e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 6, 2022 17:37:35 GMT -8
This is not anywhere a rule that I am forced to reply to things that I feel were asked in a demanding or forceful way
each of us is free to respond to what we genuinely wish to, no ?
and demanding answers, for me, is not part of a genuine conversation
it reminds me of the principal in high school actually... grin..
I do not argue. btw. In forums such as carm and in this forum I dont consider it my job to have to reply, to have to cite, or to reply to every thing..
often I reply to what resonates for me... and as you can see...not only I do not cite
but do not often even punctuate or use caps. don't care. Not here to submit a term paper.
most here are quite versed in where things can be located and are often more
familiar with lines in their bibles than I am...
regardless... a cite is not needed when I am here to converse not to debate this is intentional...I do not see that Christ debated His followers and debate is a specialized form of communication.
Even with pharisees Christ replied and answered but did not debate. as I am here on a voluntary social basis.. and this is not an academic paper I need to submit for peer review as being in an academic sphere I really have no interest in 'working' here and giving list of cites. On carm that was a bit pointless... anyone could find someone to cite or some quote, even mistranslated , from scripture and use that to war with each other |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 6, 2022 17:50:52 GMT -8
If the mod would like to move that link I gave where I commented on mistranslation
and PSA to a different thread than where it is, that is fine...
I thought though that the context of what I was responding to
there fit what was being discussed..
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 6, 2022 17:53:24 GMT -8
If you are talking to me, I don't agree it's somehow "disrespectful" just to get a person to clarify what they believe.
I DO think it's disrespectful to call someone's attitude "ugly" when they were just making an inquiry.
So if you are correcting someone, it might be helpful to say exactly who and what you are correcting, unless you want to turn into CARM 2.0.
Thanks.
Jesus answered him, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?" (Jn. 18:23 NKJ)
I was just making a general statement and speaking to myself as well.
Just some personal background. I came alongside ever several years ago on CARM when she was being attacked by all sides on the forums. I got to know her over the years, I like her, she is well educated and she sees many things differently then I do but that is ok. My desire is just to have a friendly place where we have a diversity of poster and beliefs that we can share with one another and do it in a respectful manner.
For example you and I see Gods wrath differently and thats ok in my book. Its not going to make any difference with your salvation or mine and I think its ok to disagree. I'm not going to call you heretical and I hope this works both ways. The same goes with another area we differ on the kenosis. I'm not going to call you or anyone else who disagrees with me on that anything derogatory like I have done in the past. Those kinds of exchanges are unfruitful and I don't want this place to be that kind of environment. Some might think this is compromising my beliefs but that is not the case I'm just considering other peoples ideas as being important to them. And I think if we are open and honest we can all learn some things from each other and grow from it brother. Also I'm not for ecumenicalism either :)
hope this helps !!!
thank you for the remarks about carm..
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 6, 2022 17:54:28 GMT -8
Is this forum multi threading?
On carm they only had 1 level deep threads so I
am trying to learn how to post here still
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Post by TibiasDad on Aug 7, 2022 21:05:38 GMT -8
Sorry but the thread sections were messed up and I'm learning this forum so I am replying without quoting and only to part of what you said, here, so far I never said His souls 'do no evil' anywhere, and in fact it never occurred to methough since you brought it up... how could they 'do evil' which is not like mistakes but has a coloring of intent to it... Did the apostles do evil ? What do you mean by evil.. Of course I am hoping I am of the 144k... but yes , I sin even not wanting to..this body IS sin. If I said something like that, I would have been referring to the 144k once they are 'already in their resurrection bodies' and, with Christ, in paradise... how could anyone be free of evil in these corrupt type of fleshbodies ? Impossible... this realm we live in IS Death , just as God warned... these fleshbodies are ruled by the law of sin and death... Certainly I don't feel I'm intentionally sinning but I certainly see Im weak and helpless in this current prison earth Eve, With all due respect, you said: "our Lovely Sir of us His 144k does no evil.. ever never has…" In this you have directly stated "of us His 144k", which infers that you are a member of the 144k, and that those within the "us His 144k", "does no evil"! Now, the use of "does", indicates an action, a doing something, by these members of the 144k. Furthermore, they do "no" evil, which is an absolute statement of total abstenence from something. That something, is "evil", which is an adverb describing the "does" action of the 144k, in whom you included yourself as a member who absolutely abstains from these "evil" actions. And in all of this, you never explain what you meant by "of us His 144k does no evil.. ever never has…"! Again, and with all due respect an sincerity of motive, it is quite helpful and respectful of your readers to express yourself with proper grammar and syntax of the English language, including proper tenses, capitalization and citations when referencing a direct quote. This may not be a classroom assignment expression, but, at least as far as I am personally concerned, I begin to see no value in the meaning of a post and poster who cannot or will not construct a proper sentence. We may not be presenting a term paper, but neither are we in a freestyle poetry forum. I want to understand and respect your opinions, regardless of whether I agree with you or not, but I, at least, struggle with presentations such as you have offered above. Doug |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 7, 2022 21:34:39 GMT -8
Sorry but the thread sections were messed up and I'm learning this forum
so I am replying without quoting and only to part of what you said, here, so far
I never said His souls 'do no evil' anywhere, and in fact it never occurred to me
though since you brought it up...
how could they 'do evil' which is not like mistakes but has a coloring of intent to it...
Did the apostles do evil ?
What do you mean by evil..
Of course I am hoping I am of the 144k...
but yes , I sin even not wanting to.. this body IS sin.
If I said something like that, I would have been referring to the 144k once they are 'already
in their resurrection bodies' and, with Christ, in paradise...
how could anyone be free of evil in these corrupt type of fleshbodies ?
Impossible...
this realm we live in IS Death , just as God warned...
these fleshbodies are ruled by the law of sin and death...
Certainly I don't feel I'm intentionally sinning but I certainly see
Im weak and helpless in this current prison earth
Eve,
With all due respect, you said: "our Lovely Sir of us His 144k does no evil.. ever never has…" In this you have directly stated "of us His 144k", which infers that you are a member of the 144k, and that those within the "us His 144k", "does no evil"!
Now, the use of "does", indicates an action, a doing something, by these members of the 144k. Furthermore, they do "no" evil, which is an absolute statement of total abstenence from something. That something, is "evil", which is an adverb describing the "does" action of the 144k, in whom you included yourself as a member who absolutely abstains from these "evil" actions.
And in all of this, you never explain what you meant by "of us His 144k does no evil.. ever never has…"!
Again, and with all due respect an sincerity of motive, it is quite helpful and respectful of your readers to express yourself with proper grammar and syntax of the English language, including proper tenses, capitalization and citations when referencing a direct quote. This may not be a classroom assignment expression, but, at least as far as I am personally concerned, I begin to see in value in the meaning of a post and poster who cannot or will not construct a proper sentence. We may not be presenting a term paper, but neither are we in a freestyle poetry forum.
I want to understand and respect your opinions, regardless of whether I agree with you or not, but I, at least, struggle with presentations such as you have offered above.
Doug
yes I said that - I said He does no evil. He is God. Reread it carefully… verbs are singular referring to him. 144k are a plural and I simply used singular referring to Him…. ’God of us the 144k’ is who I refer to - God. He does no evil. It’s very late so i will reply again soon. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 8, 2022 13:55:36 GMT -8
I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I am the LORD, who do all these things / Isaiah 45:7 That verse sure makes it sound like He is. I was wondering what some other posters here views on this may be. A lot of texts flat-out declare that God is not, and could not be, the author of evil. Like, Deuteronomy 32:4 declares that “his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. [He is] a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” And Psalm 5:4 notes, “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil.” So as we read the deeper into Bible it would seem that God is without evil or any pretense of evil. I learned as I was studying this out that Isaiah 45:7 refers to physical evil. As does Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?", this verse contrasts prosperity and adversity. So the good is physical goodness and happiness, while the evil is physical distress, misfortune, calamity and natural evil, such as storms, earthquakes and other disasters. Even though a lot of the physical evil in the world often comes through the hand of wicked men and women, ultimately God permits it. Like we see in Genesis 50:20 "As for you, what you intended against me for evil, God intended for good, in order to accomplish a day like this— to preserve the lives of many people". If the evil of the Holocaust had not happened, then the miracle of the Jewish people’s return to Israel in 1948 would not have happened. What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. Christianity has more than answered the problem of the presence of evil (that's the message of the cross) and the problem of the outcome of evil (for Christ’s resurrection demonstrates that God can beat out even the last enemy and greatest evil, death itself). But Christianity’s most difficult question is the origin of evil. Why did God ever allow “this evil stuff” in the first place? To me this is the most interesting question to try to answer on this topic. Next question is as we look around the world today why is there so much evil? It's in the Bible. Only in Calvinism is God the author Calvinistic Pastor, Dr. John Piper, teaches: “God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child…” (Link)— Mark R. Talbot, “’All the Good That Is Ours in Christ’: Seeing God’s Gracious Hand in the Hurts Others Do to Us,” in John Piper and Justin Taylor (eds.), Suffering and the Sovereignty of God (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 31-77 (quote from p. 42). Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand. b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor, Quote may be found www.desiringgod.org/messages/all-the-good-that-is-ours-in-christ-seeing-gods-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-ushow foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” |
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 13:59:13 GMT -8
I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I am the LORD, who do all these things / Isaiah 45:7 That verse sure makes it sound like He is. I was wondering what some other posters here views on this may be. A lot of texts flat-out declare that God is not, and could not be, the author of evil. Like, Deuteronomy 32:4 declares that “his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. [He is] a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” And Psalm 5:4 notes, “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil.” So as we read the deeper into Bible it would seem that God is without evil or any pretense of evil. I learned as I was studying this out that Isaiah 45:7 refers to physical evil. As does Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?", this verse contrasts prosperity and adversity. So the good is physical goodness and happiness, while the evil is physical distress, misfortune, calamity and natural evil, such as storms, earthquakes and other disasters. Even though a lot of the physical evil in the world often comes through the hand of wicked men and women, ultimately God permits it. Like we see in Genesis 50:20 "As for you, what you intended against me for evil, God intended for good, in order to accomplish a day like this— to preserve the lives of many people". If the evil of the Holocaust had not happened, then the miracle of the Jewish people’s return to Israel in 1948 would not have happened. What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. Christianity has more than answered the problem of the presence of evil (that's the message of the cross) and the problem of the outcome of evil (for Christ’s resurrection demonstrates that God can beat out even the last enemy and greatest evil, death itself). But Christianity’s most difficult question is the origin of evil. Why did God ever allow “this evil stuff” in the first place? To me this is the most interesting question to try to answer on this topic. Next question is as we look around the world today why is there so much evil? It's in the Bible. Only in Calvinism is God the author Calvinistic Pastor, Dr. John Piper, teaches: “God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child…” (Link)— Mark R. Talbot, “’All the Good That Is Ours in Christ’: Seeing God’s Gracious Hand in the Hurts Others Do to Us,” in John Piper and Justin Taylor (eds.), Suffering and the Sovereignty of God (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 31-77 (quote from p. 42). Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand. b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor, Quote may be found www.desiringgod.org/messages/all-the-good-that-is-ours-in-christ-seeing-gods-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-ushow foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” Excellent Tom thanks for posting this brother ! |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 8, 2022 14:00:02 GMT -8
Are you, by this, implying that Christians cannot sin or that there are only 144 thousand believers? Doug thank you for asking me. no to both. both would be horrible. the darby rapture is completely off, many more than just the 144k will be in paradise with christ. also if i recall jw think that paradise will be on this earth… ? which is not true. resurrection and rapture happen at the same time 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. at the return of the lord |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 8, 2022 14:33:01 GMT -8
yes... rapture is the Change, which is same as resurrection of His 144k...
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 9, 2022 5:06:32 GMT -8
Only in Calvinism is God the author Calvinistic Pastor, Dr. John Piper, teaches: “God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child…” (Link)— Mark R. Talbot, “’All the Good That Is Ours in Christ’: Seeing God’s Gracious Hand in the Hurts Others Do to Us,” in John Piper and Justin Taylor (eds.), Suffering and the Sovereignty of God (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 31-77 (quote from p. 42). Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand. b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor, Quote may be found www.desiringgod.org/messages/all-the-good-that-is-ours-in-christ-seeing-gods-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-ushow foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” Excellent Tom thanks for posting this brother ! You are welcome as always |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 9, 2022 5:08:23 GMT -8
yes... rapture is the Change, which is same as resurrection of His 144k... Um resurrection and rapture are not the same though they occur at the same time Rapture concerns the living resurrection the dead |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 9, 2022 8:00:10 GMT -8
at the change when meeting Christ upon the clouds
the 144k will have their gorgeous transfiguration...
i didnt comment on other believers and the dead...
thank you
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 11:14:16 GMT -8
I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I am the LORD, who do all these things / Isaiah 45:7 That verse sure makes it sound like He is. I was wondering what some other posters here views on this may be. Isaiah 45:7 was stated in an already sinfully sin-filled world. In other words, in and an already sinfully sin-filled world God declares he creates evil. Isaiah 45:7 CANNOT be read to mean God created evil when He created creation because that would directly contradict what is stated in Genesis 1:31 where God examined everything He'd made in the first six days and declared it " very good." Not only would Genesis 1:31 and Isaiah 45:7 contradict one another but that contradiction would also contradict something specifically stated earlier in Isaiah = in Isaiah 5:20 God says, "Woe to those who call good evil and evil good." If God holds Himself to His own divine standards then He'd have to bring woe upon Himself. More importantly, he'd be a self-contradicting god who does not live up to his own standards and cannot be relied upon for honest and rational revelation. That god is not a God and he most certainly is not the righteous almighty Creator God of the Bible. But these self-contradictory readings of proof-texted scripture are what happens when context and whole scripture is neglected or ignored. Isaiah 45:7 can and should be best understood to mean God is sovereign even over sin in a sinfully sin-filled world. Neither sin nor its existence in any way compromises the sovereignty of the almighty Creator and He does with sin as He pleases. There is nothing in creation, even the corruption caused by sin, that He does not use for His purposes. All of creation serves His purposes and His purposes alone - even if there are creatures who delusionally think otherwise. God creating darkness in an already dark world is not in any way a compromise of his might or sovereignty, nor an indictment of His righteousness or character. |
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Post by civic on Aug 10, 2022 11:28:12 GMT -8
I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I am the LORD, who do all these things / Isaiah 45:7 That verse sure makes it sound like He is. I was wondering what some other posters here views on this may be. Isaiah 45:7 was stated in an already sinfully sin-filled world. In other words, in and an already sinfully sin-filled world God declares he creates evil. Isaiah 45:7 CANNOT be read to mean God created evil when He created creation because that would directly contradict what is stated in Genesis 1:31 where God examined everything He'd made in the first six days and declared it " very good." Not only would Genesis 1:31 and Isaiah 45:7 contradict one another but that contradiction would also contradict something specifically stated earlier in Isaiah = in Isaiah 5:20 God says, "Woe to those who call good evil and evil good." If God holds Himself to His own divine standards then He'd have to bring woe upon Himself. More importantly, he'd be a self-contradicting god who does not live up to his own standards and cannot be relied upon for honest and rational revelation. That god is not a God and he most certainly is not the righteous almighty Creator God of the Bible. But these self-contradictory readings of proof-texted scripture are what happens when context and whole scripture is neglected or ignored. Isaiah 45:7 can and should be best understood to mean God is sovereign even over sin in a sinfully sin-filled world. Neither sin nor its existence in any way compromises the sovereignty of the almighty Creator and He does with sin as He pleases. There is nothing in creation, even the corruption caused by sin, that He does not use for His purposes. All of creation serves His purposes and His purposes alone - even if there are creatures who delusionally think otherwise. God creating darkness in an already dark world is not in any way a compromise of his might or sovereignty, nor an indictment of His righteousness or character. Thanks for the insightful post Josh its spot on brother ! |
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