he is my light and my salvation. We put on the Breastplate of Righteousness! May it guard our hearts from evil so we will remain pure and holy, protected under the blood of Jesus Christ. |
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Post by dizerner2 on Jul 8, 2023 8:31:42 GMT -8
What is heat?
The place where there is no coldness.
It works both ways guys.
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Post by Redeemed on Jul 8, 2023 9:21:53 GMT -8
What is heat? The place where there is no coldness. It works both ways guys. Well yeah. That's the definition of what they are not. But they can change as in night and day. I prefer the free will defense. So how does the Free Will Defense work? What is relevant to the Free Will Defense is the idea of being free with respect to an action. If a person is free with respect to a given action, then he is free to perform that action and free to refrain from performing it; no antecedent conditions and/or causal laws determine that he will perform the action, or that he won’t. It is within his power, at the time in question, to take or perform the action and within his power to refrain from it. I have the free will to accept the free gift of salvation. |
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arial
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by arial on Jul 8, 2023 11:31:18 GMT -8
I am not convinced by this argument that evil is just the absence of a thing, and thus no real thing. Firstly, darkness and cold are all something that is both definable and has a certain essence or substance; absolute nothing has no definition and no essence. The only reason we don't use units of darkness or cold is just an arbitrary lexical decision, not some statement about ultimate reality, as both ways are the same spectrum. I will define evil for you—evil is that which does not attribute to God what God deserves, or a state of something in which God is somehow displeased with because it violates God's standard of values. Evil is in fact, not the absence of something, but rather the misappropriation and twisting and perversion of a thing. |
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arial
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by arial on Jul 8, 2023 11:32:34 GMT -8
I don't think evil is a creation at all. We live in a dimensional world. Evil is just the other side of the coin.
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Post by Bronson on Jul 8, 2023 12:31:37 GMT -8
I don't think evil is a creation at all. We live in a dimensional world. Evil is just the other side of the coin. Same here, But there is a need to be able to explain the existence of evil and where it comes from. The problem of evil is the atheist’s favorite objection to God. If God is good and all-powerful, how can He exist if He allows evil to continue? Though this sounds persuasive, it’s riddled with difficulties. Lets walk through the solutions to this challenge and explain why the problem of evil is not only a problem for theists, but also for atheists. Far from undermining God’s existence, the presence of evil turns out to be powerful evidence that God is real. Did God create evil? Well, Judeo-Christian theology teaches that God made all things. Now many people conclude then that if God made everything, then God made evil. And if God made evil then that would make God evil. But that thinking is based on a mistaken premise, that is, it presumes that evil is a thing. So let me clarify. Evil is something but it’s not some thing. Now you’re probably thinking well it doesn’t, how does that clarify anything, right? Well here’s what I mean by that. Evil is something but it’s not a thing. It’s not stuff. It’s not made up of atoms. It’s not made up of molecules. It’s not made up of matter, right? It’s not some cosmic goo that contaminates things. It’s not the lint that gets caught in your bellybutton. You can’t buy it at a store. You can’t put in your pocket. You can’t flick it at a friend, right? Now, as I said, although evil is not a thing, it is something and here’s what I mean by that. Evil is a privation of good. It is the absence of good. I like Overjoyed Post: What is a doughnut hole? |
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