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Post by Obadiah on Aug 6, 2022 14:52:42 GMT -8
Preceding grace is not a Calvinist distinctive. But it is a "religious Buzz word" along with "Prevenient Grace" and Calvinist "Regeneration" all of which appear to mean more or less the same thing. Except that since the terms are denomination specific, they don't necessarily MEAN ANYTHING to the outsider. Looks like you got this place down. I always liked you posts at carm. Good to see you here. |
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Post by bobcarabbio on Aug 6, 2022 21:16:22 GMT -8
Regeneration is not grace, it's the new birth. To generate means to give life, to RE generate just means to give life again. Not to a Calvinist. "Regeneration" is a "Twilight state", wherein God provides a "Work Around" so that a totally Depraved human can relate to the Gospel, and become Born again. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 21:19:26 GMT -8
Regeneration is not grace, it's the new birth. To generate means to give life, to RE generate just means to give life again. Not to a Calvinist. "Regeneration" is a "Twilight state", wherein God provides a "Work Around" so that a totally Depraved human can relate to the Gospel, and become Born again.
I don't think you're correct.
If you can give me some references where you deduce that from a Calvinist, I've simply never heard of that.
What you are speaking of is Classical Arminian prevenient grace, not regeneration. In fact come Classicals call it “partial regeneration.”
There were some Calvinists who thought you could be regenerated and not know it—definitely not the majority view.
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Post by civic on Aug 7, 2022 5:28:03 GMT -8
Preceding grace is not a Calvinist distinctive. But it is a "religious Buzz word" along with "Prevenient Grace" and Calvinist "Regeneration" all of which appear to mean more or less the same thing. Except that since the terms are denomination specific, they don't necessarily MEAN ANYTHING to the outsider. ditto Bob |
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Post by civic on Aug 7, 2022 5:34:30 GMT -8
Yes, you are right, they come across as the adults in the room. Everyone else needs to sit at the kid's table. But like any system of doctrine that does not accurately express revealed biblical truth, distortions and exaggerations and imbalances inevitably occur. No matter how good the teacher of Calvinism is their doctrine is still susceptible to these problems. One that is talked about a lot is John 13:16 where they clam "the world" is only the elect. That goes against what I believe is the Bible’s essential message: that God so loves the world and everyone in it that he went to extreme ends to redeem his human creation. It is the love of God, manifested in concrete actions especially in his dealings with ancient Israel and in the incarnation, that comprises the center of the biblical message not Tulip. The Bible is about the gospel of salvation and all that God has done to enable his human creation to restore fellowship with God himself through the reconciling work of Christ. And all this motivated by the love of God. One of the best video’s against Calvinism. There Is No Grace In CalvinismCalvinists have a big problem with the term world John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. As this verse shows it includes any who do not believe You sure have that right Tom. Thats one of the many word games they play to support their false teachings with tulip. They even do it with simple pronouns like all, everyone, every man, all mankind, all the world etc... to mean the elect of the jews and gentiles when the bible uses those exact terms in other places. They twist the simple meaning of words to support their false doctrines much like the JW's. I call it word salad on the other forum but they ban me for ever saying that now lol. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 8, 2022 8:12:04 GMT -8
Not to a Calvinist. "Regeneration" is a "Twilight state", wherein God provides a "Work Around" so that a totally Depraved human can relate to the Gospel, and become Born again.
I don't think you're correct.
If you can give me some references where you deduce that from a Calvinist, I've simply never heard of that.
What you are speaking of is Classical Arminian prevenient grace, not regeneration. In fact come Classicals call it “partial regeneration.”
There were some Calvinists who thought you could be regenerated and not know it—definitely not the majority view.
Yet regarding regeneration as bob noted To generate means to give life, to RE generate just means to give life again. |
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 8:15:37 GMT -8
I don't think you're correct.
If you can give me some references where you deduce that from a Calvinist, I've simply never heard of that.
What you are speaking of is Classical Arminian prevenient grace, not regeneration. In fact come Classicals call it “partial regeneration.”
There were some Calvinists who thought you could be regenerated and not know it—definitely not the majority view.
Yet regarding regeneration as bob noted To generate means to give life, to RE generate just means to give life again. Spot on brother ! |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 8, 2022 8:27:00 GMT -8
And so I, as an Arminian, accept a form of special election of some souls that receive a more unique call and grace from God—although not irresistibly—yet still, I accept the predestination and election and calling of specific souls called by God with a grace and purpose that not every soul ubiquitously shares. I don't think this necessarily logically means God does not want all saved, and in fact I think this brings a unique responsibility to guide, pray for, and help those not so specially elected, just as the nation of Israel was elected to bring spiritual light to other surrounding pagan nations. But at the same time—people seem to just knee-jerk categorize Calvinists as people who believe in unique election and Arminians as people who believe in "peanut butter" grace. Not so—there is room for nuance here.
This does harmonize and explain many certain Bible verses that speak of special election with other Bible verses that speak of a universal intent to save. I have tried to work out some model of corporate election, and I do think the principle of Christ being the ultimate and real Elect One is true and valid, yet the Bible also seems to specifically use election in an individual sense, even under the subset of Christ as the uniquely elect, and indicate some individuals are also elected in Christ specifically. On what basis are they chosen if God universally loves and is no respecter of persons? Here, ironically, the Calvinist would probably be unsatisified with me appealing to the same mystery they seem to fall back on—the mystery of God's unfathomable counsel.
Election is to calling, purpose and service
Israel was called to service
Paul was called to be an apostle
Predestination concerns the destiny of those who believe
They are predestined to adoption as sons
There is no unconditional election or predestination to salvation
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 8, 2022 8:57:31 GMT -8
Not to a Calvinist. "Regeneration" is a "Twilight state", wherein God provides a "Work Around" so that a totally Depraved human can relate to the Gospel, and become Born again.
I don't think you're correct.
If you can give me some references where you deduce that from a Calvinist, I've simply never heard of that.
What you are speaking of is Classical Arminian prevenient grace, not regeneration. In fact come Classicals call it “partial regeneration.”
There were some Calvinists who thought you could be regenerated and not know it—definitely not the majority view.
That makes me think of a song we sang at Set-free Ministry. Think of 100 bikers and their family's doing church outside Singing this song complete with hand clapping and foot stomping and a lot of shouting hooray, lifting up Jesus with big happy Faces. If you're Saved and you know it clap your hands If you're Saved and you know it clap your hands If you're Saved and you know then your face will surely show it If you're Saved and you know it clap your hands If you're Saved and you know it stomp your feet If you're Saved and you know it stomp your feet If you're Saved and you know then your face will surely show it If you're Saved and you know it stomp your feet If you're Saved and you know it shout hooray If you're Saved and you know it shout hooray If you're Saved and you know it then your face will surely show it If you're Saved and you know it shout hooray If you're Saved and you know it do all three If you're Saved and you know it do all three The good old days. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 14:06:41 GMT -8
Hi Obadiah, Like Justice and wrath, there is a conditional side of sovereignty, in that you must have something over which to rule. It is an attribute of contrast between two or more entities. I think sovereignty more concretely means that God plays by his own rules, and nothing can usurp that authority from him. Other willful entities with some level of sovereignty are not contrary to or inconsistent with his ultimate authority. In fact, I think it is enhances his sovereignty to allow others to, for lack of a better word, the freedom to buck his authority. Doug
Welcome, good to see you here.
I think the garden proves this God chose to give adam and Eve a choice. This is actually a requirement. You can not love something or have them truly love you back without freedom. this is my view is where calvinism falters. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 14:10:16 GMT -8
Preceding grace is not a Calvinist distinctive. But it is a "religious Buzz word" along with "Prevenient Grace" and Calvinist "Regeneration" all of which appear to mean more or less the same thing. Except that since the terms are denomination specific, they don't necessarily MEAN ANYTHING to the outsider. Agree, When we start arguing doctrines (ie calvinism, armenianism, premill, postmill etc etc.) we get off of true discussion. and start argung the doctrine. not what the person is saying. Sadly I have witnessed this in so many christian chat rooms. I am neither Armenian nor Calvin, I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. If you try to discuss the word calling me a calvinist or armenian, you would probably never understand what I truly believe. |
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 14:12:29 GMT -8
Welcome, good to see you here.
I think the garden proves this God chose to give adam and Eve a choice. This is actually a requirement. You can not love something or have them truly love you back without freedom. this is my view is where calvinism falters. Amen brother that was true in the garden and true today . God is love and He doesn’t change , He is immutable. |
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 14:15:59 GMT -8
But it is a "religious Buzz word" along with "Prevenient Grace" and Calvinist "Regeneration" all of which appear to mean more or less the same thing. Except that since the terms are denomination specific, they don't necessarily MEAN ANYTHING to the outsider. Agree, When we start arguing doctrines (ie calvinism, armenianism, premill, postmill etc etc.) we get off of true discussion. and start argung the doctrine. not what the person is saying. Sadly I have witnessed this in so many christian chat rooms. I am neither Armenian nor Calvin, I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. If you try to discuss the word calling me a calvinist or armenian, you would probably never understand what I truly believe. Exactly and no one can place you into their little box . I use to be a Calvinist , I’m no longer one . But I’m also not Arminian . I just go by a Bible believing Christian these days . Something similar to non denominational . I should work on my personal statement of faith soon . |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 8, 2022 14:20:00 GMT -8
Agree, When we start arguing doctrines (ie calvinism, armenianism, premill, postmill etc etc.) we get off of true discussion. and start argung the doctrine. not what the person is saying. Sadly I have witnessed this in so many christian chat rooms. I am neither Armenian nor Calvin, I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. If you try to discuss the word calling me a calvinist or armenian, you would probably never understand what I truly believe. Exactly and no one can place you into their little box . I use to be a Calvinist , I’m no longer one . But I’m also not Arminian . I just go by a Bible believing Christian these days . Something similar to non denominational . I should work on my personal statement of faith soon . Sadly, in most chat rooms I have been in, that is what tears down communication and makes it a not so nice place to be. its like you have people (anti-calvinist or anti-osas, or anti-armenian, or anti-pre mill) come in and they are going to set the world on fire by attacking people and never actually sit long enough to hear what the other is saying.. Then everyone who disagrees with them is pulled into their fire.. its sad.. |
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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 14:26:00 GMT -8
There's really only 3 basic categories. Original Sin WITH Determinism. Original Sin WITHOUT Determinism. NO Original Sin AT ALL. If you deny being Arminian you pretty much deny Original Sin, otherwise you fit into the beliefs whether you call yourself that or not. I’m starting to lean toward rejecting augustine and his teaching on original sin that did not exist in the early church until he came in the scene . He brought several teachings into the church that never existed . Determinism is another one of his doctrines as was double predestination. Calvin got most of his teaching from augustine. I’m no longer trapped by things I’ve been taught and questioning many of them . On the other forum I always refer to them as the doctrines of men . hope this helps !!! |
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