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Post by Obadiah on Aug 2, 2022 10:42:27 GMT -8
What started me on my road out of Calvinism was really getting into A post on carm by Chalcedon entitled “Did Jesus bear Gods wrath and was He forsaken?”. This OP has over 10k posts and was a real eye opener for me. One the the big points for me was Gods love. The way God is portrayed in Calvinism started to make Him seem unloving. I started asking if God loves all or just some. This led me to study out the attributes of God. I came to understand that sovereignty is not an eternal attribute of God that would be compromised by the existence of free moral creatures. Dig Deeper: THE 5 POINTS THAT LED ME TO LEAVE CALVINISMCalvinists always argue that God cannot deny Himself or His eternal nature, which is true. God cannot stop being God. Based on this Calvinists conclude that because God is eternally sovereign that He cannot deny that sovereignty, an attribute of His very nature, by allowing for others to have any measure of control or authority. What the Calvinist fails to see is that sovereignty is not an eternal attribute of God. Sovereignty means “complete rule or dominion over creation.” I found out from my studies that for God to be in control over creation there has to be something created in which to control. He cannot display His power over creatures unless the creatures exist. Therefore, before creation the concept of sovereignty was not an attribute that could be used to describe God. An eternal attribute is something God possesses that is not contingent upon something else. The eternal attribute of God is His omnipotence, which refers to His eternally limitless power. Sovereignty is a temporal characteristic, not an eternal one, thus we can say God is all powerful, not because He is sovereign, but He is sovereign because He is all powerful, or at least He is as sovereign as He so chooses to be in relation to this temporal world. If not that would make Him the author of sin. |
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Post by rockson on Aug 5, 2022 2:16:47 GMT -8
The thing I find Calvinists need to consider is that they don't own the word "sovereignty". They'll claim some of them that they believe in the sovereignty of God but you don't. That's like going in circles around the wagons and trying to protect what they think belongs to them, the word sovereignty. NO. Other's believe in the sovereignty of God as well but have discernment I believe in knowing how God uses his sovereignty and how he doesn't. Or to put it another way God has the sovereign right to allow freedom of will if he wants to and who is man to say that he can't?
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Post by civic on Aug 5, 2022 5:48:49 GMT -8
The thing I find Calvinists need to consider is that they don't own the word "sovereignty". They'll claim some of them that they believe in the sovereignty of God but you don't. That's like going in circles around the wagons and trying to protect what they think belongs to them, the word sovereignty. NO. Other's believe in the sovereignty of God as well but have discernment I believe in knowing how God uses his sovereignty and how he doesn't. Or to put it another way God has the sovereign right to allow freedom of will if he wants to and who is man to say that he can't? welcome to the forum and thank you for joining brother |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 5, 2022 6:41:08 GMT -8
The thing I find Calvinists need to consider is that they don't own the word "sovereignty". They'll claim some of them that they believe in the sovereignty of God but you don't. That's like going in circles around the wagons and trying to protect what they think belongs to them, the word sovereignty. NO. Other's believe in the sovereignty of God as well but have discernment I believe in knowing how God uses his sovereignty and how he doesn't. Or to put it another way God has the sovereign right to allow freedom of will if he wants to and who is man to say that he can't? I hear you. It's like that putting God in a box thing. I think you may like this from one of my favorite pasters Ray Stedman. I believe Chalcedon sat under him for a time in northern California. Here is the link: Let God be God |
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Post by TibiasDad on Aug 5, 2022 11:38:19 GMT -8
What started me on my road out of Calvinism was really getting into A post on carm by Chalcedon entitled “Did Jesus bear Gods wrath and was He forsaken?”. This OP has over 10k posts and was a real eye opener for me. One the the big points for me was Gods love. The way God is portrayed in Calvinism started to make Him seem unloving. I started asking if God loves all or just some. This led me to study out the attributes of God. I came to understand that sovereignty is not an eternal attribute of God that would be compromised by the existence of free moral creatures. Dig Deeper: THE 5 POINTS THAT LED ME TO LEAVE CALVINISMCalvinists always argue that God cannot deny Himself or His eternal nature, which is true. God cannot stop being God. Based on this Calvinists conclude that because God is eternally sovereign that He cannot deny that sovereignty, an attribute of His very nature, by allowing for others to have any measure of control or authority. What the Calvinist fails to see is that sovereignty is not an eternal attribute of God. Sovereignty means “complete rule or dominion over creation.” I found out from my studies that for God to be in control over creation there has to be something created in which to control. He cannot display His power over creatures unless the creatures exist. Therefore, before creation the concept of sovereignty was not an attribute that could be used to describe God. An eternal attribute is something God possesses that is not contingent upon something else. The eternal attribute of God is His omnipotence, which refers to His eternally limitless power. Sovereignty is a temporal characteristic, not an eternal one, thus we can say God is all powerful, not because He is sovereign, but He is sovereign because He is all powerful, or at least He is as sovereign as He so chooses to be in relation to this temporal world. If not that would make Him the author of sin. Hi Obadiah, Like Justice and wrath, there is a conditional side of sovereignty, in that you must have something over which to rule. It is an attribute of contrast between two or more entities. I think sovereignty more concretely means that God plays by his own rules, and nothing can usurp that authority from him. Other willful entities with some level of sovereignty are not contrary to or inconsistent with his ultimate authority. In fact, I think it is enhances his sovereignty to allow others to, for lack of a better word, the freedom to buck his authority. Doug |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 5, 2022 13:26:38 GMT -8
What started me on my road out of Calvinism was really getting into A post on carm by Chalcedon entitled “Did Jesus bear Gods wrath and was He forsaken?”. This OP has over 10k posts and was a real eye opener for me. One the the big points for me was Gods love. The way God is portrayed in Calvinism started to make Him seem unloving. I started asking if God loves all or just some. This led me to study out the attributes of God. I came to understand that sovereignty is not an eternal attribute of God that would be compromised by the existence of free moral creatures. Dig Deeper: THE 5 POINTS THAT LED ME TO LEAVE CALVINISMCalvinists always argue that God cannot deny Himself or His eternal nature, which is true. God cannot stop being God. Based on this Calvinists conclude that because God is eternally sovereign that He cannot deny that sovereignty, an attribute of His very nature, by allowing for others to have any measure of control or authority. What the Calvinist fails to see is that sovereignty is not an eternal attribute of God. Sovereignty means “complete rule or dominion over creation.” I found out from my studies that for God to be in control over creation there has to be something created in which to control. He cannot display His power over creatures unless the creatures exist. Therefore, before creation the concept of sovereignty was not an attribute that could be used to describe God. An eternal attribute is something God possesses that is not contingent upon something else. The eternal attribute of God is His omnipotence, which refers to His eternally limitless power. Sovereignty is a temporal characteristic, not an eternal one, thus we can say God is all powerful, not because He is sovereign, but He is sovereign because He is all powerful, or at least He is as sovereign as He so chooses to be in relation to this temporal world. If not that would make Him the author of sin. Hi Obadiah, Like Justice and wrath, there is a conditional side of sovereignty, in that you must have something over which to rule. It is an attribute of contrast between two or more entities. I think sovereignty more concretely means that God plays by his own rules, and nothing can usurp that authority from him. Other willful entities with some level of sovereignty are not contrary to or inconsistent with his ultimate authority. In fact, I think it is enhances his sovereignty to allow others to, for lack of a better word, the freedom to buck his authority. Doug Yes sounds good to me and along with dizerner Welcome! I went by predestined on carm, you wrote a birthday song for me last year. |
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Post by TibiasDad on Aug 5, 2022 13:48:05 GMT -8
Yes, I remember.
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Post by TibiasDad on Aug 5, 2022 14:06:47 GMT -8
You too; now I have to figure out how this format works....
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 5, 2022 14:57:02 GMT -8
You too; now I have to figure out how this format works.... I hear that. I think the more you use it the more you get the hang of it. |
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Post by bobcarabbio on Aug 6, 2022 9:43:29 GMT -8
You too; now I have to figure out how this format works.... It's gotta be the most confusing one yet. I may not bother with it much longer. |
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Post by bobcarabbio on Aug 6, 2022 10:05:25 GMT -8
Personally, I've abandoned ALL the 'isms, and don't bother with "SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGIES" as a "Free range Charismatic Eclectic" - made so during the '70s.
I DO AGREE with one "Calvinist" proposal - i.e that in all things, GOD MOVES FIRST, and humans respond to HIS impetus.
That's to say when you PRAY, the Suggestion/desire to pray initially came from God, and that's WHY you prayed.
In order to BECOME a Christian, you have to be "Drawn to Christ" (since you'd NEVER do it on your own).
It all STARTS with Him.
For MOST of the last 59 years, I've been a member in good standing of the Assemblies of God denomination, where I'm comfortable, but not necessarily identified by their "theological paradigm", which I find generally acceptable - particularly in the years following the '70s.
Because of an influx of Charismatics when the Charismatic Outpouring ended in the late '70s, a LOT of their "LEGALISM", their "Closeline Holiness practices" and their "ONE STRIKE AND YOU'RE OUT" theology went away.
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Post by civic on Aug 6, 2022 10:52:43 GMT -8
You too; now I have to figure out how this format works.... It's gotta be the most confusing one yet. I may not bother with it much longer. C'mon bob you know an old dog can learn new tricks, you got this brother 
I'm learning it too lol. Practice makes perfect.
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Post by bobcarabbio on Aug 6, 2022 13:32:40 GMT -8
Preceding grace is not a Calvinist distinctive. But it is a "religious Buzz word" along with "Prevenient Grace" and Calvinist "Regeneration" all of which appear to mean more or less the same thing. Except that since the terms are denomination specific, they don't necessarily MEAN ANYTHING to the outsider. |
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toml
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by toml on Aug 6, 2022 14:22:20 GMT -8
Yes, you are right, they come across as the adults in the room. Everyone else needs to sit at the kid's table. But like any system of doctrine that does not accurately express revealed biblical truth, distortions and exaggerations and imbalances inevitably occur. No matter how good the teacher of Calvinism is their doctrine is still susceptible to these problems. One that is talked about a lot is John 13:16 where they clam "the world" is only the elect. That goes against what I believe is the Bible’s essential message: that God so loves the world and everyone in it that he went to extreme ends to redeem his human creation. It is the love of God, manifested in concrete actions especially in his dealings with ancient Israel and in the incarnation, that comprises the center of the biblical message not Tulip. The Bible is about the gospel of salvation and all that God has done to enable his human creation to restore fellowship with God himself through the reconciling work of Christ. And all this motivated by the love of God. One of the best video’s against Calvinism. There Is No Grace In CalvinismCalvinists have a big problem with the term world John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. As this verse shows it includes any who do not believe |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 6, 2022 14:50:15 GMT -8
Yes, you are right, they come across as the adults in the room. Everyone else needs to sit at the kid's table. But like any system of doctrine that does not accurately express revealed biblical truth, distortions and exaggerations and imbalances inevitably occur. No matter how good the teacher of Calvinism is their doctrine is still susceptible to these problems. One that is talked about a lot is John 13:16 where they clam "the world" is only the elect. That goes against what I believe is the Bible’s essential message: that God so loves the world and everyone in it that he went to extreme ends to redeem his human creation. It is the love of God, manifested in concrete actions especially in his dealings with ancient Israel and in the incarnation, that comprises the center of the biblical message not Tulip. The Bible is about the gospel of salvation and all that God has done to enable his human creation to restore fellowship with God himself through the reconciling work of Christ. And all this motivated by the love of God. One of the best video’s against Calvinism. There Is No Grace In CalvinismCalvinists have a big problem with the term world John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. As this verse shows it includes any who do not believe Really...Welcome toml! Glad you're here. |
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