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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 14:32:23 GMT -8
There's really only 3 basic categories. Original Sin WITH Determinism. Original Sin WITHOUT Determinism. NO Original Sin AT ALL. If you deny being Arminian you pretty much deny Original Sin, otherwise you fit into the beliefs whether you call yourself that or not. actually there is only one category. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It does not matter what person you follow. That is the gospel truth. ps..I am not arminian, And I do not deny origional sin either..
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 14:36:32 GMT -8
There's really only 3 basic categories. Original Sin WITH Determinism. Original Sin WITHOUT Determinism. NO Original Sin AT ALL. If you deny being Arminian you pretty much deny Original Sin, otherwise you fit into the beliefs whether you call yourself that or not. I’m starting to lean toward rejecting augustine and his teaching on original sin that did not exist in the early church until he came in the scene . He brought several teachings into the church that never existed . Determinism is another one of his doctrines as was double predestination. Calvin got most of his teaching from augustine. I’m no longer trapped by things I’ve been taught and questioning many of them . On the other forum I always refer to them as the doctrines of men . hope this helps !!! I see origional sin as this In adam all die even so. in christ will all be made alive I am glad you mentioned augustine. so many call it calvinism, But most of the doctrines came through augustine. I personally call it fatalism.. that everythign is set in stone. no matter what we do.. Even our salvation is set in stone (double predestination) Which I reject both.. I think they give God a bad name, and works right into Satan lie that God is just a puppetmaster and not a loving Abba Father
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 14:39:33 GMT -8
I’m starting to lean toward rejecting augustine and his teaching on original sin that did not exist in the early church until he came in the scene . He brought several teachings into the church that never existed . Determinism is another one of his doctrines as was double predestination. Calvin got most of his teaching from augustine. I’m no longer trapped by things I’ve been taught and questioning many of them . On the other forum I always refer to them as the doctrines of men . hope this helps !!! I see origional sin as this In adam all die even so. in christ will all be made alive I am glad you mentioned augustine. so many call it calvinism, But most of the doctrines came through augustine. I personally call it fatalism.. that everythign is set in stone. no matter what we do.. Even our salvation is set in stone (double predestination) Which I reject both.. I think they give God a bad name, and works right into Satan lie that God is just a puppetmaster and not a loving Abba Father Yes divine determinism is fatalism . You are spot on with that brother . Calvinists don’t like hearing that but it’s true .
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 14:43:28 GMT -8
I see origional sin as this In adam all die even so. in christ will all be made alive I am glad you mentioned augustine. so many call it calvinism, But most of the doctrines came through augustine. I personally call it fatalism.. that everythign is set in stone. no matter what we do.. Even our salvation is set in stone (double predestination) Which I reject both.. I think they give God a bad name, and works right into Satan lie that God is just a puppetmaster and not a loving Abba Father Yes divine determinism is fatalism . You are spot on with that brother . Calvinists don’t like hearing that but it’s true . I first used that term when I taught on romans 9. I taught from a fatalistic point of view. then I retaught from a point of View of Paul answering the question. Had God made a mistake in choosing the jew.. its amazing how different the outcomes are.. One says God condemned a baby before it was born. the other says God chose based not on what we think is normal (the oldest gets the birthright) but he did it his way (the older will serve the younger (Jacob was served by Esau) etc etc..
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 14:47:49 GMT -8
Yes divine determinism is fatalism . You are spot on with that brother . Calvinists don’t like hearing that but it’s true . I first used that term when I taught on romans 9. I taught from a fatalistic point of view. then I retaught from a point of View of Paul answering the question. Had God made a mistake in choosing the jew.. its amazing how different the outcomes are.. One says God condemned a baby before it was born. the other says God chose based not on what we think is normal (the oldest gets the birthright) but he did it his way (the older will serve the younger (Jacob was served by Esau) etc etc.. Thanks for sharing I was just telling someone last night Roman’s 9 will be my next in depth study .
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 14:51:01 GMT -8
I first used that term when I taught on romans 9. I taught from a fatalistic point of view. then I retaught from a point of View of Paul answering the question. Had God made a mistake in choosing the jew.. its amazing how different the outcomes are.. One says God condemned a baby before it was born. the other says God chose based not on what we think is normal (the oldest gets the birthright) but he did it his way (the older will serve the younger (Jacob was served by Esau) etc etc.. Thanks for sharing I was just telling someone last night Roman’s 9 will be my next in depth study . I had people ready to throw me off the chair I was teaching in before they realized I was doing a compair and contrast of the two interpretations.
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 14:54:31 GMT -8
Thanks for sharing I was just telling someone last night Roman’s 9 will be my next in depth study . I had people ready to throw me off the chair I was teaching in before they realized I was doing a compair and contrast of the two interpretations. Lol people can get pretty worked up over that . I haven’t seen it in person but on forums and over the phone with some Calvinists from the forum .
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 15:06:59 GMT -8
I had people ready to throw me off the chair I was teaching in before they realized I was doing a compair and contrast of the two interpretations. Lol people can get pretty worked up over that . I haven’t seen it in person but on forums and over the phone with some Calvinists from the forum . lol. they were not calvinist.. they Thought I was teaching the fatalistic view as truth.. Its funny, I joined a baptist chat. Sadly I thought I would find peace there (I am a former baptist) bit I could not find peace even there..
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Post by rockson on Aug 9, 2022 21:01:19 GMT -8
I've been giving this some thought today. I'm never wanting to make Calvinists feel like I'm degrading them or questioning their sincerity and love for God. I do believe on both sides of this Calvinists and Non-Calvinists you can have what I call religionists that is one's who don't even have the love of God in their hearts. Please hear me out on this. What I mean is natural man can LOVE theology. They truly can just love making arguments building a case and achieving the ultimate high....winning a discussion, an argument like a lawyer wins a case. . I think all can understand one can even have "right arguments" and still be fundamentally wrong. In what way? No true relationship with God as it pertains to fellowship in the Spirit. I think we all need to be careful not to have theology our god, but rather we serve the God of the theology for I think there is a difference. As I say I think this can apply to Calvinists and non-Calvinists but I recall my time over at CARM.
Now about Calvinism. I was talking here the other day what Calvinist's "Doctrines of Grace" truly are. I felt in my spirit they really are the "Doctrines of Unwarranted Favoritism" which Rom 2:11 declares God doesn't show. Giving it more thought today something else came up from within me. To me it seems Calvinism is really one could say is a message of False Humility. That's why good people can fall into it so easily for what it seems like to appear...true humiliation. It's not however...It's the opposite. Sorry but I have to put it this way. The devil is subtle and sly. (I'm sure this would get me banned on CARM) but the lines of distinction need to be put down clearly.
It's my feel in the spirit that the devil those many years ago created a theological House of False Humiliation (the basic thoughts of Calvinism) and made it appear like nothing less than a sure thing that it had to be true. That's not to say that those lured into it were bad, insincere people...no many of them do and have the love of God in their hearts. Their minds have been taken to an extreme and with love we need to seek to bring them out of it. They are in the spirit our dear beloved brothers and sisters but a falsehood has covered their minds making it hard for them to grasp reasonable and rational thought. Their hearts if they have the love of God in them KNOW it's irrational BUT...they don't know what to do about it. They're afraid! It's a house of False Humility but it seems like it has to be true when it comes to their mind but not their spirit. Every way one can give God glory and say he's in control they should no matter where it takes the mind. It seems right but it's not.
Even though the image of what's that puts in their minds about the character of God that it's hideous, it's like a reflex back....no it can't be IT JUST CAN'T BE! NO, NO, NO God is the controller, he's the decider of everything. Can one see that looks on the surface as being the greatest humility to embrace such a thing? What something appears like however certainly doesn't mean it is. While the intentions are sincere it's a totally misguided way of thinking to have stay in the mind that God.....controls... everything...every thought, every act, every conclusion they see about them. Once in that House they do peer out it's windows longing and wishing it wasn't the case....but now they're even afraid to admit it. Won't God be displeased by their leaving THIS HUMILITY? I think the Spirit of God cries out to them though...GO BY YOUR HEART! GO BY YOUR HEART! GO BY YOUR HEART! You know in your heart that is NOT what I'm like the way the Calvinism, or let's put it this way the way the enemy of their soul paints the picture of God! While it may seem like a hard thing I'd exhort all if they find themselves in the House I spoke of above to have courage and not be afraid to have a mind that's willing to accept arguments refuting Calvinism. Your vision of the GREATNESS OF God will not be diminished in the least by accepting what you know MUST be the truth about God' s character. God Bless and Peace!
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Post by rockson on Aug 9, 2022 21:38:21 GMT -8
Thanks for your response. I don't believe though the born again child of God has a heart that can't be listened to. We do have the Love of God shed abroad in our spirits by the Holy Spirit Romans 5:5 and 1 Jn 2:26 says,
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 Jn 2:26
I also believe Prov 20:27 "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."
We have God in us and he bears witness within us of his mood, feeling and the truth of many things Rom 8:16 and we can trust that witness. I've seen many through the years people born of the Spirit and false teaching come around and they just KNOW, that hey KNOW there's just something not quite right about it but they may not even be able to articulate why. God gives one a check in their spirit if they're sensitive to his spirit.
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Post by rockson on Aug 9, 2022 22:22:33 GMT -8
Dizerner stated: I don't think we should go "by our heart," because the Bible says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, and who can know it. This means, our natural inclination—our default—is deception.
Rockson: God however for the born again ones, has given us a new heart a heart of flesh. Eze 36: 26,27 We have his Spirit now in us and we are told we can walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Gal 5:16 Doesn't mean we're perfect and can't fall into yielding to the flesh but God wants us to start having more faith in our capacity to walk in him then to walk in the natural way.
Dizerner stated: The alternative to Calvinism is actually more naturally offensive to me than Calvinism—I think God is a monster for allowing evil just because of free will.
Rockson: Well I guess we're just cut out of different cloth for I can never understand why anyone couldn't understand how God didn't have to allow free will to maintain his character of love. Where there's LOVE I feel there needs to be liberty and the universe in my opinion would be tyrannical without it.
Dizerner stated: Beware of judging other peoples' hearts bad, and beware of judging your own good.
Rockson: Sure I agree. But one also has to go and should go by discernment they can pick up about things. Some people's hearts just aren't in a right place and it can be clearly demonstrated by how they think and how they act. See Acts 8:23 While were told to judge not lest you be judged Mat 7:1 we're also told to judge righteous judgements. John 7:24 & 1 Corinthians 5:12 It's all about with what spirit and what attitude you do so.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2022 13:30:49 GMT -8
Might as well open with a classic.
This is not meant to be polemical—but for those who would like to see an opposing view on Calvinism.
I have a confession to make—I used to be very intimidated by the idea of Calvinism because underneath I didn't feel 100% sure it couldn't possibly be true. This made me in practice scared of God—scared of who he might be and whether I was made for his wrath. Over years of prayer and study I have grown in my confidence that I am no longer intimidated by Calvinism and really don't think it's a very big threat anymore. The major reasons I reject Calvinism are as follows:
1. It makes God less loving than he is.
Just as God is completely holy, completely just and completely powerful, so God is completely loving. The argument comes that God allowing a person to be lost that he could have theoretically saved, makes God less loving than he could be. But this is a wrong definition of love. Love does not mean that God does not have any other reasons or motives for doing something that might be stronger or more important to him than the love he holds for the lost. So whatever mysterious reasons God had for allowing people to be lost, does not override the truth that God genuinely loved those lost people.
2. It makes God more evil than he is.
These points overlap. Underneath all the secondary decrees and compatibilistic philoso-doublespeak Calvinism employs, is the unalterable logic God decrees all things. This means that however many "degrees of separation" you want to create in between the ultimate decree of God that something would be, and the enactment through external means to get to that decree, there is still underneath a chain from the decree of God to the fulfillment of God's decree that cannot logically be broken. This does indeed make God his own enemy and the author of all evil.
3. It takes away all sense of true responsibility.
If everything I do is decreed by God before I am born, then my will cannot be the deciding or effectual agent of my sin. This is not to argue or imply that all sin is done through the will of a human; but it is also to support that there is indeed some sin that is done through the will of a human, the sin that rejects the grace of God that is freely offered and well meant. We could redefine "responsibility" as not "the ability to respond," but the mere bare culpability for what is decreed through secondary means, but again this is just philoso-doublespeak obscuring that it is in the end decreed by God.
All the babble of rejections like "free will isn't in the Bible" and "you didn't use enough Scripture verses" are just pious rhetoric assuming what the objector sets out to prove by preloading the terms free will and exegesis to be deterministic friendly; that is unless you say the Bible verses mean a certain thing you are "eisegeting" and "rationalizing" because you don't agree with deterministic presuppositions brought to the Scripture.
And for the reasons above I do consider Calvinism to be a different Gospel than the one the Bible declares, although by the mercies of God their doctrinal sin can be forgiven. Beyond these 3 major points, I think I have a more primary and fundamental reason for rejecting Calvinism, and that is direct revelation from God that leads to the above logic. If one is spiritually beguiled and blinded, one will not find the above ideas "convincing" because one supernaturally emotionally feels they are wrong. So essentially, I reject Calvinism because it was revealed to me that is a demonic doctrine that appeals to sinful desires we have for a false selfish reasons for security and an evil resolution to the problem of evil. We would rather God deliberately plan and enact evil, than that he passively allowed it to happen creating real victims, because the alternative offends us and makes us feel insecure, but if we can find more comfort in God being evil, then our sin nature will embrace it. The other sinful alternative error for dealing with this problem of delegation, is to put self-righteous goodness inside of man and insist that delegation created no real victims. This is erring on the ditch on the other side of the road, which most Calvinists call "Pelagian," but would be better described as denying the effects of original sin and promoting inherent goodness.
So then what do I believe if I consider Calvinism false?
I generally follow the ideas of Classical Arminianism, which embraces God's love for all people, the necessity of preceding grace for all those born in sin, the remedy of faith in Christ's substitionary death and resurrection, and the possibility of real apostasy. But all of us who accept Christ as salvation, when we learn of God's salvific economy, we intuitively run the numbers—we factor the way the morality of it "feels" inside our heart—and it's almost impossible not to feel one way or the other. If God seems to allow or work in some way that seems unjust, immoral or puzzling, it's a great challenge and can even become a source of offense to our soul.
I think it's absolutely necessary to employ two disciplines here—to accept things in Scripture that seem contradictory, and put to death everything in us that wants to logically prove our point. The biggest place this happens—is when we posit that God loves all people, and yet some are not saved—and this entails the puzzling contradiction of not seeing a way love synthesizes with letting some be lost, in one way or another. If we were simply to accept these two things—without trying to explain how and prove that they can be logically compatible—it might protect us from being misled by trusting in our own intellect and morality, to attempt to prove they can be compatible, and our own feelings could potentially motivate us to accept a certain doctrine that purports to "fix" the tension in a way that feels understandable or right to us. Weirdly people seem more ready to marry things as opposite as determinism and free will, than to blend universal love and an inexplicable lack of grace's universal bestowal.
A certain Dr. James White likes to call preceding grace the Arminian "duct tape," as if the best we could do is try to patch things together haphazardly. Sadly, even Dr. Flowers the Provisionist constantly seems to also mischaracterize Arminians in similar fashion, by calling our preceding grace a "mystical zapping" not found in the Bible. But I think the real duct tape we pull out, is trying to explain and justify to ourselves when God tells us two different things that seem to contradict, and we can't work it out logically or emotionally, instead of taking the path of complete humility and accepting a paradox that seems impossible to our limited understanding.
Preceding grace is in some way or other believed by all theologies, and the only reason it seems superfluous or absent, is because one doesn't like its implications—that man is both sinfully helpless to begin salvation, and yet free to reject the grace as its offered. Certainly it's frustrating that people seem too ready to box everyone under certain labels, and not allow the nuances for people to self-define, and I've been guilty of that. There are people of all labels with peculiar differences and variations, and all too ready to jump on someone for any perceived infraction of so-called misrepresentation, instead of helpfully explain. And little known to many, there are Arminians who believe in a form of special election, and I'd like to explain that here.
It is obvious to me, anyway, that putting spiritual principles together, it seems unlikely, if not impossible that all people receive the same amount of grace, and probably not even the grace to find the remedy of salvation in Christ under such areas and time periods of intense spiritual darkness. I can chalk that up in some way to the curse of the original sin and every consequence of that terrific rebellion that initiated the kind of unfair world we now live in. But the natural understanding would insist God could surely make a better effort than he has, and there seems—if we are honest—sometimes no good enough reason one can find for God to allow the amount of victimization we know, even intuitively, has happened in this fallen world despite the gift of redemption.
And so I, as an Arminian, accept a form of special election of some souls that receive a more unique call and grace from God—although not irresistibly—yet still, I accept the predestination and election and calling of specific souls called by God with a grace and purpose that not every soul ubiquitously shares. I don't think this necessarily logically means God does not want all saved, and in fact I think this brings a unique responsibility to guide, pray for, and help those not so specially elected, just as the nation of Israel was elected to bring spiritual light to other surrounding pagan nations. But at the same time—people seem to just knee-jerk categorize Calvinists as people who believe in unique election and Arminians as people who believe in "peanut butter" grace. Not so—there is room for nuance here.
This does harmonize and explain many certain Bible verses that speak of special election with other Bible verses that speak of a universal intent to save. I have tried to work out some model of corporate election, and I do think the principle of Christ being the ultimate and real Elect One is true and valid, yet the Bible also seems to specifically use election in an individual sense, even under the subset of Christ as the uniquely elect, and indicate some individuals are also elected in Christ specifically. On what basis are they chosen if God universally loves and is no respecter of persons? Here, ironically, the Calvinist would probably be unsatisified with me appealing to the same mystery they seem to fall back on—the mystery of God's unfathomable counsel.
However, we could speculate, perhaps unwisely, some certain theories that would harmonize universal love with special election, and it seems even some variations of Calvinism really come awfully close to something like this, depending on who you talk to. It may be that God works within certain limitations set by man's rebellion—by God's own choice to allow it for his glory—whereupon because of original sin only certain souls are within his influence of grace because of free will choices. Does this make man the "determiner" of the elect? I think not, for it only makes man the "influencer," and someone who influences is not the same as someone who determines.
I would be glad to get into heaven any way I can—if I were not specially chosen, if I were the least saint in all of heaven, if I had to live in a little pup tent on the outskirts of glory and be heaven's lowly janitor—I guess I'd be truly grateful and consider the least saint in heaven better than the best sinner in hell. But I can't deny very powerful and vivid signs of some kind of call of God upon my life I had nothing to do with, and set me apart from many other people, even though I really often feel more unworthy and sinful than they are. There is some mark of God upon my life since I was even born, and clearly this is not universal.
Allow for nuance. Sometimes I think we don't leave much room for it in theology, and it never feels good to be dumped in the "Arminian" or "Calvinist" or whatever box, when we have given a lot of thought and prayer to our views. I hope I can listen to people and consider their thoughts, and that maybe they can see a new kind of theology that seems quite vastly under represented and under appreciated in that of a Classical Arminian. I hope this view proved thought provoking and interesting at least, and I hope some ministers come to prominence who can be as persuasive as other strains of theology.
Blessings to all those who love Christ sincerely.
I'm confused because none of the above is a reason to reject Calvinism (or a reason to choose Arminianism). Logically speaking, neither the refutation nor the rejection of Calvinism makes Arminianism correct. I wonder what would you do if I could show every "reason" listed was not a reason for rejecting Calvinism? What then would you do? The absence of reasons for rejection is not the presence of reasons for accepting. Isn't the reason for accepting or rejecting a position supposed to be based on scripture?
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Post by makesends on Aug 14, 2022 8:03:58 GMT -8
I see origional sin as this In adam all die even so. in christ will all be made alive I am glad you mentioned augustine. so many call it calvinism, But most of the doctrines came through augustine. I personally call it fatalism.. that everythign is set in stone. no matter what we do.. Even our salvation is set in stone (double predestination) Which I reject both.. I think they give God a bad name, and works right into Satan lie that God is just a puppetmaster and not a loving Abba Father Yes divine determinism is fatalism . You are spot on with that brother . Calvinists don’t like hearing that but it’s true . "Fatalism" runs with the notion that there is nothing you can do to change what will happen. That is human thinking, wrongly conceived. God's predestination of all things includes our very decisions, by which what happens subsequently is caused. This may mean that God has determined all things, but it is NOT fatalism. Calvinism does NOT deny true choice.
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Post by civic on Aug 14, 2022 8:08:26 GMT -8
Yes divine determinism is fatalism . You are spot on with that brother . Calvinists don’t like hearing that but it’s true . "Fatalism" runs with the notion that there is nothing you can do to change what will happen. That is human thinking, wrongly conceived. God's predestination of all things includes our very decisions, by which what happens subsequently is caused. This may mean that God has determined all things, but it is NOT fatalism. Calvinism does NOT deny true choice. choice as in free will ? how do you define free will ?
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Post by hansen on Aug 14, 2022 8:42:25 GMT -8
The thing I find Calvinists need to consider is that they don't own the word "sovereignty". They'll claim some of them that they believe in the sovereignty of God but you don't. That's like going in circles around the wagons and trying to protect what they think belongs to them, the word sovereignty. NO. Other's believe in the sovereignty of God as well but have discernment I believe in knowing how God uses his sovereignty and how he doesn't. Or to put it another way God has the sovereign right to allow freedom of will if he wants to and who is man to say that he can't? For myself, a main problem with Calvinism is the teaching of irresistible grace. We all believe that grace is essential, and in my understanding we cannot even begin to move ourselves towards God and faith in Him apart from His initiative, from grace. We're lost, after all. But unless even that grace is resistible then the meaning of the bible from Genesis to Revelation, the meaning of the gospel, is completely gutted; we have no reason for either, and God may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest in the beginning, and avoided a huge amount of human suffering, evil, sin in the process. Man can still say "no", at any point along the way, even if grace is required for him to muster a "yes".
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