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Post by Bronson on Jul 8, 2023 12:53:48 GMT -8
I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I am the LORD, who do all these things / Isaiah 45:7 That verse sure makes it sound like He is. I was wondering what some other posters here views on this may be. A lot of texts flat-out declare that God is not, and could not be, the author of evil. Like, Deuteronomy 32:4 declares that “his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. [He is] a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” And Psalm 5:4 notes, “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil.” So as we read the deeper into Bible it would seem that God is without evil or any pretense of evil. I learned as I was studying this out that Isaiah 45:7 refers to physical evil. As does Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?", this verse contrasts prosperity and adversity. So the good is physical goodness and happiness, while the evil is physical distress, misfortune, calamity and natural evil, such as storms, earthquakes and other disasters. Even though a lot of the physical evil in the world often comes through the hand of wicked men and women, ultimately God permits it. Like we see in Genesis 50:20 "As for you, what you intended against me for evil, God intended for good, in order to accomplish a day like this— to preserve the lives of many people". If the evil of the Holocaust had not happened, then the miracle of the Jewish people’s return to Israel in 1948 would not have happened. What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. Christianity has more than answered the problem of the presence of evil (that's the message of the cross) and the problem of the outcome of evil (for Christ’s resurrection demonstrates that God can beat out even the last enemy and greatest evil, death itself). But Christianity’s most difficult question is the origin of evil. Why did God ever allow “this evil stuff” in the first place? To me this is the most interesting question to try to answer on this topic. Next question is as we look around the world today why is there so much evil? It's in the Bible.This is where we get the term theodicy. In its simplest form the problem is this: God is omnipotent; God is wholly good; yet evil exists. There seems to be some contradiction between these three propositions, so that if any two of them were true the third would be false. But at the same time all three are essential parts of most theological positions; the theologian, it seems, at once must adhere and cannot consistently adhere to all three. Philosophers such as John Stuart Mill have argued that the existence of evil demonstrates that God is either not omnipotent or not good and loving—the reasoning being that if evil exists apart from the sovereign power of God, then by resistless logic, God cannot be deemed omnipotent. On the other hand, if God does have the power to prevent evil but fails to do it, then this would reflect upon His character, indicating that He is neither good nor loving. Because of the persistence of this problem, the church has seen countless attempts at what is called theodicy. |
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Post by atpollard on Jul 8, 2023 13:06:25 GMT -8
What is heat? The place where there is no coldness. It works both ways guys. What is Heat? Consider a very hot mug of coffee on the countertop of your kitchen. For discussion purposes, we will say that the cup of coffee has a temperature of 80°C and that the surroundings (countertop, air in the kitchen, etc.) has a temperature of 26°C. What do you suppose will happen in this situation? I suspect that you know that the cup of coffee will gradually cool down over time. At 80°C, you wouldn't dare drink the coffee. Even the coffee mug will likely be too hot to touch. But over time, both the coffee mug and the coffee will cool down. Soon it will be at a drinkable temperature. And if you resist the temptation to drink the coffee, it will eventually reach room temperature. The coffee cools from 80°C to about 26°C. So what is happening over the course of time to cause the coffee to cool down? The answer to this question can be both macroscopic and particulate in nature. On the macroscopic level, we would say that the coffee and the mug are transferring heat to the surroundings. This transfer of heat occurs from the hot coffee and hot mug to the surrounding air. The fact that the coffee lowers its temperature is a sign that the average kinetic energy of its particles is decreasing. The coffee is losing energy. The mug is also lowering its temperature; the average kinetic energy of its particles is also decreasing. The mug is also losing energy. The energy that is lost by the coffee and the mug is being transferred to the colder surroundings. We refer to this transfer of energy from the coffee and the mug to the surrounding air and countertop as heat. In this sense, heat is simply the transfer of energy from a hot object to a colder object. Now let's consider a different scenario - that of a cold can of pop placed on the same kitchen counter. For discussion purposes, we will say that the pop and the can which contains it has a temperature of 5°C and that the surroundings (countertop, air in the kitchen, etc.) has a temperature of 26°C. What will happen to the cold can of pop over the course of time? Once more, I suspect that you know the answer. The cold pop and the container will both warm up to room temperature. But what is happening to cause these colder-than-room-temperature objects to increase their temperature? Is the cold escaping from the pop and its container? No! There is no such thing as the cold escaping or leaking. Rather, our explanation is very similar to the explanation used to explain why the coffee cools down. There is a heat transfer. www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/thermalP/u18l1d.cfm |
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Post by atpollard on Jul 8, 2023 14:05:38 GMT -8
My Question is: Why Does God Permit Evil? This is where we get the term theodicy. In its simplest form the problem is this: God is omnipotent; God is wholly good; yet evil exists. There seems to be some contradiction between these three propositions, so that if any two of them were true the third would be false. But at the same time all three are essential parts of most theological positions; the theologian, it seems, at once must adhere and cannot consistently adhere to all three. Philosophers such as John Stuart Mill have argued that the existence of evil demonstrates that God is either not omnipotent or not good and loving—the reasoning being that if evil exists apart from the sovereign power of God, then by resistless logic, God cannot be deemed omnipotent. On the other hand, if God does have the power to prevent evil but fails to do it, then this would reflect upon His character, indicating that He is neither good nor loving. Because of the persistence of this problem, the church has seen countless attempts at what is called theodicy. We (human beings) are incapable of the omniscience to determine what truly is evil. First a human example from life: We took our daughter to the doctor and held her down screaming as the infection in her ear was treated by a doctor. From her perspective, being held down and subjected to pain by a stranger by the people that are supposed to love and protect you is almost the very DEFINITION of evil. As her parents, we knew the alternative was that she would go deaf. No amount of explaining would have enables a two-year-old to understand, let alone AGREE that being held down and hurt was GOOD rather than EVIL. Second, an example from Scripture: Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt. 100% EVIL right? Well, at the end of the story, Joseph proclaims “you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good”. BEFORE, the family was so broken and dysfunctional (from children from two mothers and two servants all living in a state of constant competition for the love of Jacob). AFTER, the family was healed with one brother pledging his life for the safety of the son of “that other woman” they had wanted to kill the children of. WITHOUT Joseph in Egypt, millions starve. WITH Joseph in Egypt, millions are fed through a 7 year drought. Which of us could look at Joseph being sold into slavery and see the GOOD hidden behind the EVIL at that early moment? |
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 15:27:33 GMT -8
My Question is: Why Does God Permit Evil? This is where we get the term theodicy. In its simplest form the problem is this: God is omnipotent; God is wholly good; yet evil exists. There seems to be some contradiction between these three propositions, so that if any two of them were true the third would be false. But at the same time all three are essential parts of most theological positions; the theologian, it seems, at once must adhere and cannot consistently adhere to all three. Philosophers such as John Stuart Mill have argued that the existence of evil demonstrates that God is either not omnipotent or not good and loving—the reasoning being that if evil exists apart from the sovereign power of God, then by resistless logic, God cannot be deemed omnipotent. On the other hand, if God does have the power to prevent evil but fails to do it, then this would reflect upon His character, indicating that He is neither good nor loving. Because of the persistence of this problem, the church has seen countless attempts at what is called theodicy. We (human beings) are incapable of the omniscience to determine what truly is evil. First a human example from life: We took our daughter to the doctor and held her down screaming as the infection in her ear was treated by a doctor. From her perspective, being held down and subjected to pain by a stranger by the people that are supposed to love and protect you is almost the very DEFINITION of evil. As her parents, we knew the alternative was that she would go deaf. No amount of explaining would have enables a two-year-old to understand, let alone AGREE that being held down and hurt was GOOD rather than EVIL. Second, an example from Scripture: Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt. 100% EVIL right? Well, at the end of the story, Joseph proclaims “you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good”. BEFORE, the family was so broken and dysfunctional (from children from two mothers and two servants all living in a state of constant competition for the love of Jacob). AFTER, the family was healed with one brother pledging his life for the safety of the son of “that other woman” they had wanted to kill the children of. WITHOUT Joseph in Egypt, millions starve. WITH Joseph in Egypt, millions are fed through a 7 year drought. Which of us could look at Joseph being sold into slavery and see the GOOD hidden behind the EVIL at that early moment? Two good illustrations 👍🏼 |
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arial
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Post by arial on Jul 8, 2023 16:06:45 GMT -8
I don't think evil is a creation at all. We live in a dimensional world. Evil is just the other side of the coin. Same here, But there is a need to be able to explain the existence of evil and where it comes from. The problem of evil is the atheist’s favorite objection to God. If God is good and all-powerful, how can He exist if He allows evil to continue? Though this sounds persuasive, it’s riddled with difficulties. Lets walk through the solutions to this challenge and explain why the problem of evil is not only a problem for theists, but also for atheists. Far from undermining God’s existence, the presence of evil turns out to be powerful evidence that God is real. Did God create evil? Well, Judeo-Christian theology teaches that God made all things. Now many people conclude then that if God made everything, then God made evil. And if God made evil then that would make God evil. But that thinking is based on a mistaken premise, that is, it presumes that evil is a thing. So let me clarify. Evil is something but it’s not some thing. Now you’re probably thinking well it doesn’t, how does that clarify anything, right? Well here’s what I mean by that. Evil is something but it’s not a thing. It’s not stuff. It’s not made up of atoms. It’s not made up of molecules. It’s not made up of matter, right? It’s not some cosmic goo that contaminates things. It’s not the lint that gets caught in your bellybutton. You can’t buy it at a store. You can’t put in your pocket. You can’t flick it at a friend, right? Now, as I said, although evil is not a thing, it is something and here’s what I mean by that. Evil is a privation of good. It is the absence of good. I like Overjoyed Post: What is a doughnut hole? |
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arial
Junior Member
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Post by arial on Jul 8, 2023 16:26:59 GMT -8
Agree.
There is no up unless there is a down. No back unless there is a front. No determining of what is good unless there is a contrast. Mankind can rebel against what is good and evil results.Satan can rebell and challenge the Most High, and evil results. But as you say, evil is not a thing and as Overjoyed says, it is the goodness missing. And there may be a clue in there as to why God created Adam and Eve and put the tempter in the Garden. I have a theory that can never be called anything more than that and I only see it as possible. But this may not be the place to get into that.
As to the atheist argument it leaves out the possibility that there is more we don't see than what we do see. As well, that there are things beyond what is possible for the human mind, finite as it is, to know or explain. We grasp things by comparison, describe things by comparison. What exists outside of our finite world we cannot grasp because our mind can't go there. God is the first of these and the cause of all of those "things" that are undiscoverable so to speak. We can know about Him and much else of this other realm only because He tells us. And even them, much must rest on faith but not a faith that is blind.
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TedT
Junior Member
...gruntled.
Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Jul 9, 2023 16:31:28 GMT -8
yesterday at 1:53pm Bronson said:
My Question is: Why Does God Permit Evil?
ImCo::
The nature of predestination...(PCE):
Once upon a time, the three Persons who shared the unique attributes of Godliness, who called their Unity YHWH, decided to increase the amount of love They shared by creating others who could share with Them Their loving nature (or image) and so increase the amount of love in existence.
But They realized only a truly free will choice to love would enable the created person to become a real loving person.
Creating a person who is merely a tape recorder saying, "I love you, I love you," is obviously inadequate. Causing such fear, awe or dread in a person so they say, ever so fondly, "I love you," is also inadequate to increase the amount of true love in existence.
Therefore They had to set up such a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own real choice. Such a choice would have to be a true free will choice uncoerced by anything at all.
Nothing in their created nature could force them to choose love or hate, good or evil.
Nothing in their experience could force them to choose love or hate, good or evil.
Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could force them to choose good or evil, love or hate.
In other words, they had to be completely and truly innocent.
It was also apparent that a choice to reject the call to becoming a loving person (in God's image) was to become totally estranged from the Will of God, and the reason for their creation, which is the definition of evil. God also knew that such evil children would never quit hating Him and His loving followers nor would they ever quit trying to corrupt or destroy them so He knew such a choice to become evil meant the evil child of God would have to be separated from the rest of creation for eternity; separated from the joys of God's love and His other children. This place of separation from the will and love of God is called hell.
Since a true free will choice was the most perfect and only real choice the created person could ever make, expressing his most inner nature, once chosen the choice could never be changed. For it to have any meaning at all, God had to respect this choice as sacrosanct and immutable.
The possibility of a true increase in the amount of real love in existence also meant the possibility of someone (or all) choosing to become evil (rejecting God's will for them) and so bringing evil into God's creation.
The other problem They faced was Their Glory. If They showed Themselves to Their creations in all Their glory, it would be a coercion upon these people to bow to these obviously superior beings and thus destroy their ability to truly love. So They chose in Their wisdom to hide Their glory and to look to be as one of us, the created beings, Their children.
Then They came to the question: if They knew that one of their children would in fact make a free will choice to reject their offer of love and thus become estranged from Them (evil) forever, would it not be better if the person was not created and so miss the sufferings of hell? Since this would result in the creation of only those who would choose to love Them, it in fact destroyed the possibility of true love being increased as the created child was so destined and the choice was empty and not a true free will choice at all.
This forced the necessity that in this one instance God must abrogate His omniscience and decide to not know the outcome of the true free will choice Their children would make.
Once all these decisions were in place, the three Godly spirits created the perfect number of innocent children and lived among them as they explored each other and the spirit place they were in.
Finally the perfect time came for God to start the process of increasing the amount of love in existence. First They announced that though They looked the same as everyone else, They were in fact Godly and so were worthy of being worshipped as Gods in a way none of the others could ever be. They also claimed to have created everyone else for the purpose of becoming loving beings and that that process would start with them bowing to the Three as God.
They explained the nature of a true free will choice and also the nature of of the consequences of the choice fixing their inner nature forever into the mold of their choice. Then the consequences of becoming evil were explored including the necessity of the separation called hell, and that the act of bowing to Them would save those who bowed from ever having to experience hell themselves.
Some enterprising spirits asked: "But what if we choose to bow to you as God to escape hell and then ignored you forever?"
God told them that once they bowed and became His 'obedient' children, no matter how far they might stray from His will into evil or how strongly they might reject His love, that because of their free will choice He could always return them to that choice and help them to become the holy, perfect, loving children that would increase the amount of love in existence.
In fact He promised to do all that was necessary to abrogate their sins and make them holy and acceptable to be in His holy presence.
And so the community of spirits pondered and discussed these revelations among themselves until they knew their inner heart's desire and then came the time of choice, the time of testing the spirits.
The vast majority chose to bow and to become loving spirits in God's image for whatever reason but a few rejected the Three, calling Them liars and boasters and claimed they themselves were the equal of the Three and so refused to bow, declaring that they too were worthy of worship and that the love they had already was as good as Godly love anytime.
God then asked the obedient children to "come out from among" the evil children explaining that only once the obedient rejected the evil children in their heart could they become holy (untainted by sin) and learn how to love as God loved.
But some of the obedient children at this time chose to rebel against this call to reject the evil children, claiming a real love for them, that they were not all that bad etc, thus falling into sin themselves and becoming sinners outside the will but not the love of God.
God again called all the remaining obedient to come apart from the fallen children who had previously bowed but some refused this call and fell themselves into becoming sinners and so it was repeated until every spirit had finished choosing exactly where it stood in relation to the call / will of God and their relationship with the other children.
This process of a true free will choice separated the children into 2 main camps, those damned to hell and those destined to heaven. Those destined to heaven were also separated into those who never rejected God's will for them from those who sinned at the first call to come away from the damned, and those who sinned later by refusing to leave behind their heavenly but now sinful friends and so on and so on.
Once this process was complete, God in His Majesty revealed Himself in all His GLORY, proving to all the spirits the consequences of their choice of bowing to Him or of rejecting Him.
Then God created the Physical Universe as a place those destined to become holy and loving could live with the damned and learn the true nature of the never relenting evil in the hearts of the damned until they learned to be holy and to reject the evil of the damned.
And so the sinners Adam and Eve came to Earth to live in the garden to undergo the experience of living in sin until they could reject sin for holiness and become ready to learn how to love.
This process of perfecting His chosen children is still ongoing but if the signs are right, perhaps it is nearly over and we are in the last days of the purification of the last of those sinners who are predestined to Heaven.
This theology is called pre-conception existence theology (PCE) in that it supposes that we existed before our conception here on earth.
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Post by forgiven on Jul 9, 2023 17:13:37 GMT -8
I have noted peculiar opinions in the past, but the one really jumped out at me. The two concepts of the 144k and sinless perfection are both ominous ideas. Doug I don’t believe in sinless perfection in the carnal body we have now until we are restored to eden paradise at rapture . the 144k are not as the jw portray in their horrible theology… that sinless perfection is impossible in the fleshbody and would be what some who I disagreed with at carm believe THIS IS CORRECT |
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Post by civic on Jul 10, 2023 5:35:16 GMT -8
I don’t believe in sinless perfection in the carnal body we have now until we are restored to eden paradise at rapture . the 144k are not as the jw portray in their horrible theology… that sinless perfection is impossible in the fleshbody and would be what some who I disagreed with at carm believe THIS IS CORRECT Yes and I concur with the sinless perfection on this side of the grave, it will happen and become our reality in the Resurrection. And the JW's view of the 144k is incorrect. |
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e v e
Full Member
Posts: 214
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Post by e v e on Jul 10, 2023 18:15:03 GMT -8
I don’t believe in sinless perfection in the carnal body we have now until we are restored to eden paradise at rapture . the 144k are not as the jw portray in their horrible theology… that sinless perfection is impossible in the fleshbody and would be what some who I disagreed with at carm believe THIS IS CORRECT thank you... 💕💕🌷 |
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Post by dizerner2 on Jul 11, 2023 5:35:29 GMT -8
I would caution—there is a sense in which God is responsible for evil in that he is the authority which allowed its existence.
What you see, and you should have compassion on false doctrines even though they are wrongly motivated, for we all have these tendencies—is a desire to resolve the offense of something God has allowed in some way.
Where we differentiate is in primary and secondary desires, and a real distinction between them, such that we never make evil a primary desire for God, in that free will was the stronger desire in which evil could potentially exist.
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Post by civic on Jul 11, 2023 5:52:31 GMT -8
I would caution—there is a sense in which God is responsible for evil in that he is the authority which allowed its existence. What you see, and you should have compassion on false doctrines even though they are wrongly motivated, for we all have these tendencies—is a desire to resolve the offense of something God has allowed in some way. Where we differentiate is in primary and secondary desires, and a real distinction between them, such that we never make evil a primary desire for God, in that free will was the stronger desire in which evil could potentially exist. And I would caution you from what God has declared in His word about His nature and Good Character and attributing evil as His desire either primary or secondary.
Jeremiah 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I did not command nor speak of, nor did it ever enter My mind;
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
2 Kings 17:17
They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire and practiced divination and soothsaying. They devoted themselves to doing evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.
Psalm 106:37
They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.
Psalm 106:38
They shed innocent blood--the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
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Post by civic on Jul 11, 2023 6:06:29 GMT -8
A.W. Tozer rightly explains: “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.” – A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God C.S. Lewis gives a very plausible answer to the problem of evil: “God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can’t. If a thing is free to be good it’s also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they’ve got to be free. Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way (…) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it–it is worth paying.”
Adrian Rogers:
“God is the author of everything. God made everything perfect, and when God made man, God man His creature perfectly free. Free Will, then, man’s Free Will, is the origin of evil. God did not create evil. God created perfection, and God made man perfectly free, and freedom therefore gave rise to this evil. You see, this is what makes us moral creatures. Somebody says, ‘Why didn’t God just make us where we couldn’t sin?’ Well if God had made us where we couldn’t sin, He could have no more fellowship with me than I could have with that pulpit or that speaker. Because God made us moral creatures; love is the highest good; and God wants us to love Him. This is the first and great commandment: ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy strength, with all thy mind.’ Love is the highest good, but forced love is a contradiction in terms. Forced love is not love at all. In order to love, we must be free to love, to choose to love, and to choose to love, we have to be able to choose not to love. And so God gave us perfect choice. Adam chose in the Garden of Eden, and the sons of Adam after him, to sin, and that’s where the heart-ache, and the groan and the moan come from, as we’re going to see in a moment.” (Turning Hurts Into Hallelujahs: Romans 8:8-11)
“Secondary causes indeed don’t affect who ultimately performs the action. David, when approached by Nathan for murdering Uriah, didn’t protest, ‘I didn’t kill him! I just sent a letter to Joab who gave him a suicide mission and put him in the way of the enemy archers who killed him! It wasn’t me-it was the secondary causes!’ It doesn’t matter how many layers of causation there are, the mastermind behind the crime is always guilty.”
hope this helps !!!
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Post by civic on Jul 11, 2023 6:38:48 GMT -8
My Question is: Why Does God Permit Evil? This is where we get the term theodicy. In its simplest form the problem is this: God is omnipotent; God is wholly good; yet evil exists. There seems to be some contradiction between these three propositions, so that if any two of them were true the third would be false. But at the same time all three are essential parts of most theological positions; the theologian, it seems, at once must adhere and cannot consistently adhere to all three. Philosophers such as John Stuart Mill have argued that the existence of evil demonstrates that God is either not omnipotent or not good and loving—the reasoning being that if evil exists apart from the sovereign power of God, then by resistless logic, God cannot be deemed omnipotent. On the other hand, if God does have the power to prevent evil but fails to do it, then this would reflect upon His character, indicating that He is neither good nor loving. Because of the persistence of this problem, the church has seen countless attempts at what is called theodicy. We (human beings) are incapable of the omniscience to determine what truly is evil. First a human example from life: We took our daughter to the doctor and held her down screaming as the infection in her ear was treated by a doctor. From her perspective, being held down and subjected to pain by a stranger by the people that are supposed to love and protect you is almost the very DEFINITION of evil. As her parents, we knew the alternative was that she would go deaf. No amount of explaining would have enables a two-year-old to understand, let alone AGREE that being held down and hurt was GOOD rather than EVIL. Second, an example from Scripture: Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt. 100% EVIL right? Well, at the end of the story, Joseph proclaims “you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good”. BEFORE, the family was so broken and dysfunctional (from children from two mothers and two servants all living in a state of constant competition for the love of Jacob). AFTER, the family was healed with one brother pledging his life for the safety of the son of “that other woman” they had wanted to kill the children of. WITHOUT Joseph in Egypt, millions starve. WITH Joseph in Egypt, millions are fed through a 7 year drought. Which of us could look at Joseph being sold into slavery and see the GOOD hidden behind the EVIL at that early moment? What man meant for evil and harm- the brothers with Joseph God used for His good and turned their evil into God good. God did not ordain their wickedness but turned their evil intent and worked His good from their evil actions. |
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Post by civic on Jul 11, 2023 6:43:07 GMT -8
yesterday at 1:53pm Bronson said: My Question is: Why Does God Permit Evil? ImCo:: The nature of predestination...(PCE): Once upon a time, the three Persons who shared the unique attributes of Godliness, who called their Unity YHWH, decided to increase the amount of love They shared by creating others who could share with Them Their loving nature (or image) and so increase the amount of love in existence. But They realized only a truly free will choice to love would enable the created person to become a real loving person. Creating a person who is merely a tape recorder saying, "I love you, I love you," is obviously inadequate. Causing such fear, awe or dread in a person so they say, ever so fondly, "I love you," is also inadequate to increase the amount of true love in existence. Therefore They had to set up such a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own real choice. Such a choice would have to be a true free will choice uncoerced by anything at all. Nothing in their created nature could force them to choose love or hate, good or evil. Nothing in their experience could force them to choose love or hate, good or evil. Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could force them to choose good or evil, love or hate. In other words, they had to be completely and truly innocent. It was also apparent that a choice to reject the call to becoming a loving person (in God's image) was to become totally estranged from the Will of God, and the reason for their creation, which is the definition of evil. God also knew that such evil children would never quit hating Him and His loving followers nor would they ever quit trying to corrupt or destroy them so He knew such a choice to become evil meant the evil child of God would have to be separated from the rest of creation for eternity; separated from the joys of God's love and His other children. This place of separation from the will and love of God is called hell. Since a true free will choice was the most perfect and only real choice the created person could ever make, expressing his most inner nature, once chosen the choice could never be changed. For it to have any meaning at all, God had to respect this choice as sacrosanct and immutable. The possibility of a true increase in the amount of real love in existence also meant the possibility of someone (or all) choosing to become evil (rejecting God's will for them) and so bringing evil into God's creation. The other problem They faced was Their Glory. If They showed Themselves to Their creations in all Their glory, it would be a coercion upon these people to bow to these obviously superior beings and thus destroy their ability to truly love. So They chose in Their wisdom to hide Their glory and to look to be as one of us, the created beings, Their children. Then They came to the question: if They knew that one of their children would in fact make a free will choice to reject their offer of love and thus become estranged from Them (evil) forever, would it not be better if the person was not created and so miss the sufferings of hell? Since this would result in the creation of only those who would choose to love Them, it in fact destroyed the possibility of true love being increased as the created child was so destined and the choice was empty and not a true free will choice at all. This forced the necessity that in this one instance God must abrogate His omniscience and decide to not know the outcome of the true free will choice Their children would make. Once all these decisions were in place, the three Godly spirits created the perfect number of innocent children and lived among them as they explored each other and the spirit place they were in. Finally the perfect time came for God to start the process of increasing the amount of love in existence. First They announced that though They looked the same as everyone else, They were in fact Godly and so were worthy of being worshipped as Gods in a way none of the others could ever be. They also claimed to have created everyone else for the purpose of becoming loving beings and that that process would start with them bowing to the Three as God. They explained the nature of a true free will choice and also the nature of of the consequences of the choice fixing their inner nature forever into the mold of their choice. Then the consequences of becoming evil were explored including the necessity of the separation called hell, and that the act of bowing to Them would save those who bowed from ever having to experience hell themselves. Some enterprising spirits asked: "But what if we choose to bow to you as God to escape hell and then ignored you forever?" God told them that once they bowed and became His 'obedient' children, no matter how far they might stray from His will into evil or how strongly they might reject His love, that because of their free will choice He could always return them to that choice and help them to become the holy, perfect, loving children that would increase the amount of love in existence. In fact He promised to do all that was necessary to abrogate their sins and make them holy and acceptable to be in His holy presence. And so the community of spirits pondered and discussed these revelations among themselves until they knew their inner heart's desire and then came the time of choice, the time of testing the spirits. The vast majority chose to bow and to become loving spirits in God's image for whatever reason but a few rejected the Three, calling Them liars and boasters and claimed they themselves were the equal of the Three and so refused to bow, declaring that they too were worthy of worship and that the love they had already was as good as Godly love anytime. God then asked the obedient children to "come out from among" the evil children explaining that only once the obedient rejected the evil children in their heart could they become holy (untainted by sin) and learn how to love as God loved. But some of the obedient children at this time chose to rebel against this call to reject the evil children, claiming a real love for them, that they were not all that bad etc, thus falling into sin themselves and becoming sinners outside the will but not the love of God. God again called all the remaining obedient to come apart from the fallen children who had previously bowed but some refused this call and fell themselves into becoming sinners and so it was repeated until every spirit had finished choosing exactly where it stood in relation to the call / will of God and their relationship with the other children. This process of a true free will choice separated the children into 2 main camps, those damned to hell and those destined to heaven. Those destined to heaven were also separated into those who never rejected God's will for them from those who sinned at the first call to come away from the damned, and those who sinned later by refusing to leave behind their heavenly but now sinful friends and so on and so on. Once this process was complete, God in His Majesty revealed Himself in all His GLORY, proving to all the spirits the consequences of their choice of bowing to Him or of rejecting Him. Then God created the Physical Universe as a place those destined to become holy and loving could live with the damned and learn the true nature of the never relenting evil in the hearts of the damned until they learned to be holy and to reject the evil of the damned. And so the sinners Adam and Eve came to Earth to live in the garden to undergo the experience of living in sin until they could reject sin for holiness and become ready to learn how to love. This process of perfecting His chosen children is still ongoing but if the signs are right, perhaps it is nearly over and we are in the last days of the purification of the last of those sinners who are predestined to Heaven. This theology is called pre-conception existence theology (PCE) in that it supposes that we existed before our conception here on earth. Interesting concept. Are you saying we are like God in that we had no beginning like Jesus pre existence before He became a man as the 2nd Person of the Trinity. ?
is man eternal like God and uncreated ?
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