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Post by civic on Aug 23, 2022 6:04:14 GMT -8
@josheb what do you make of these from the Institutes and WCF ?
Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? Here their tongues, otherwise so loquacious, must become mute. The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. (latin. "Decretum quidem horribile, fateor."; french. "Je confesse que ce decret nous doit epouvanter.") Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. If anyone inveighs against God's foreknowledge at this point, he stumbles rashly and heedlessly. What reason is there to accuse the Heavenly Judge because he was not ignorant of what was to happen? If there is any just or manifest complaint, it applies to predestination. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision. For as it pertains to his wisdom to foreknow everything that is to happen, so it pertains to his might to rule and control everything by his hand. And Augustine also skillfully disposes of this question, as of others: "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)"
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion III.xxiii.7 (The Library of Christian Classics), trans. Ford Lewis Battles, Westminster John Knox Press (January 1, 1960), pg 955-956
"The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny….By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death " (Institutes of the Christian Religion 3.21.5).
The Westminster Confession of Faith:
“As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected . . . are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His
glorious justice.” (Chap. III — Art. VI and VII)
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Post by TibiasDad on Aug 23, 2022 7:01:06 GMT -8
Hi Obadiah, Like Justice and wrath, there is a conditional side of sovereignty, in that you must have something over which to rule. It is an attribute of contrast between two or more entities. I think sovereignty more concretely means that God plays by his own rules, and nothing can usurp that authority from him. Other willful entities with some level of sovereignty are not contrary to or inconsistent with his ultimate authority. In fact, I think it is enhances his sovereignty to allow others to, for lack of a better word, the freedom to buck his authority. Sovereignty is the right to control everything, not the action of controlling everything. A sovereign king is sovereign whether or not he acts on it Doug One thought is the Calvinist misuse of the word sovereign. The word means having the right to rule over everything in your kingdom. Sovereignty does not mean that you have to act on it, only that you have the right... This may be a duplicate post, trying to figure out how this place works It would appear that we are saying the same thing. Sovereignty means that God's ultimate authority cannot be overthrown. We cannot make God do something he doesn't want to do! In his sovereignty, he can, like the oceans, give freedom to a certain point, but he sets the limits beyond which we cannot breach. Doug
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 11:10:07 GMT -8
@josheb what do you make of these from the Institutes and WCF ? My impulse is to say Calvin's commentaries are much more informative and a reliable reflection of his beliefs than "The Institutes..." We must remember "The Institutes..." were originally written as a Catholic and specifically as a treatise on reforms within the Roman Catholic Church. They are not expressly a Protestant treatise. All the early Reformers were RCC. None of them intended to leave the Church and they probably wouldn't have done so had the RCC not sought to kill them. Calvin's Institutes started out as a very small book, something like 20+ brief pleas for reform. It expanded over the course of his lifetime as politics, doctrine, and personal maturity warranted. His commentaries, on the other hand, are a product of specific examination of scripture. I also think Calvin was just one of many sharing a certain set of soteriological positions. As you all know, I consider myself monergist, not strictly Calvinist. Calvin believed infant baptism was salvific. That is, of course, absurd. It is one of many examples of his allegiance to RCCism that plagued many of the early Reformers, not just Calvin. We'd have to discard a large swath of the Reformation were we to toss out those men because of some errant belief. They all had them somewhere. That is why I tend to appeal to the WCF and not Calvin. The only time anyone finds me quoting Calvin is when Calvin is the subject. The only time I appeal to the WCF is when monergism is the subject. When salvation is the subject I appeal to scripture and scripture alone. You all know this to be true. My exacting and unyielding reliance on scripture alone to prove my position irritates some of you. I know some theology, but I use scripture. Calvin and Calvinism are not exactly the same thing; the latter has evolved and progressed as others who came after him contemplated, debated, and amended his views and those of the others on his side of the soteriological debate. I have always felt it is a huge mistake to call the Soteriology boards "Arminianism & Calvinism" because it leaves out the Traditionalists, RCC, Pelagians, Wesleyans, Eastern Orthodox, and whoever may fall in between. It ignores the fact the debate of the sinner's volitional agency in salvation has existed almost from the beginning of the closing of the canon. The differences among the ECFs, the debate between Augustine and Pelagius, the debate between Luther and Erasmus, etc. aren't that different from one another. Calvin was rigorous and prodigious, but he wasn't exhaustive or perfect. I find the WCF is a better articulate of monergism than Calvin's Institutes. Beyond that I'm not sure what you're asking but I will comment by saying the portions quoted are missing one of the most fundamental aspects of theology to which most all of us agree: God is not the author of sin! Neither did God's ordaining cause violence to the will of the creature. Those two quotes don't remind us of that context. When read without that presuppositional context they read as determinism but that is not Calvinism and it's not monergism. Anyone arguing those quotes that way is arguing a straw man. God knew humanity would sin. Everyone agrees. Given the inevitability humanity would collectively and individually sin and God knew beforehand, it was necessary to address that problem. So everyone is dead in sin and from that state God chose to save some. By default, everyone not chosen to be saved was chosen for destruction but that does not mean God picked up every individual action figure and arbitrarily tossed some in one pile and others in another pile. That view would also be a straw man view of monergism. The default position is everyone dies, and they are all dead because of sin and their choosing sin, neither of which are God's doing. He is not the author of sin and the Creator did NOT do violence to the creature's will. He'll let you die dead in the consequences of your choice. IF He chooses to save you then it is because of His will, His purpose and not because He subordinated His will to the will of the creature's sinful flesh. That latter position would be a contingency. We would then not only have the problem of the Creator's will willfully being subordinated to the creature's sinful will, but we'd also have the problem of The Causal Agent's purpose being subordinated to the contingency of a secondary cause. Salvation is not a contingency plan. These are some of the reasons I reject volitionalism. I find the WCF a better source of appeal than Calvin, but I find scripture sufficient and efficacious.
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Post by rockson on Aug 23, 2022 15:29:09 GMT -8
. Calvinism DOES teach God predestinated some for destruction and I'm aware they use flowery words to make it sound nicer but there's no mistaken it. They most certainly DO teach he does. And to say Calvinism teaches God ordained all things from before creation without causing violence to the creature's will is mere double talk. If you're saying ALL evil acts were ORDAINED then you're saying it had to be directed and orchestrated to take place. If God did the ORDAINING then he did the orchestration. That would therefore mean somebody's will had to be directed outside of what they'd normally do. To the readers though I'd speak and ask. Are you really willing to let such a strange way of thinking as the other poster put forth take root in your mind? It's really only you who can choose. I have to believe that YOU KNOW in your heart....if someone ordained something that would lead to a normal understanding how words are used that they must have effected the others will. So what you have here is a Calvinist really saying that he does but then switching it by saying he doesn't meant only to confuse you. They'd know however that they did plant in your mind that he DID. No offence to that poster but it's like a bate and switch technique. Tells you that God didn't do something to the will but really has swung it around to say that he did. When he says God ordained EVERY evil event he's saying God directed it. He did but he didn't, he did but he didn't, he did but he didn't! No the fact is he didn't PERIOD. He or she should just stay with that.
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Post by rockson on Aug 23, 2022 15:42:27 GMT -8
Josheb Said: Given the inevitability humanity would collectively and individually sin and God knew beforehand, it was necessary to address that problem. So everyone is dead in sin and from that state God chose to save some. By default, everyone not chosen to be saved was chosen for destruction but that does not mean God picked up every individual action figure and arbitrarily tossed some in one pile and others in another pile
Rockson: Oh come on it does so but I guess all readers will have to decide. You're saying God chose to save SOME and from your way of thinking that means people individuals by name. That means all other individuals he's chosen not to grant the privileges! How can you then say he didn't choose to toss some in one pile and others in another? Sorry but there's nothing about what you're saying that makes any sense.
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Post by TibiasDad on Aug 23, 2022 20:05:44 GMT -8
. Calvinism DOES teach God predestinated some for destruction and I'm aware they use flowery words to make it sound nicer but there's no mistaken it. They most certainly DO teach he does. And to say Calvinism teaches God ordained all things from before creation without causing violence to the creature's will is mere double talk. If you're saying ALL evil acts were ORDAINED then you're saying it had to be directed and orchestrated to take place. If God did the ORDAINING then he did the orchestration. That would therefore mean somebody's will had to be directed outside of what they'd normally do. To the readers though I'd speak and ask. Are you really willing to let such a strange way of thinking as the other poster put forth take root in your mind? It's really only you who can choose. I have to believe that YOU KNOW in your heart....if someone ordained something that would lead to a normal understanding how words are used that they must have effected the others will. So what you have here is a Calvinist really saying that he does but then switching it by saying he doesn't meant only to confuse you. They'd know however that they did plant in your mind that he DID. No offence to that poster but it's like a bate and switch technique. Tells you that God didn't do something to the will but really has swung it around to say that he did. When he says God ordained EVERY evil event he's saying God directed it. He did but he didn't, he did but he didn't, he did but he didn't! No the fact is he didn't PERIOD. He or she should just stay with that. Brother, I think you mean "bait" and switch....
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Alexander(alreday here)
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Post by Alexander(alreday here) on Aug 23, 2022 20:26:49 GMT -8
Josheb Said: Given the inevitability humanity would collectively and individually sin and God knew beforehand, it was necessary to address that problem. So everyone is dead in sin and from that state God chose to save some. By default, everyone not chosen to be saved was chosen for destruction but that does not mean God picked up every individual action figure and arbitrarily tossed some in one pile and others in another pile Rockson: Oh come on it does so but I guess all readers will have to decide. You're saying God chose to save SOME and from your way of thinking that means people individuals by name. That means all other individuals he's chosen not to grant the privileges! How can you then say he didn't choose to toss some in one pile and others in another? Sorry but there's nothing about what you're saying that makes any sense. There is some kind of unspoken assumption that the other poster rests his ideas on. If you knew what that assumption was you could open up to him why what he is stating is illogical double talk. I say this because just like you, the quotes from Calvin are blantantly self contradictory to us, but not to the poster. therefore some unspoken concept exists that smmoths over the illogic.
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Post by TibiasDad on Aug 23, 2022 22:00:13 GMT -8
Josheb Said: Given the inevitability humanity would collectively and individually sin and God knew beforehand, it was necessary to address that problem. So everyone is dead in sin and from that state God chose to save some. By default, everyone not chosen to be saved was chosen for destruction but that does not mean God picked up every individual action figure and arbitrarily tossed some in one pile and others in another pile Rockson: Oh come on it does so but I guess all readers will have to decide. You're saying God chose to save SOME and from your way of thinking that means people individuals by name. That means all other individuals he's chosen not to grant the privileges! How can you then say he didn't choose to toss some in one pile and others in another? Sorry but there's nothing about what you're saying that makes any sense. There is some kind of unspoken assumption that the other poster rests his ideas on. If you knew what that assumption was you could open up to him why what he is stating is illogical double talk. I say this because just like you, the quotes from Calvin are blantantly self contradictory to us, but not to the poster. therefore some unspoken concept exists that smmoths over the illogic. Yes, it is in the hidden will of God! Doug
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Post by civic on Aug 24, 2022 4:05:01 GMT -8
Plus Gods will is His will regardless of what adjectives one wants to use such as active, permissive, hidden etc.....
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 27, 2022 14:13:00 GMT -8
They hijack a lot of terms. "Free will" where the will isn't free. "Sovereign" where God is not allowed to do some things. I was able to hijack the term Arminian and switch from being a Pauline Christian to being an Arminian without changing any of my beliefs about the gospel. I`m really fond of the word Arminian because it`s less aggressive than describing myself as a Pauline Christian. The term Pauline is suggestive that my theology is superior by virtue of my position that it echoes Paul`s gospel. Arminianism is more benign and hopefully less likely to cause others to react defensively to my remarks. It`s been a recent transition and fun working out the details.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 28, 2022 11:18:25 GMT -8
Calvinism is a doctrine that they like to summarize as 5 points, acronymized by the word TULIP. Yes, the flower tulip, as though dressing up their sick doctrine with the soft image of a flower would make the acceptance of their message any more likely. A very foolish and earthly tactic, especially for those that claim to rely solely on the “sovereignty” of God for the deliverance of the gospel.
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Post by civic on Aug 30, 2022 7:55:42 GMT -8
You too; now I have to figure out how this format works.... It's gotta be the most confusing one yet. I may not bother with it much longer. C'mon Bob you got this
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Post by rockson on Aug 30, 2022 15:23:14 GMT -8
Sovereignty is a temporal characteristic, not an eternal one, thus we can say God is all powerful, not because He is sovereign, but He is sovereign because He is all powerful, or at least He is as sovereign as He so chooses to be in relation to this temporal world. Correct. God is as sovereign or in control directing things as much as he chooses to be. And isn't it ironic that those who are saying he can't choose to have limited control it is they who are really rising up against the true sovereignty of God? Isn't like they're saying, "No God you can't do that!" But who are they to question God? Does he have to ask for their permission?
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 30, 2022 17:25:51 GMT -8
Sovereignty is a temporal characteristic, not an eternal one, thus we can say God is all powerful, not because He is sovereign, but He is sovereign because He is all powerful, or at least He is as sovereign as He so chooses to be in relation to this temporal world. Correct. God is as sovereign or in control directing things as much as he chooses to be. And isn't it ironic that those who are saying he can't choose to have limited control it is they who are really rising up against the true sovereignty of God? Isn't like they're saying, "No God you can't do that!" But who are they to question God? Does he have to ask for their permission? It's mind-boggling.
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alive
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Post by alive on Sept 9, 2022 7:26:25 GMT -8
Josheb Said: Given the inevitability humanity would collectively and individually sin and God knew beforehand, it was necessary to address that problem. So everyone is dead in sin and from that state God chose to save some. By default, everyone not chosen to be saved was chosen for destruction but that does not mean God picked up every individual action figure and arbitrarily tossed some in one pile and others in another pile Rockson: Oh come on it does so but I guess all readers will have to decide. You're saying God chose to save SOME and from your way of thinking that means people individuals by name. That means all other individuals he's chosen not to grant the privileges! How can you then say he didn't choose to toss some in one pile and others in another? Sorry but there's nothing about what you're saying that makes any sense. I see it differently---Adam's fallen race's destiny is destruction. That was determined at the Fall. God keeps a remnant in order to fullfill His eternal purpose.
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