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Post by Obadiah on Aug 10, 2022 11:28:45 GMT -8
I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I am the LORD, who do all these things / Isaiah 45:7 That verse sure makes it sound like He is. I was wondering what some other posters here views on this may be. Isaiah 45:7 was stated in an already sinfully sin-filled world. In other words, in and an already sinfully sin-filled world God declares he creates evil. Isaiah 45:7 CANNOT be read to mean God created evil when He created creation because that would directly contradict what is stated in Genesis 1:31 where God examined everything He'd made in the first six days and declared it " very good." Not only would Genesis 1:31 and Isaiah 45:7 contradict one another but that contradiction would also contradict something specifically stated earlier in Isaiah = in Isaiah 5:20 God says, "Woe to those who call good evil and evil good." If God holds Himself to His own divine standards then He'd have to bring woe upon Himself. More importantly, he'd be a self-contradicting god who does not live up to his own standards and cannot be relied upon for honest and rational revelation. That god is not a God and he most certainly is not the righteous almighty Creator God of the Bible. But these self-contradictory readings of proof-texted scripture are what happens when context and whole scripture is neglected or ignored. Isaiah 45:7 can and should be best understood to mean God is sovereign even over sin in a sinfully sin-filled world. Neither sin nor its existence in any way compromises the sovereignty of the almighty Creator and He does with sin as He pleases. There is nothing in creation, even the corruption caused by sin, that He does not use for His purposes. All of creation serves His purposes and His purposes alone - even if there are creatures who delusionally think otherwise. God creating darkness in an already dark world is not in any way a compromise of his might or sovereignty, nor an indictment of His righteousness or character. I'm going with your post, I like it. Thanks for posting it. |
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TedT
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...gruntled.
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Post by TedT on Aug 11, 2022 16:20:32 GMT -8
What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. I accept this. I believe this. Wholeheartedly. But I have yet to find anyone else who believes this who can tell me how GOD can then create mankind in Adam's sin so that they are corrupt, disgustingly evil and subject to suffering and death even before birth let alone before some age of accountability, that is, before they can ever make a free will choice to be evil in HIS sight. |
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Post by civic on Aug 11, 2022 16:28:01 GMT -8
What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. I accept this. I believe this. Wholeheartedly. But I have yet to find anyone else who believes this who can tell me how GOD can then create mankind in Adam's sin so that they are corrupt, disgustingly evil and subject to suffering and death even before birth let alone before some age of accountability, that is, before they can ever make a free will choice to be evil in HIS sight. Welcome to the forum and my other alias online are Jesus is YHWH, Chalcedon and Christophany.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2022 16:35:27 GMT -8
What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. I accept this. I believe this. Wholeheartedly. But I have yet to find anyone else who believes this who can tell me how GOD can then create mankind in Adam's sin so that they are corrupt, disgustingly evil and subject to suffering and death even before birth let alone before some age of accountability, that is, before they can ever make a free will choice to be evil in HIS sight.
So your claim is that Original Sin is incompatible with a maximally good God?
If that is correct, the objection logically fails.
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Post by civic on Aug 11, 2022 16:38:47 GMT -8
What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. I accept this. I believe this. Wholeheartedly. But I have yet to find anyone else who believes this who can tell me how GOD can then create mankind in Adam's sin so that they are corrupt, disgustingly evil and subject to suffering and death even before birth let alone before some age of accountability, that is, before they can ever make a free will choice to be evil in HIS sight. When I was a former calvinist this is how I would answer your question with scripture.
Mans Depravity
1)Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9)
2)Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)Man loves darkness (John 3:19)
4)Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12)
5)Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6)
6)Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1)
7)Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3)
8)Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)
9)Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
10)Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
11)Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous (Isaiah 64:6)
12)Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law (Romans 8:7)
13)Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act (Romans 3:12)
14)Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin (Romans 14:23)
15)Man has not one single thing that is good in him (Romans 7:18)
16)Man is born condemned (John 3:18)
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 11, 2022 16:46:05 GMT -8
What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. I accept this. I believe this. Wholeheartedly. But I have yet to find anyone else who believes this who can tell me how GOD can then create mankind in Adam's sin so that they are corrupt, disgustingly evil and subject to suffering and death even before birth let alone before some age of accountability, that is, before they can ever make a free will choice to be evil in HIS sight. I never did get around to answering my own question from the OP: "Next question is as we look around the world today why is there so much evil?" Tomorrow I'll try to answer you post. But I do not believe infants and young children that die are lost. |
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Post by Redeemed on Aug 11, 2022 17:00:56 GMT -8
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e v e
Full Member
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Post by e v e on Aug 11, 2022 18:19:55 GMT -8
every soul is affected by adam
….he is why we are here in the sin realm (Death)…
imprisoned
on this earth God did not create
in these bodies God did not create.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 12, 2022 4:47:08 GMT -8
What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. I accept this. I believe this. Wholeheartedly. But I have yet to find anyone else who believes this who can tell me how GOD can then create mankind in Adam's sin so that they are corrupt, disgustingly evil and subject to suffering and death even before birth let alone before some age of accountability, that is, before they can ever make a free will choice to be evil in HIS sight. Thats a tough one to answer. I think it calls for a Indepth study. I just found this. The problem of evil traditionally has been understood to center on the alleged inconsistency of three propositions deemed central to theism. Those propositions are: 1) God is all-loving, 2) God is all-powerful, and 3) evil exists in our world. Critics claim that these three propositions as a set are self-contradictory. Hence, if any two are true, the third appears to be false. For example, if God really cares about us enough to remove the evil in our world, but evil still exists, then he must not have enough power to get rid of it. Read More: iwillnotfear287382650.wordpress.com/2022/08/12/problem-of-evil/There are lot of books and websites out there to help answer this age-old question. Here is a thought, it is logically possible that God, though all-powerful and all-knowing, has a good reason for allowing evil to exist. For instance, evil’s presence ensures the preservation of human free will. If we have genuine freedom, then we have the possibility of choosing to do evil rather than good. God is certainly powerful enough to prevent us from doing evil, but he would be taking away our free will by doing so. He cannot force us to always choose the good, because being made to choose the good would mean that we are not free. I have a friend whose life moto is "Love God and do good" And the Bible does tell us in Romans 12:21 “Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good.” God wants us to keep our minds set on things that come from His perfect nature, not the imperfect substitutes the world offers us. Stay focused on what He has in store for you and remember that He has already won the battle anyway. Philippians 4:8 says…“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.” When I Think Of The Goodness Of Jesus And What He Has Done For Me My Heart Cries Out “Hallelujah!” “Thank God For Saving Me” |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 8:34:38 GMT -8
Hopefully we can all agree, evil was a necessary byproduct of something else God valued, and not a primary purpose or intent of his heart.
We should never accuse God of desiring evil as the primary value point, as this is very insulting to his character.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 12, 2022 12:11:42 GMT -8
Hopefully we can all agree, evil was a necessary byproduct of something else God valued, and not a primary purpose or intent of his heart. We should never accuse God of desiring evil as the primary value point, as this is very insulting to his character. I've done a lot of stupid things in my lifetime, but as of today I plan to avoid insulting God's character like the plague. One thing is for sure evil is here and it's not leaving anytime soon but God can and will deliver us from evil. When Jesus included the phrase, “Deliver us from evil” in His model prayer, He clearly wanted us to understand that deliverance from evil was possible. It is obtainable. It is available. “Pray then like this,” Jesus said: “Deliver us from evil.” Jesus said it I believe it! |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 12, 2022 12:17:50 GMT -8
I found this in my Apologetics Study Bible for Students and thought I'd share it.
Why Does God Allow Evil?
J. Steve Lee
On December 2, 2015, a mass shooting by two terrorists killed fourteen people in California’s Inland Regional Center. Years earlier, in 2012, a gunman forced his way into Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut: he shot twenty first graders and six adults. From shootings like these to natural disasters that level communities, we regularly hear about or even experience the effects of sin and evil in the world. This leads many to ask, “If God can prevent such massacres and destruction, why doesn’t he?” That people routinely ask this question implies the widely held conviction that an all-powerful and all-good God would choose to destroy all evil. How could he possibly allow evil to exist?
Many suppose that the existence of evil disproves God’s existence. But the human ability to recognize evil is actually a good reason to believe in a Creator. If there was no God, there would be no objective, universal standard by which to measure good and evil. Since, however, all humans agree that the two are distinct, there must be an independent, eternal standard by which we ground moral convictions.
Nonetheless, some philosophers claim that the existence of evil is logically incompatible with the existence of the all-good, all-powerful God described in Scripture. If God exists, the theory goes, evil cannot. If evil exists, God cannot. God and evil, like square circles, are logically contradictory and thus cannot coexist. But few philosophers think this argument successful. In fact, even philosophically-informed atheists acknowledge the weakness of this view.
After all, it is logically possible that God, though all-powerful and all-knowing, has a good reason for allowing evil to exist. For instance, evil’s presence ensures the preservation of human free will. If we have genuine freedom, then we have the possibility of choosing to do evil rather than good. God is certainly powerful enough to prevent us from doing evil, but he would be taking away our free will by doing so. He cannot force us to always choose the good, because being made to choose the good would mean that we are not free.
There are other reasons God could allow evil to occur. For instance, coping with the effects of evil in the world often contributes to the development of virtues such as empathy, patience, and trust in Jesus as Savior. Without the ability to choose and exercise free will or the opportunity to develop virtue, our lives would be shallow and without love; we could not truly love one another or love God. We would essentially be robots lacking the ability to have a relationship with God, and loving relationship with us is the very thing God desires.
Though it is reasonable for God and evil to coexist, some say the presence of so much evil makes it difficult to believe in God. However, this is a subjective judgment. How much evil is too much? Who but God can say? We are all troubled by evil, but God has dealt evil a fatal blow through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 12:46:25 GMT -8
I personally don't think the mere existence of free will is enough to justify the evil God has allowed.
Suppose you walk in on your kid and his friend, and the friend is hitting your kid over and over—you don't feel the need to allow your kid's friend to continue beating him to preserve the sanctity of his free will.
You step in and intervene to display your character—so if you don't do that, you need a more important reason than just preserving free will.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 12, 2022 13:07:28 GMT -8
I personally don't think the mere existence of free will is enough to justify the evil God has allowed. Suppose you walk in on your kid and his friend, and the friend is hitting your kid over and over—you don't feel the need to allow your kid's friend to continue beating him to preserve the sanctity of his free will. You step in and intervene to display your character—so if you don't do that, you need a more important reason than just preserving free will. In your example I would have the free will to have an attorney present during questioning because a lot more than my character would be on display. And the Bully would have the free will to seek medical attention because he is sure to need it. I see what you're saying that free will stuff can be dangerous. Now God on the other hand always does the right thing. |
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Post by resurrection33 on Aug 13, 2022 9:14:15 GMT -8
I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I am the LORD, who do all these things / Isaiah 45:7 That verse sure makes it sound like He is. I was wondering what some other posters here views on this may be. A lot of texts flat-out declare that God is not, and could not be, the author of evil. Like, Deuteronomy 32:4 declares that “his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. [He is] a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” And Psalm 5:4 notes, “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil.” So as we read the deeper into Bible it would seem that God is without evil or any pretense of evil. I learned as I was studying this out that Isaiah 45:7 refers to physical evil. As does Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?", this verse contrasts prosperity and adversity. So the good is physical goodness and happiness, while the evil is physical distress, misfortune, calamity and natural evil, such as storms, earthquakes and other disasters. Even though a lot of the physical evil in the world often comes through the hand of wicked men and women, ultimately God permits it. Like we see in Genesis 50:20 "As for you, what you intended against me for evil, God intended for good, in order to accomplish a day like this— to preserve the lives of many people". If the evil of the Holocaust had not happened, then the miracle of the Jewish people’s return to Israel in 1948 would not have happened. What we can be sure of, however, is the fact that God is never, ever, the originator and author of evil. It would be contrary to his whole nature and being as consistently revealed in Scripture. Christianity has more than answered the problem of the presence of evil (that's the message of the cross) and the problem of the outcome of evil (for Christ’s resurrection demonstrates that God can beat out even the last enemy and greatest evil, death itself). But Christianity’s most difficult question is the origin of evil. Why did God ever allow “this evil stuff” in the first place? To me this is the most interesting question to try to answer on this topic. Next question is as we look around the world today why is there so much evil? It's in the Bible. No, I don't think God is the author of evil. I think that's what we do when we disobey him. |
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